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Design time for digital formats is far greater, and more expensive, than conventional artwork - salaries are 50% or 100% higher. Although this will become more streamlined as they produce more digital publications, origination costs are significantly higher for illustrated digital books. And, as mentioned before, margins on iBook formats are much lower. The numbers absolutely do not stack up. This is just another of your and Kroot's Chicken LIttle moments.

The UK must truly be a strange place for design. Here, those designers making the digital editions tend to either be making the SAME amount as the print guys, or they ARE the print guys. I'm not sure your numbers really hold up. This isn't the early days of the web where it truly was an arcane discipline akin to magic for those who didn't know it. Yeah, design costs will be slightly higher the first time. Maybe even the first few times - but then actual production and shipping costs will be lower EVERY time so yeah, your numbers don't hold up imo. Plus, I can easily see GW going the template format. I can see them making maybe two or three templates. Then all you're doing with each new book is copy/paste, swap those photos and done (my department handles certain of our ebook stuff in much the same way). I really can't see how you feel design time is that much greater ...

Well, we're discussing gradations of grey, but if you're only printing iBooks and eBooks you will only have digital design staff - you won't have conventional designers doig the thing then handing it over for conversion. It will cost more. You could argue it's only 20 per cent, it's possible it might be, but for most companies there's a substantial premium. Add in the slice for Apple and VAT, and the economics become a lot trickier.

Except if you read the rumor it says they will be keeping the limited edition books so they'll still need at least some of the print content anyway. Plus, again, once they have the first few templates set up it really isn't that difficult. Even if they set up a completely new layout every single time, this isn't anywhere near the difficulty level you're making it out to be.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
GW's collectors edition codexs sell too well for them to scrap them. This rumour is a non-starter.

In what way?

Collector's editions are selling so well that GW is considering to only offer the limited edition printed book "while stocks last" and the ebook version.

this is what makes me think this is nonsense.

Eventually it may well happen, but for now why would GW go through the expensive bit of making a book (Design, layout, type setting etc) and throw it away after a limited run if people are still wanting the hard version.

Eventually they will go electronic only (Or mostly with a few very expensive collectors editions), like every publisher will, but not in the short term, no more than music has gone digital only, and people are far more likely to only buy digital music than books. Digital only eventually is going to happen. Not any time soon though.

 filbert wrote:
I find it very hard to believe that even GW would countenance ditching printed material entirely.

I do find it possible that GW would make an app that tries to get around people screen shotting the 2 useful pages of the digital supplements and spreading it to all your friends.

I would be crying out in rage as well if they stopped making the printed books. If...

... the printed books were of quality. And I don't know about the rest of you but a printed book that is released and is instantly invalidated because GW is so cheap as chips they have no editing department, is why I stopped buying the books period.

Just look at codex: dark angels. Is that printed abomination worth even being on the shelves for some poor dope to purchase and realize it's completely unfinished with missing unit entries and wargear entries.

I've stopped buying printed product from GW and only purchase the digital editions. It is always up to date and the updates are incorporated right into the rules. I don't need to lug around Codex: Editor Fail and Codex: FAQ at the same time.
Give me digital everything. If I'm going to get ripped off, I at least want a quality product.

Erasoketa wrote:

 fishy bob wrote:

Rostere wrote:

 Erasoketa wrote:
Good luck trying to sell the games to 12 years old kids in Spain with codexes available only online and in English. It would be a suicidal move for GW here.

That's strange, don't kids learn foreign languages in Spain?

Where I live, a translation would be seen as condescending.

But where you live, you know, isn't the rest of the world.

Please, don't make me compare Spanish educational system to the Swedish one. Moreover, not to any nordic one. I might cry in despair. Yes, English es teached. Poorly. Gak level. We can generalize and say that most people in Sweden speak English. We can also generalize and say the most people in Spain doesn't. The percentage of people who would be willing to read a rulebook in English is minimal. ForgeWorld is not near as popular here as anywhere else, for example.

Most Swedes learn English because they have to, as only 10 Mio people speak Swedish and almost nobody cares to translate/dub for such a small market.
Mexico alone has 10times as much inhabitants, Spain 5 times as much, so every movie and major novel gets translated.
The quality of schools is only secondary.

Steve steveson wrote:Eventually it may well happen, but for now why would GW go through the expensive bit of making a book (Design, layout, type setting etc) and throw it away after a limited run if people are still wanting the hard version.

GW HQ still thinks that making Space Hulk limited was a huge success. WIth COdex Tyranids and Blood ANgels following and not getting new Genestealers and Terminators that wouild have sold like hot cakes, not to speak of a traditionall y advertised Space Hulk starter box in normal toy stores.

Collector's editions are selling so well that GW is considering to only offer the limited edition printed book "while stocks last" and the ebook version.

I'm not even sure that's true.

It's quite possible that GW prints about a hundred of them, and if they sell then fine, but if they don't they can just edit their site to pretend that they sold.

Bearing in mind that GW actually literally binned that ship-based game when the sales were too slow, they're not exactly strangers to stupidity...

Imo it's very likely that they would do this and their behaviour makes it very likely that this indeed is the plan for the Codeci. I'll just follow the other poster in saying that this would mean I can safely sell my Marines as I wouldn't be playing the ever again.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Right, the people doing the layout, graphics and design aren't earning any more, just the guy that converts it to the iPad app, and that's presumably because it's a newer discipline, as you said.

But with a smallish studio of writers, you presumably only need 1 iPad converter to however many writers and graphics guys you have, so the 50% salary increase only applies to a small fraction of the workforce. If it's 5 staff, then it's an increase of 10% (50% of 20%), 10 staff gives an increase of 5% and so on.

They'd easily make that saving back by not having to pay an outside printer, or having to distribute and store all the printed materials. How much would the warehouse space cost compared to the increase in the one staffers salary?

Well, we're discussing gradations of grey, but if you're only printing iBooks and eBooks you will only have digital design staff - you won't have conventional designers doig the thing then handing it over for conversion. It will cost more. You could argue it's only 20 per cent, it's possible it might be, but for most companies there's a substantial premium. Add in the slice for Apple and VAT, and the economics become a lot trickier.

For every major publisher, except Amazon, eBooks hardly wash their face. Seriously. Of course that's changing all the time, but the move doesn't make economic sense for GW at the moment. Yet, of course there are warehousing and especially shipping costs for printed books, but actual print costs have fallen recently, after a hike a few years ago.GW wouldn't simply throw away a valuable revenue stream, this story is just a masochist's fantasy.

They'd still be using the same people to do the writing, and the same people to do the illustrations. They'd also still be printing the LE books, so there'd still be a book layout. Whether they use the current guys to design a print book and get a digital guy to convert it to iPad, or they get the digital guy to design it for digital and have the book guy convert it to book I don't know. But you're still only talking about a small increase in the staffing costs because you're not paying the whole team more because the medium changes.

I appreciate they ebooks generally aren't as profitable as paper books, but you can't argue that they aren't cheaper to produce, and since GW seems to be focused on cutting costs rather than increasing profits you can't say it's never going to happen.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


Well, I do work in publishing - so I guess that disqualifies me, from your standpoint that those who have no connection with a business know how to run it better than those with experience of it. For instance, you're wilfully overlooking the fact that there's VAT and an Apple royalty on iBooks, because that doesn't fit your Chicken Little world.

I'm not overlooking that at all, but I believe you're overlooking that all their creative and production staff are on salary, that with the exception of one or two pieces, most artwork in codexes is pre-existing (and new pieces are only occassionally produced by freelancers I believe, again, most is produced by salaried in-house staff) and that any reduction in margin my well be compensated by the fact that every single codex will be purchased directly from GW at the full asking price.

Again, none of us have hard figures, so it is merely speculation, but I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that 50% of books are sold through third parties, especially with how dominant FLGS are when compared to GW stores in North America, so, based on that assumption, a move to digital would double the revenue GW receives from Codex sales. That would go someway to offsetting any reduction in margin per unit.

Now, to address the impoliteness, if you actually read what I wrote you won't find any "chicken little" from me. In fact, I personally don't believe this will happen for a long time, if at all, and as the owner of various gadgetry, it wouldn't have a huge impact if I chose to keep playing (except my preference for real books, but I'd live with that.)

You know, I recall when you first started posting, and being vaguely impressed that you argued quite well, even if you held what might be considered a "minority" viewpoint. Nowadays, I seldom see a post where you're not snarky, sarcastic, passive aggressive or overtly rude to people. Its a shame, I thought you had potential.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:Please, don't make me compare Spanish educational system to the Swedish one. Moreover, not to any nordic one. I might cry in despair. Yes, English es teached. Poorly. Gak level. We can generalize and say that most people in Sweden speak English. We can also generalize and say the most people in Spain doesn't. The percentage of people who would be willing to read a rulebook in English is minimal. ForgeWorld is not near as popular here as anywhere else, for example.

Most Swedes learn English because they have to, as only 10 Mio people speak Swedish and almost nobody cares to translate/dub for such a small market.
Mexico alone has 10times as much inhabitants, Spain 5 times as much, so every movie and major novel gets translated.
The quality of schools is only secondary.

Having the materials in English would help to the newer generations. But if suddenly movies stopped being dubbed (I mean in Spain) the movie distributors and theaters would collapse. Have you tried to speak English with many Spaniards? I'm learning it because I like it. But I'm 31 and I take classes. I'm not a teenager in a high school. Trust me, people doesn't learn anything. The level is low, and people doesn't take and advantage of the classes. Going to a concert and watching the singer talk in English and people responding all the time "YEEEAAAH" because they don't understand what he's saying is disheartening. There are several GWSs in Spain. And several independant retailers too. The number would decrease a LOT.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 filbert wrote:
I find it very hard to believe that even GW would countenance ditching printed material entirely.

I do find it possible that GW would make an app that tries to get around people screen shotting the 2 useful pages of the digital supplements and spreading it to all your friends.

Yeah, you can take screenshots of an app just as easily though so that doesn't really work

 azreal13 wrote:


You know, I recall when you first started posting, and being vaguely impressed that you argued quite well, even if you held what might be considered a "minority" viewpoint. Nowadays, I seldom see a post where you're not snarky, sarcastic, passive aggressive or overtly rude to people. Its a shame, I thought you had potential.

Aw shucks, thanks!

Once again... I note you take the personal tack, and totally fail to respond to the points that on iBooks, GW will be giving up 20 per cent VAT and 25 per cent or so to Apple, and that the notion of their dropping profitable print books, for digital codices, is simply silly.

We can continue arguing about the cost of producing digtial vs print books, I've referred to an example of a dgital and print production that's going to press in the next few days, it is merely one isolated example and anyone is free to pooh-pooh it, but it would be better to do so on the basis of real world figures, rather than simply what people think is the case. Personally, I make my living in this area, and I make more money from Croatian language books than I do from digital. The whole notion of this thread is ridiculous.

I enjoy debating these issues, and if the forum were full of people insisting the sun shone out of Tom Kirby's butt, I'd enjoy taking the opposite side. But I think on some issues, you (azreal) and Kroot, the fella who started this thread are actually looking pretty desperate in your insistence in finding the black lining to an imaginary cloud.

Hey, you got Azreal13 to get personal and snotty with you! Welcome to the club, we have cookies!

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Once again... I note you take the personal tack, and totally fail to respond to the points that on iBooks, GW will be giving up 20 per cent VAT and 25 per cent or so to Apple, and that the notion of their dropping profitable print books, for digital codices, is simply silly.

Oh, didn't know that in UK there is only VAT on iBooks and nothing else. And that printing books in China and transporting them around the world in containers is for free. But you are the expert in publishing

And yeah, some people take your constant insults personal, weird but there you are.

I've been on the fence about returning to this hobby. Rumours like this turn me off of it entirely. I am not interested in participating in a digital market, even as part of the 27 year old age demographic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarouan wrote:

For myself, if they really go on "full digital only" one day, that would be the time I would leave the game for good.

I can empathize with this.

GW treats codex's themselves like a collectors item that people are meant to "collect". You're meant to spend $500 for a limited edition BS version with a special bookmark. They won't give that up. Axing printed books would be too gaming-centric.

 Kroothawk wrote:
But you are the expert in publishing

It's tricky on the internet, I know, humour doesn't always translate. But if I work in an area, am I not allowed to point out the bigger picture? yes, VAT is charged on iBooks in the UK only, is not the UK a major GW market? Am I not allowed to mention a specific example that I've worked on? Is that less relevant than a scare story you've heard on the Internet? BTW, printing a book in China will cost around £2-4, less than the VAT on a Codex. Yes, I agree with you, GW shouldn't print in China, it's bad.

And yeah, some people take your constant insults personal, weird but there you are.

Sorry you feel insulted, as I have said before, I love your tyranid army, and I really appreciate your news updates. I do think this story is silly, though.

 Erasoketa wrote:

Having the materials in English would help to the newer generations. But if suddenly movies stopped being dubbed (I mean in Spain) the movie distributors and theaters would collapse.

Subtitles!

Backfire wrote:

 Erasoketa wrote:

Having the materials in English would help to the newer generations. But if suddenly movies stopped being dubbed (I mean in Spain) the movie distributors and theaters would collapse.

Subtitles!

Yeah, they work for me. But people here is too used to dubbing. Now I'm off-topic

 Bull0 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 filbert wrote:
I find it very hard to believe that even GW would countenance ditching printed material entirely.

I do find it possible that GW would make an app that tries to get around people screen shotting the 2 useful pages of the digital supplements and spreading it to all your friends.

Yeah, you can take screenshots of an app just as easily though so that doesn't really work

How I would do it...

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


You know, I recall when you first started posting, and being vaguely impressed that you argued quite well, even if you held what might be considered a "minority" viewpoint. Nowadays, I seldom see a post where you're not snarky, sarcastic, passive aggressive or overtly rude to people. Its a shame, I thought you had potential.

Aw shucks, thanks!

Once again... I note you take the personal tack, and totally fail to respond to the points that on iBooks, GW will be giving up 20 per cent VAT and 25 per cent or so to Apple, and that the notion of their dropping profitable print books, for digital codices, is simply silly.

We can continue arguing about the cost of producing digtial vs print books, I've referred to an example of a dgital and print production that's going to press in the next few days, it is merely one isolated example and anyone is free to pooh-pooh it, but it would be better to do so on the basis of real world figures, rather than simply what people think is the case. Personally, I make my living in this area, and I make more money from Croatian language books than I do from digital. The whole notion of this thread is ridiculous.

I enjoy debating these issues, and if the forum were full of people insisting the sun shone out of Tom Kirby's butt, I'd enjoy taking the opposite side. But I think on some issues, you (azreal) and Kroot, the fella who started this thread are actually looking pretty desperate in your insistence in finding the black lining to an imaginary cloud.

azreal13 wrote:

I'm not overlooking that at all, but I believe you're overlooking that all their creative and production staff are on salary, that with the exception of one or two pieces, most artwork in codexes is pre-existing (and new pieces are only occassionally produced by freelancers I believe, again, most is produced by salaried in-house staff) and that any reduction in margin my well be compensated by the fact that every single codex will be purchased directly from GW at the full asking price.

Again, none of us have hard figures, so it is merely speculation, but I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that 50% of books are sold through third parties, especially with how dominant FLGS are when compared to GW stores in North America, so, based on that assumption, a move to digital would double the revenue GW receives from Codex sales. That would go someway to offsetting any reduction in margin per unit.

No need to even compose another reply.

There's not really any getting around the piracy of text in short form. It's just so easy. Even if they were somehow able to forego the screenshot ability of the dominant OS of a device, you could still just line up a shot with another device, and take a literal shot of the screen. If that was something that could somehow be bypassed, which it absolutely isn't, supplements would still be pirated, as typing out two pages of rules isn't much work. They've done it to themselves as far as piracy goes, overpriced digital content that is easily pirated will be pirated. I'm not saying it's right, but it's the responsibility of a business to make decisions pertaining to market environment. Since they've gone the pricey text content route, they will forever suffer the pirates.

 Bull0 wrote:
Hey, you got Azreal13 to get personal and snotty with you! Welcome to the club, we have cookies!

Sure, I'm short with a few posters, but I defy you to find any instance where I've even come close to even vaguely flirting with Rule 1 where it wasn't instigated by the other party. As I've said before, possibly even directly to you, I'm an easy going guy, but if I feel you're attacking me, don't expect me to take it.

If you're genuinely feeling I've attacked you personally (and I didn't, IMO actually attack HfO, merely made a commentary on how I perceived he conducted himself, but if you felt it was a personal attack, my apologies) then I welcome the yellow triangle of friendship, I don't take my activity here too seriously, and if you're really feeling bullied or attacked (and I mean genuinely, not just I've said things you don't agree with) I'd really want to know.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
It's tricky on the internet, I know, humour doesn't always translate. But if I work in an area, am I not allowed to point out the bigger picture? yes, VAT is charged on iBooks in the UK only, is not the UK a major GW market? Am I not allowed to mention a specific example that I've worked on? Is that less relevant than a scare story you've heard on the Internet? BTW, printing a book in China will cost around £2-4, less than the VAT on a Codex. Yes, I agree with you, GW shouldn't print in China, it's bad.

Okay, putting all those chicken little insults aside.

1.) The authors of GW's digital products get fixed salaries. They are the authors of printed material as well as digital material. So all this higher pay thing is nonsense for GW, whatever is happening in other companies.

2.) The digital products I have seen have less text than a current WD, most of it copy-pasted. One digital page often has just one tiny paragraph of text. The Adepta Sororitas Codex has 40 pages with just photos copied from the webstore, not caring about proper description, not one pic of the insignia of the different orders (essential if you want to actually paint an army). Design in minimal, most pics are existing art, e.g. from FFG. No effort, not much content, not much design, just a quick money grab. And you can't tell me, that GW pays these low quality editors more than the established authors.

3.) In Western countries most things include VAT. Doing some research I learned that UK has the special situation of books having zero VAT and ebooks having exceptional high VAT (unreduced at 20%), but most other countries have VAT on books, which is due in those countries. VAT is also on all other products by GW. But in the end, VAT is paid by the customer and just a transitory item in the balances of producers and retailers. And the 25% to Apple are compensated by iBooks costing 25% more.

4.) Digital products have no printing costs and no transportation costs (books weight a lot). This is an economic factor. More important for the non-gaming GW managers is, that Chinese printers are prone to leaking. GW managers love total control more than revenue. So these are points for going digital.

5.) Keep in mind that this rumour predicts limited editions staying in print. This would be in line with the usual doubling of prices that GW loves so much. The 40 GBP for a dust jacket or the current reprint of limited Chaos Codices might be a further test on how desperate customers buy everything.

I am not saying that this rumour is true, as I am just reporting. But to me, it sound like something that GW managers might think is reasonable, even if it is not to us customers.

Additionally Kroot, don't forget the total elimination of third party/wholesale sales in favour of direct only, and, while not a financial aspect, the cast iron security against leaks, and we all know GW loves control!

... and no more products spoilt by lesser languages

 Kroothawk wrote:

And the 25% to Apple are compensated by iBooks costing 25% more.

Just a small correction: Apple gets 30% of the price not 25%. That goes for ibooks and apps in the store (as well as music and TV/movies on iTunes I think).

And the biggest chunk of of a books profits go to the publisher, the production/transportation cost seems (from reports) to be relatively the same (and low). WIth digital you pay the 30% agency cut to Apple (or whoever) but save on physical production/transportation/warehousing/retailer and other cost.

The main difference is that it's easier to self-publish online than offline and that some costs are reduced/removed. That reduces the publishers value proposition to the author and thus the leverage a publisher had against an author is reduced.

The high ebook prices seem to be legacy of the printed book model because a B&M store needs to make a certain amount per book to stay open while online infrastructure is more flexible in that regard. Publisher don't want to reduce their profits and want to keep the per unit price high. And for how that ends just look at the music industry.

The respective preproduction (design/layout//typesetting/illustration/writing) is a fixed cost. No company is going sell a book for one extra cent per unit because the need to make a kindle/ibook version (it's just another format, there is no need for magic pixie dust these days) in addition to the hardcover/softcover/limited edition.

There's no way they'd be dumb enough to do this. Not everyone has a tablet, iPad, kindle, laptop to bring with them, nobody will lug their desktop, and printing the book out will cost even MORE money and be crappier quality (cost of buying ebook plus printing fees). I have no doubt the game would die within a year if they went full digital.

The Privateer Press app is brilliant by the way. I dont know if anyone uses it here?

The books are cheaper than buying the print copies, and even better than that they are also transferable across multi platforms through a cloud library system.

So if I buy the Prime rulebook on my iPad, I can also download it to my Android device and mobile phone as well all for that one purchase.

Apps like this make good sense.

I hope GW make an app that is practical and affordable in this way.

AlexRae wrote:
The Privateer Press app is brilliant by the way. I dont know if anyone uses it here?

The books are cheaper than buying the print copies, and even better than that they are also transferable across multi platforms through a cloud library system.

So if I buy the Prime rulebook on my iPad, I can also download it to my Android device and mobile phone as well all for that one purchase.

Apps like this make good sense.

I hope GW make an app that is practical and affordable in this way.

A mate uses it a lot, he has an iPhone and Amazon Kindle tablet, he always downloads the Android books, because they're slightly cheaper, but can still view them on the iToy!