Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:

knas ser wrote:
So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.

Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.

The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.

Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.

If it is, then the store owes you nothing.

Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.

The response to both your first points is that the store can set the availability of tokens. Remember the aim of the store is not to make money from the table's per se (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), but to winnow out the true moochers and make clear the value of the tables. If nobody ever pays their £2 to book a table and the entire operation subsists entirely on tokens, the store still wins. Yes, ideally the store also makes some money from paid table time and it needs to keep that as an option open to work. But that's a nice to have which will help the store have better facilities due to being able to put a monetary value on the tables rather than treat them as a necessary evil. The ESSENTIAL part of the principle is that it ties use of facilities to purchases. A store owner will probably set the cost of tokens per purchase quite low if they understand this, because they want you to be getting those tokens. They don't want you going: "it's not worth me buying the Rhino here because I don't get a token". They want you going: "we're having a game tonight and I've been meaning to buy some Dark Reapers, let's just get a blister pack tonight.".

It's a tool to drive home the value of facilities to both parties and to separate customers from moochers. Which is good for both the store and the customers. Remember, only one party needs to have a token so if your friend is a moocher, they just tag along with you the customer. If you're happy with that. It's actually good for you socially if you're a customer.

knas ser wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

knas ser wrote:
So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.

Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.

The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.

Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.

If it is, then the store owes you nothing.

Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.

The response to both your first points is that the store can set the availability of tokens. Remember the aim of the store is not to make money from the table's per se (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), but to winnow out the true moochers and make clear the value of the tables. If nobody ever pays their £2 to book a table and the entire operation subsists entirely on tokens, the store still wins. Yes, ideally the store also makes some money from paid table time and it needs to keep that as an option open to work. But that's a nice to have which will help the store have better facilities due to being able to put a monetary value on the tables rather than treat them as a necessary evil. The ESSENTIAL part of the principle is that it ties use of facilities to purchases. A store owner will probably set the cost of tokens per purchase quite low if they understand this, because they want you to be getting those tokens. They don't want you going: "it's not worth me buying the Rhino here because I don't get a token". They want you going: "we're having a game tonight and I've been meaning to buy some Dark Reapers, let's just get a blister pack tonight.".

It's a tool to drive home the value of facilities to both parties and to separate customers from moochers. Which is good for both the store and the customers. Remember, only one party needs to have a token so if your friend is a moocher, they just tag along with you the customer. If you're happy with that. It's actually good for you socially if you're a customer.

The value of the tables is also for the store and not just for the customer. Having people playing games in your store is good publicity for both the store and the games it sells. Having people spending more time in the store playing games leads to more impulse buys from those people as well. Having free tables on the store is an added incentive for people to buy from your store instead of online.

As soon as you start tying the use of facilities to purchases you put pressure on your customers and you start losing customers as a consequence.

PhantomViper wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

knas ser wrote:
So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.

Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.

The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.

Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.

If it is, then the store owes you nothing.

Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.

The response to both your first points is that the store can set the availability of tokens. Remember the aim of the store is not to make money from the table's per se (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), but to winnow out the true moochers and make clear the value of the tables. If nobody ever pays their £2 to book a table and the entire operation subsists entirely on tokens, the store still wins. Yes, ideally the store also makes some money from paid table time and it needs to keep that as an option open to work. But that's a nice to have which will help the store have better facilities due to being able to put a monetary value on the tables rather than treat them as a necessary evil. The ESSENTIAL part of the principle is that it ties use of facilities to purchases. A store owner will probably set the cost of tokens per purchase quite low if they understand this, because they want you to be getting those tokens. They don't want you going: "it's not worth me buying the Rhino here because I don't get a token". They want you going: "we're having a game tonight and I've been meaning to buy some Dark Reapers, let's just get a blister pack tonight.".

It's a tool to drive home the value of facilities to both parties and to separate customers from moochers. Which is good for both the store and the customers. Remember, only one party needs to have a token so if your friend is a moocher, they just tag along with you the customer. If you're happy with that. It's actually good for you socially if you're a customer.

The value of the tables is also for the store and not just for the customer. Having people playing games in your store is good publicity for both the store and the games it sells. Having people spending more time in the store playing games leads to more impulse buys from those people as well. Having free tables on the store is an added incentive for people to buy from your store instead of online.

As soon as you start tying the use of facilities to purchases you put pressure on your customers and you start losing customers as a consequence.

I'm really not that convinced. As a customer, I know I would have tokens to use the facilities. And if I hadn't bought anything for a while I would honestly have no problem paying the cost of a pub drink for several hours use of nice facilities. I'm really not feeling pressure. Speaking as someone raised in Britain, I actually feel a great deal more uncomfortable pressure from social obligation and uncertainty than I would from being asked to pay.

I note there's quite a divide based on the flags by people's usernames. Generally, the British like to know how much something costs and be clear and above board about any transactions. I don't like to enter a wibbly-wobbly world of social obligations. If the table is worth £2 for a session of four hours, then I'll cheerfully pay that. If I just walk in and sit down I do not want the shopkeeper hovering around with the expectation I'm going to buy something. If I have bought something, then I want a token to show that I have fulfilled my part of the deal. I do not want people thinking I'm just mooching or taking the piss. Likewise, I do not want to feel like I might be.

If something has a value, tell me how much it is and I will choose whether or not I wish to pay that. Don't put me in some vague tip-toeing dance with a shop-keeper where nothing is clear and social obligations are a big ill-defined mess.

If I have bought something, then I want a token to show that I have fulfilled my part of the deal. I do not want people thinking I'm just mooching or taking the piss.

We usually call that a receipt, here.

knas ser wrote:

I'm really not that convinced. As a customer, I know I would have tokens to use the facilities. And if I hadn't bought anything for a while I would honestly have no problem paying the cost of a pub drink for several hours use of nice facilities. I'm really not feeling pressure. Speaking as someone raised in Britain, I actually feel a great deal more uncomfortable pressure from social obligation and uncertainty than I would from being asked to pay.

I note there's quite a divide based on the flags by people's usernames. Generally, the British like to know how much something costs and be clear and above board about any transactions. I don't like to enter a wibbly-wobbly world of social obligations. If the table is worth £2 for a session of four hours, then I'll cheerfully pay that. If I just walk in and sit down I do not want the shopkeeper hovering around with the expectation I'm going to buy something. If I have bought something, then I want a token to show that I have fulfilled my part of the deal. I do not want people thinking I'm just mooching or taking the piss. Likewise, I do not want to feel like I might be.

If something has a value, tell me how much it is and I will choose whether or not I wish to pay that. Don't put me in some vague tip-toeing dance with a shop-keeper where nothing is clear and social obligations are a big ill-defined mess.

Have ever even been to an FLGS or are you just talking about how you "feel" things should be? I ask because as I understand, they aren't very common in the UK?

In your scenario, you could have tokens to use the facilities, but you would still have to ask for permission to use them, no? Just in case they where booked by someone else or for some event. How would that be different from just walking into a store and asking the manager if you could use a table?

Why would the shopkeeper be hovering around? If the tables are free, then they are free, there is no expectation. But if you had tokens, then the shopkeeper WOULD be hovering around, because he would be forced to enforce the time limit on the tokens... How is that better for any part?

There is no vague tip-toeing dance with anyone... If you go into a clothing store and use their changing rooms to try on a bunch of clothes that you then end up not buying, is that an unclear social obligation to you? If you go to a supermarket and eat a bunch of samples without buying the product is that weird to you? There is nothing unclear here, there is no "mooching" involved. Free tables are provided by shops as a way to differentiate themselves from online retailers because they can't compete on cost, so they have to compete on the complementary services that they provide (and they also have some benefits for the store itself like I said in an earlier post). If the tables stop being free, then they are no longer providing a complementary service so what reason do their customers have to not buy online?

I think this thread has been one of the few times I have agreed with nkelsch. *watches for the sky to fall*

To be honest, I think it is best to think about the whole issue this way. If a shop is not entitled to your business then you are not entitled to a shop. Support where you play or it could go under and you could have nowhere to play.
People support the clubs they are in (have to pay rent, insurance ect) so why not support the store you play in.
I find the whole " A store is not entitled to my money , but I am entitled to a gaming space " idea to be a little strange.

That's my 2-3 pounds worth.

Bullockist wrote:
I think this thread has been one of the few times I have agreed with nkelsch. *watches for the sky to fall*

To be honest, I think it is best to think about the whole issue this way. If a shop is not entitled to your business then you are not entitled to a shop. Support where you play or it could go under and you could have nowhere to play.
People support the clubs they are in (have to pay rent, insurance ect) so why not support the store you play in.
I find the whole " A store is not entitled to my money , but I am entitled to a gaming space " idea to be a little strange.

That's my 2-3 pounds worth.

We're not saying we're entitled to play there, that's the thing people keep missing.
We're not saying we deserve to play there for free, we're saying we need a reason to shop there when these stores aren't able to offer the same sort of discounts that online retailers can.

knas ser wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Essentially, you boot my mates for not buying/paying and you'll find that I stop going there and spending my money. (FWIW, this was before online discounters, and my friends who didn't spend big or buy a lot were just careful with their money/didn't buy things on impulse/painted everything before buying new stuff/etc. They did buy locally, just not often at all, and when their armies for XYZ game were finished, they were pretty much finished.

Under my model, you can also get tokens for buying things. So if you are, as you say, buying stuff, you would never be affected by this. Only moochers are affected. Buyers don't pay. Non-buyers do. Those who are not willing to be either will go and drag down another shop.

I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is when you call my friends who buy more rarely than I "moochers" and make them feel unwelcome, you also lose my business.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
I think this thread has been one of the few times I have agreed with nkelsch. *watches for the sky to fall*

To be honest, I think it is best to think about the whole issue this way. If a shop is not entitled to your business then you are not entitled to a shop. Support where you play or it could go under and you could have nowhere to play.
People support the clubs they are in (have to pay rent, insurance ect) so why not support the store you play in.
I find the whole " A store is not entitled to my money , but I am entitled to a gaming space " idea to be a little strange.

That's my 2-3 pounds worth.

We're not saying we're entitled to play there, that's the thing people keep missing.
We're not saying we deserve to play there for free, we're saying we need a reason to shop there when these stores aren't able to offer the same sort of discounts that online retailers can.

Keeping them open is reason enough to me. I lived through the great GW influx which killed off all the small gaming shops (not that they had a place to game but you get the idea) in my area. Australia atm seems to be having a resurgence in gaming shops and I for one support keeping them open. Gaming life without FLGS is gak.
Tourneys , finding new players, pickup games, a central place for many gamers to meet up at once,a neutral place to meet a new prospective gaming buddy , impulse buys, a place to buy things you don't have to wait a (two?) week(s) for (if not for miniatures at least for paints ect), prize support for tourneys, these are all things that FLGS give you. Look after them , they truly give back more than they take.

Keeping a store open sounds good - but all too often the store is a Not-So-Friendly-Local-Game-Store, and charging to use the table is only part of that.

The places that I have seen charge for tables were also... not very good stores on top of that. (They are also all out of business. Funny, that.)

There needs to be a reason to go to the store - I can run a game at my home (and do), buy online, and save money - and not need to put up with some of the jerks that run the stores.

If it is easier to run the game at home, cheaper to buy from home, and the staff of the store are folks that I would not desire to pass the time of day with... then why should I be willing to spend the money to rent the table?

Sometimes nothing is better than something, if the something just is not worth it.

The store that did not charge for tables also has (note the use of the present tense, there) a friendly, interested, and involved staff, plenty of gaming space, and a booming business. (Crossroad Games in Standish, Maine, in case anybody is interested - good folks.)

Sadly, they are not as local as I might wish, but I do manage to get in and play there every now and again. The only 'negative' thing that I have to say about them is how much Magic the Gathering they have... and for a lot of other people that is a feature, not a bug.

They also have lots of events.

The last game store that was actually local went out of business because of a messy divorce - good folks, and their going out of business sale was where I made my last GW purchase. And, yes, they also had a free gaming table.

The Auld Grump

 Peregrine wrote:

knas ser wrote:
If it is, then the store owes you nothing.

Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.

On "entitlement". I posted this in the Dreamforge thread the other day:

==
My local game store gave me a hard time a couple of weeks ago when I asked (via his FB messages) how much his Army Painter brushes are so I could get my wife who was going to the shopping centre nearby to pick me up a brush or two. The result was that he refused to tell me how much they were, and gave me a hard time about "doing a price check on items under $15" - which was enough to

a) Told me that he's selling them for 2-3 times more than UK prices.

b) Make me decide to buy the brushes from TrollTrader on the other side of the planet. (based on both price and rudeness - either at those levels would be enough.)

I know he's buying those brushes off a middleman/wholesaler who is doing the same price bump that the Eisenkern and your stuff locally is getting - which is not his fault, and if something is close enough, I will buy it locally, but 2-3x the price, and rudeness clinched the non-deal, especially since I wanted 2 full sets of brushes.

He's been there for just over a year. He has in-store gaming, but I've never played there. I do buy paints, dice, reaper, sprays, etc from there from time to time for convenience, impulse purchases and to support him a bit, but I do still buy my big-ticket items from elsewhere - in the UK, and interstate - the same places I did before he set up shop. Because, you know, I'm not paying 20% more on a $80 purchase, or double or even triple on GW models or large AP/Vallejo brush/paint sets.

Personally I think the best balance is to have a paid system for a nominal amount that is then redeemable against purchases in your store. People can then decide what they want to do, either pay and play or get free tables when making purchases from the store. That way your not paying out maintaining the tables for no reward as the nominal fee can go towards upkeep or it encourages purchases in your store. I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.

Why does it have to be one or the other? All the stores over here offer nice tables with terrain ranging from good to amazing, for free.

PhantomViper wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.

Why does it have to be one or the other? All the stores over here offer nice tables with terrain ranging from good to amazing, for free.

It's not for free the cost is built into the stores pricing structure. Removing the cost from the pricing would allow the store to offer better prices for those who shop there.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.

Why does it have to be one or the other? All the stores over here offer nice tables with terrain ranging from good to amazing, for free.

It's not for free the cost is built into the stores pricing structure. Removing the cost from the pricing would allow the store to offer better prices for those who shop there.

That wasn't what you said in the part that I quoted. You specifically said that the choice was either to pay for decent tables or play for free on crap tables.

Also, setting up tables and terrain is a one time cost for a store that can be amortized (I don't know if this is the correct term in English), as expenses over a period of time. While it can be a tidy sum to shell out all at once, after it is done it shouldn't have any effect on the running costs of the store.

Games Workshop Amsterdam South seem to do this to. You can apparently rent tables with credits that you can get or something. At least that's what I got from their facebook page.

I have a hard time understanding some people in this thread.

Regular stores charge more than Online Stores, at least every store i heard of. In a lot of other markets, this potentially allready spells death for a store. Except ofc you offer a product of higher quality, since everyone sells GW Stuff however, this isnt an argument. So what other possibilities do you have? Offering people a place to partake in the Hobby, meet new people to play/paint/talk with and/or special Events and Workshops. Usually these are free to attend, because every person with a working brain knows: getting more people into the hobby = more money.

Now, if you start to CHARGE for these things, you are effectively taking almost every advantage I had over Online stores away, and thus remove any sensible reason I had to support you in the first place. This is extra stupid if you KNOW there are free alternatives in the area. I dont mind waiting a week or two for my purchases to arrive, instead of being ripped off by some manager who calls people wo HELP HIM MAKE MONEY "leeches".

And Im not accepting that "Token"-Stuff. Seriously? Now i have to EARN play and painting time? What if i havent finished painting the army i just BOUGHT from you, before my tokens run out? And what exactly is keeping me from going elsewhere, and telling everyone else I know to go elsewhere, because im pretty sure very few people appreciate being treated like this, ESPECIALLY with x-better alternatives around?

There is a TON of ways to deal with people that are ABUSING your store as a place to just hang around with not contributing. There is no reason to resort to bad business practices, that are efectually worse for the customers compared to other establishments. There is no reason to punish EVERYONE when its only a few people actually abusing you. If people use the tables or rooms for Systems other than the ones you offer, throw them out! Offer benefits to people who bring you money, instead of punishing those who dont (and also those who dont pay the arbitary amount you set as a threshold).

For example, if I bought an army, there is a certain timeframe I need to paint it, and also a certain timeframe i'll probably want to play it. In this period I probably wont be spending as much as before, a bit of paint here and maybe a Blister there. If I KNEW my store would be throwing me out after the arbitary time i "earned" ran out, I would've bought somewhere else in the first place.

Im pretty sure Wargaming is a market where the Store has to appeal to its customers, not the other way around. Also, everything that Peregrine said. Games Workshop is effectively trying its best to defeat itself at Chess sometimes.

Stuebi wrote:
Games Workshop is effectively trying its best to defeat itself at Chess sometimes.

That's a really good way to put it.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Technically none of us are profitable. That's the message I'm getting here, anyway. You can spend literally hundreds of dollars on mostly wargaming products over the course of several months (like I apparently do, with our store's new loyalty program we get a $10 coupon for every $100 we spend, and I've earned a lot of $10 coupons in the roughly 5-6 months it's been active), and all your money means jack gak to the store because you're still outspent by all the card gamers. nkelsch is saying wargamers aren't profitable enough period, moochers or not.

If you don't switch to Magic you're still killing your store.

It's a bit overstated, but it's essentially true. HOWEVER it has nothing to do with you as customers and more to do with the nature of wargaming and particularly GW as a company.

CCGs provide an almost instant profit compared to wargames. Additionally, players will always buy new booster packs (since due to rotations, you always need "new" and more cards), they take up way less shelf space, and they are a much safer investment.

Wargames take up a lot of shelf space to have a decent selection, they tie up a lot more capital, players don't need to constantly buy to keep up with the curve, and they don't have impulse buy-sized purchases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lutharr101 wrote:
gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).

Im loving the fact people are making assumptions about this that and the other, then freak out when the other party makes an assumption. How about people deal with facts rather than what they just made up to fit in with their view.

Our local club charges for tables and sells product. they are doing well. Some dont and are doing well. So i think its fair to say both have their place and you have to see whats best for your own shop

I can tell you that as a manager (not owner) of a FLGS formerly an anecdote.

We started out in a local mall as a kiosk selling MTG singles around Revised/4th Edition days. We did pretty well, and the mall let us set up tables and have a tournament once per month. We'd do a LOT better those weekends.

Eventually we moved into a storefront in the mall with table space. We started stocking wargames, continued stocking Magic and other CCGs, and also roleplaying games. We did an amazing business, way better than before. To be fair, this was during the heyday of Pokemon.

We moved out of the mall to a bigger storefront eventually, due to the mall trying to raise rent an unfair amount, and the desire to have even more space. We still did quite well, thought not as well as the Pokemon days. However, the owner didn't realize the earlier profits were generated in a huge part by the Pokemon fad, and wanted to go back to the mall, to a spot with no gaming tables. No matter how much we warned him, he insisted the sales wouldn't drop off and our customers would "remain loyal."

We made the move.

Our sales dropped to about 15 percent of what they were in the store with gaming space. Customers who had been with us for 8 years and bought entire cases of every TCG on release wouldn't even return our calls. We closed down about 6 months later.

I don't know how it is over there, but here the game store isthe hub of local gaming social acitivity. Everyone games there, they make their gaming contacts there, we've had people get married after meeting in our store. It's absolutely vital and it's representative of the health of the local gaming community. Without that space, I've never seen a store survive, besides our very first nearly 20 years ago.