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Hey all,
I've taken a few years off from 40k due to life getting in the way of me painting and fighting over my plastic dolls. As such, I have a few questions about what to expect when I get back in to tournament play.

I've heard rumors that transports aren't as hip as before. Is the trend now footslogging?
Is assault really dead?

I'm looking at Necron, Eldar, or Csm as my main army. Can anyone give me pointers on how to field either of the three with success in 6th ed?

Thanks!

The Meta: There are currently shooty armies being favored, as the last three dexs were SM, Tau, and Eldar. Eldar and Tau (especially together) are considered the top Dog for now. Necrons, Marines, and Daemons are all close behind to wrap up top five. Transports are less popular, true, but not a total waste.

Don't think of assault as dead: Daemons/CSm can still do it well enough, but it happens that the traditional "shooty" armies have newer codexs. Tyranids and Orks are both incoming at some point soon, which may upset the balance of long-ranged power.

MC are in, non-assault transports are out.

CC is on par with shooting, but most tend to favor making shooting lists, which makes melee forces even better.

Agreed, don't let people fool you into thinking close combat is dead. it still highly effective. As the newest codexes are of shooty armies (elder are still VERY nasty in close combat), so you just happen to see more of them. You know, the flavor of the week, new stuff so everyone has to run out and build a tourney list using them deal.

One cool thing going on now is http://www.torrentoffire.com So we actually get a decent snap shot of the meta from a stats basis. It's far from perfect, but the top 3 is
1) Eldar
2) Tau
3) Daemons

True, anyone will tell you that, but it's interesting to see how far the gulf is from 3 to 4 (which is Necrons), and how 2 and 3 are pretty close, with 1 basically sitting on their own.

I'm going to go ahead and stay counter culture...if you are looking to play competitive then assault is dead. If you are looking to just play and have fun, you can assault just fine. If you are looking to do semi-competitive you can assault just fine until you come up against a maximized Tau list.

Daemons can do assault still solely because of the Book of True Names, if you are looking at assaulting with any other army you are going to be fighting an uphill battle. Nids and orks are better off shooting than they are at assault, I am of the opinion that they new codices wont fix it. The problem isn't their codices, the problem is 6th edition because it is an edition that heavily favors shooting. Assault and shooting are NOT balanced, it is all about shooting and assault is still viable, but it takes a massive back seat to shooting.

Despite sounding negative I still run assault whenever I can for my Nids but you will feel like you are playing a substandard list.

6th edition 40k is an exciting adventure for two gunlines. Don't worry about such tedious things as the movement phase or the assault phase. You don't even need to bother with terrain much of the time!

This newer, lighter, simpler version of the game puts you straight into the cinematic action. All you have to do is roll dice, and the winner is determined quickly and easily, with almost no player skill required!

Best of all, with your gunlines (especially mech gunlines), you will so quickly and easily tackle your opponents into submission that soon, everybody will be playing gunlines before you know it, making the game much more efficient. After just a few rounds, games can be decided with little more than both players whipping out their gunlines onto the table, and seeing whose codex's is biggest. You can even figure out who is going to win before the game even begins, and can skip over all that old, boring playing you had to do in older versions of 40k. Unless the dice decide differently, of course!

As a bonus, GW has released several balanced codices over the last few years, and then have turned around and given you tau and eldar - guaranteed to get you that sweet, sweet victory with as little effort possible! And you can even ally them together!

6th edition 40k is a new kind of game with dozens of new rules that streamline and simplify your choices. Get your copy, and start tau/tau and tau/dar-ing your hapless foes today!

Despite Ailaros' excessive optimism, the game is far removed from "gun line vs gun line" 5/6 missions rely on objectives, which requires movement. With shooting armies in the light, it makes movement that much more important. Fast assault units like Khorne Dogs or bikers are incredibly good. So Assault is viable, but currently a little trickier to use.

 jifel wrote:
Despite Ailaros' excessive optimism, the game is far removed from "gun line vs gun line" 5/6 missions rely on objectives, which requires movement. With shooting armies in the light, it makes movement that much more important. Fast assault units like Khorne Dogs or bikers are incredibly good. So Assault is viable, but currently a little trickier to use.

And if you play with the suggested amount of terrain from the book (ie a lot), Assault does a lot better. Look at the final bracket from a terrain heavy GT, 11th Co. http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/11th-Company-GT/1/leaderboard
Only one Tau, and it was the most mobile, most assault heavy Tau build there is (the Oseva star, which may be a redonk, borderline broken build, but it actually uses Assault).

Two Daemons (including the winner), a Chaos Space Marine list based around SPAWN (3 sets of them, at that), a Space Marine bike Army and of the three Eldar armies one of them is based around Assault (Seer Council, again borderline broken, but does all its damage in assault) That's a lot of assault coming out on top of a 7 game GT with the east coast meta.

 jifel wrote:
Despite Ailaros' excessive optimism, the game is far removed from "gun line vs gun line" 5/6 missions rely on objectives, which requires movement. With shooting armies in the light, it makes movement that much more important. Fast assault units like Khorne Dogs or bikers are incredibly good. So Assault is viable, but currently a little trickier to use.

This is nullified by the fact that players place the objectives. Basically it means that you can set them up in your deployment, shoot your enemy off of his before he can shoot you off of yours. So the game once again devolves into gun lines, unless you play assault but then it is in your best interest to place objectives in the enemies deployment zone...which helps them if they are playing a gun line...

This has been gone over several times, guys. Terrain helps gunlines because it hurts everyone else more than it does gunlines, and 6th edition isn't a game about objectives. It's a game where 2/3rds of your games are practically guaranteed to roll over to secondaries, and it's easy to make any of the remaining one third do the same. Plus, objectives only count at the end of the game, and strolling onto them with token scoring units is easy once you've nearly wiped your opponent off the table. Even if you can't manage a win by this way, you can easily force a draw on primaries, rolling it over to secondaries.

It's first blood: the game once you know what you're doing. Yet another thing gunlines excel at.

If you want to figure out what the meta is like, I suggest lurking around the local game stores, and reading/watching battle reports. Look to some of the people like Reecius of Frontline Gaming, jy2, and other popular competitive report makers for quality reports which often reveal what competitive play is like. The most important is the local meta though, because that's what most of your games will be composed of.

Eldar recently got a new codex, and they seem like a very solid choice right now.

We're playing different games then... If your whole army is dead and they walk onto objectives, you have a whole separate problem. It's very easy for two armies to hold there own and go to secondaries. Gun lines can do that. But gun lines have a harder time winning just on primary, which assault and mobile armies can do. To emphasize, mobility is more important than just assault. That's why Eldar are the better shooting army than Tau. Static armies lose games, because opponents can just late contest/claim.

Thanks for the update guys! Good to hear that assault isn't dead. I've heard that flyers are great (heldrake) and that most mech armies are dead. Truth to this?

 Vertebrae wrote:
Thanks for the update guys! Good to hear that assault isn't dead. I've heard that flyers are great (heldrake) and that most mech armies are dead. Truth to this?

Helldrakes are amazing, they defined the meta for awhile but have recently become less prominent as Tau/Eldar became the new hotness. They didn't lose power or viability they just aren't as powerful as Tau/Eldar. Mech armies are...not as prominent as they used to be but are still good enough to get the job done.

 Vertebrae wrote:
Thanks for the update guys! Good to hear that assault isn't dead. I've heard that flyers are great (heldrake) and that most mech armies are dead. Truth to this?

Actually, it's basically the opposite of this. Assault, unless you're playing that one demon army build, is certainly dead. Not only did we go from a shooty-heavy rules edition and make it shootier, and, in the process killed horde close combat in particular, while new transport rules killed what little of vehiclular assault. To add injury to torture, you also have to add in the new codices, especially tau, who make a mockery of close combat.

Meanwhile, fliers generated a lot of insanity, but they also have a lot of problems they need to overcome (not applying killing power right away, being vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, having mobility restrictions, among a long list of problems), and the helldrake is particularly bad because it doesn't offer CSM anything that they're not already bringing a lot of to the table (their whole codex is designed to kill space marines, they don't need an expensive, specialist tool that does little else but this). Fliers are mostly hype, and caused a great deal of hatred only among people who weren't already bringing enough anti-tank. Anyone who can handle a mech gunline, though, can handle fliers, even without specialist weapons.

 Ailaros wrote:

 Vertebrae wrote:
Thanks for the update guys! Good to hear that assault isn't dead. I've heard that flyers are great (heldrake) and that most mech armies are dead. Truth to this?

Actually, it's basically the opposite of this. Assault, unless you're playing that one demon army build, is certainly dead. Not only did we go from a shooty-heavy rules edition and make it shootier, and, in the process killed horde close combat in particular, while new transport rules killed what little of vehiclular assault. To add injury to torture, you also have to add in the new codices, especially tau, who make a mockery of close combat.

Meanwhile, fliers generated a lot of insanity, but they also have a lot of problems they need to overcome (not applying killing power right away, being vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, having mobility restrictions, among a long list of problems), and the helldrake is particularly bad because it doesn't offer CSM anything that they're not already bringing a lot of to the table (their whole codex is designed to kill space marines, they don't need an expensive, specialist tool that does little else but this). Fliers are mostly hype, and caused a great deal of hatred only among people who weren't already bringing enough anti-tank. Anyone who can handle a mech gunline, though, can handle fliers, even without specialist weapons.

No offense, but just about everyone is saying the opposite...

Heldrakes are still good, because Taudar can't strip its Invuln, its tough, and can kill a lot of the good units in todays games (MCs, Wave Serpents, Marines, etc) and Assault is the ONLY way to beat Tau and Eldar, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Not assaulting Tau is literally conceding the game. Yes, Flyers are in part overhyped, but Chaos, Crons, and Marines all bring legitimately good flyers to the table. Horde Close isn't great right now, yes, but both Orks and Nids have codexs of 4 years or more. The problem there is simply in the order of updates, not a problem with 6th edition. Guard aren't a Close Combat army, sorry. They're for shooting stuff.

Marines aren't as difficult to kill when new codexes have brought no shortage of low AP weapons.

 jifel wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

 Vertebrae wrote:
Thanks for the update guys! Good to hear that assault isn't dead. I've heard that flyers are great (heldrake) and that most mech armies are dead. Truth to this?

Actually, it's basically the opposite of this. Assault, unless you're playing that one demon army build, is certainly dead. Not only did we go from a shooty-heavy rules edition and make it shootier, and, in the process killed horde close combat in particular, while new transport rules killed what little of vehiclular assault. To add injury to torture, you also have to add in the new codices, especially tau, who make a mockery of close combat.

Meanwhile, fliers generated a lot of insanity, but they also have a lot of problems they need to overcome (not applying killing power right away, being vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, having mobility restrictions, among a long list of problems), and the helldrake is particularly bad because it doesn't offer CSM anything that they're not already bringing a lot of to the table (their whole codex is designed to kill space marines, they don't need an expensive, specialist tool that does little else but this). Fliers are mostly hype, and caused a great deal of hatred only among people who weren't already bringing enough anti-tank. Anyone who can handle a mech gunline, though, can handle fliers, even without specialist weapons.

No offense, but just about everyone is saying the opposite...

Heldrakes are still good, because Taudar can't strip its Invuln, its tough, and can kill a lot of the good units in todays games (MCs, Wave Serpents, Marines, etc) and Assault is the ONLY way to beat Tau and Eldar, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Not assaulting Tau is literally conceding the game. Yes, Flyers are in part overhyped, but Chaos, Crons, and Marines all bring legitimately good flyers to the table. Horde Close isn't great right now, yes, but both Orks and Nids have codexs of 4 years or more. The problem there is simply in the order of updates, not a problem with 6th edition. Guard aren't a Close Combat army, sorry. They're for shooting stuff.

While I agree with you about the heldrake Jifel, I have to agree with him about assault. New codices aren't going to help Orks and Tyranids unless they fundamentally ignore a lot of 6th edition and have their own little index of ways to ignore things like random charge lengths, taking casualties from the front, the lack of reliable ways to get CC squads across the board and then charge, the ability for rapid fire to move and shoot all day long, and so many more.

Assaults problems stem from 6th, not bad codices, and until they do something to change that there isn't much to be done about it.

But if assault would be good , that armies that can't do it would automaticly be unplayable .

If anything assault should be rare , just like in real combat . Or am ok with assault getting better , if overwatch gets a suppression rule. Each hit means -1"charge range .

Makumba wrote:
But if assault would be good , that armies that can't do it would automaticly be unplayable .

If anything assault should be rare , just like in real combat . Or am ok with assault getting better , if overwatch gets a suppression rule. Each hit means -1"charge range .

Why? Why on earth should some armies that are primarily assault based like Tyranids and Orks be subjected to handicaps like that when no one else is? I understand that you like shooting but this game has three phases, not just two.

Makumba wrote:
But if assault would be good , that armies that can't do it would automaticly be unplayable .

If anything assault should be rare , just like in real combat . Or am ok with assault getting better , if overwatch gets a suppression rule. Each hit means -1"charge range .

Amen. I don't get how assault was so over powered in other editions.

 juraigamer wrote:
MC are in, non-assault transports are out.

CC is on par with shooting, but most tend to favor making shooting lists, which makes melee forces even better.

CC is not on par with shooting. Quit claiming this when it is demonstrably untrue.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:


Why? Why on earth should some armies that are primarily assault based like Tyranids and Orks be subjected to handicaps like that when no one else is? I understand that you like shooting but this game has three phases, not just two.

No one else? you mean , armies that can't be as fast as eldar or shotier then static tau. Ah right now IG . why should I want that my army gets suckier to play with , so that someone who plays nids or orks can play his army ?

 Ailaros wrote:

 Vertebrae wrote:
Thanks for the update guys! Good to hear that assault isn't dead. I've heard that flyers are great (heldrake) and that most mech armies are dead. Truth to this?

Actually, it's basically the opposite of this. Assault, unless you're playing that one demon army build, is certainly dead. Not only did we go from a shooty-heavy rules edition and make it shootier, and, in the process killed horde close combat in particular, while new transport rules killed what little of vehiclular assault. To add injury to torture, you also have to add in the new codices, especially tau, who make a mockery of close combat.

Meanwhile, fliers generated a lot of insanity, but they also have a lot of problems they need to overcome (not applying killing power right away, being vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, having mobility restrictions, among a long list of problems), and the helldrake is particularly bad because it doesn't offer CSM anything that they're not already bringing a lot of to the table (their whole codex is designed to kill space marines, they don't need an expensive, specialist tool that does little else but this). Fliers are mostly hype, and caused a great deal of hatred only among people who weren't already bringing enough anti-tank. Anyone who can handle a mech gunline, though, can handle fliers, even without specialist weapons.

I have to disagree about assault armies being dead. I have a friend, Rich, who is featured on a lot of Blue Table battle reports with his Orks. He smokes most armies he goes up against, including Eldar, Tau, and Chaos. You can see some of these games on Youtube. In tournaments over the years, I can count maybe 4 times he has lost a game using them.

Then he needs to go to the big tourneys then. Because I don't see it happening at the top level of the game, so I have to be a little dubious.

Martel732 wrote:
Then he needs to go to the big tourneys then. Because I don't see it happening at the top level of the game, so I have to be a little dubious.

He took 6th place Nationaly in the first 'Ard Boyz tournament. Just watch him play against Tau or Eldar or Chaos with his Orks on Youtube if you feel dubious.

Martel732 wrote:
Then he needs to go to the big tourneys then. Because I don't see it happening at the top level of the game, so I have to be a little dubious.

I cited the 11th CO GT earlier in this thread. Plenty of the "big name" East Coast guys were there. More than half the Armies in the top bracket were assault based:

Edit: it's the most recent big GT, so it's relevant. And it's a 7 game event with what 90 players? One of the most competitive events in the US

Two Flying Circuses
A Seer Council (although his list had PLENTY of shooting as well)
A Spawntide Chaos Space Marines build

Then two of them had heavy assault elements

Khan Bikers
Ovesa Star

Then the last two at least had counter assault in WKs.

It's hardly dead in tournament play; especially as the tournament scene has started to actually add terrain.

Edit: Also as an aside Martel, my buddy ran MSU Raven there and won the 4th bracket, going 5-2. He lost to Seer Council and some other Eldar build. heh

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Daemons can do assault still solely because of the Book of True Names, if you are looking at assaulting with any other army you are going to be fighting an uphill battle.

You must have never played a Seer Council Eldar squad on bikes backed up by 4-5 wave serpents.

This song describes what jetSeer builds will do to yours. Its quite likely the overall best build in the game today.


Oh hey, look the OP has an Eldar army...

 anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Then he needs to go to the big tourneys then. Because I don't see it happening at the top level of the game, so I have to be a little dubious.

I cited the 11th CO GT earlier in this thread. Plenty of the "big name" East Coast guys were there. More than half the Armies in the top bracket were assault based:

Edit: it's the most recent big GT, so it's relevant. And it's a 7 game event with what 90 players? One of the most competitive events in the US

Two Flying Circuses
A Seer Council (although his list had PLENTY of shooting as well)
A Spawntide Chaos Space Marines build

Then two of them had heavy assault elements

Khan Bikers
Ovesa Star

Then the last two at least had counter assault in WKs.

It's hardly dead in tournament play; especially as the tournament scene has started to actually add terrain.

Edit: Also as an aside Martel, my buddy ran MSU Raven there and won the 4th bracket, going 5-2. He lost to Seer Council and some other Eldar build. heh

Most people that I've seen who say assault armies are dead usually play on tables with little or no terrain or have never faced anyone that knows how to run a good assault army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
MC are in, non-assault transports are out.

CC is on par with shooting, but most tend to favor making shooting lists, which makes melee forces even better.

CC is not on par with shooting. Quit claiming this when it is demonstrably untrue.

It depends on what kind of terrain is on the table. If you have an open table, of course gunlines are going to rule. You'd be better off just rolling dice against each other without the bother of setting up armies and freeing your afternoon for more entertaining pursuits. With decent amounts of terrain, the game becomes more tactical.

Case in point:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-kn2faAxvEg