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As a reminder, Hammerhand does not have permission to be cumulative with multiple casting in 6th edition. The only time Hammerhand did have permission to stack was at the end of 5th, due to a BRB FAQ that allowed all powers with modifiers to stack. That specific permission did not carry over to 6th as of the very first 6th edition FAQ, which did not include similar verbiage. In essence, the argument is caused by a hold over from 5th that is not adequately defined nor adequately restricted in 6th.

6th has a theme of modifiers from different abilities being cumulative, as seen in the Special Rules section and the Psychic Powers section. What is glaringly lacking is specific verbiage stating modifiers from multiple uses of the same ability from different sources yet used on the same target being cumulative. Given the nature of a permissive rule set, one side of the argument believes that unless specific permission is given, powers are not cumulative with each casting regardless of source. The other side of the argument believes sufficient permission is given via permission to resolve and the rules for applying multiple modifiers.

This would be thread #3 covering the same argument. My recommendation is that barring an FAQ or errata from GW addressing this specific issue, we each need to discuss it with our opponent in a friendly game or follow the ruling of a Tournament Organizer if in a tournament setting.

SJ

p68 BRB "the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative".

If you're casting Hammerhand twice, you're casting the same psychic power twice. It doesn't say that the effects of identical powers are cumulative, so no, it doesn't stack.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Permission to cast twice is not permission to resolve cumulatively. Give that permission. Rather than relying on the assumption that the power is cumulative to prove the power is cumulative. How can you not see that is a logical fallacy?

It really is,

Permission to cast is permission to resolve the casted power on the target.

if you have two instances of Hammerhand you are told to apply +1 to the Str from two things.

Page 2 kicks in and we get 4+1+1=6.

But your side will never understand this.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
p68 BRB "the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative".

If you're casting Hammerhand twice, you're casting the same psychic power twice. It doesn't say that the effects of identical powers are cumulative, so no, it doesn't stack.

Classic mistake.

"Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative." (68) does not mean the effects of multiple of the same psychic power is not cumulative.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
p68 BRB "the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative".

If you're casting Hammerhand twice, you're casting the same psychic power twice. It doesn't say that the effects of identical powers are cumulative, so no, it doesn't stack.

Classic logical fallacy called excluded middle. Try looking it up.

I'd say it's more denying the antecedant.

Maybe it is an exception that proves the rule?

It really is,

Permission to cast is permission to resolve the casted power on the target.

if you have two instances of Hammerhand you are told to apply +1 to the Str from two things.

it really isn't. You have two castings but you only have a single +1 modifier as the two castings aren't cumulative.

Do you not see that your argument is circular? You assume Psychic Powers are cumulative and use that to prove that psychic powers are cumulative...

 FlingitNow wrote:

It really is,

Permission to cast is permission to resolve the casted power on the target.

if you have two instances of Hammerhand you are told to apply +1 to the Str from two things.

it really isn't. You have two castings but you only have a single +1 modifier as the two castings aren't cumulative.

Citation needed.

See now that is not true at all, you have two +1 modifiers, one from each casting of hammerhand.

What says they are not cumulative? since we have permission to cast twice and then have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each Hammerhand casting...

Do you not see that your argument is circular? You assume Psychic Powers are cumulative and use that to prove that psychic powers are cumulative...

Not circular at all. I am saying that we have permission to cast and resolve a single power on a single unit (This is backed by the rules on page 67/68). There needs to be a restriction which your side has not yet found.

We have permission to cast the psychic power (And following the rules for psychic powers that involves resolving each psychic power)

"The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon. A Psychic test is a Leadership test...If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"(67)

We have permission to resolve each psychic power. resolving involves math, specifically a +1 Str, and since we are permitted to resolve both powers, two +1 Str's, we look at page 2 for how to handle this.

Asd your side has not found any restrictions we must assume that it does not exist and powers such as hammerhand will stack. Thank you and good day.

Citation needed.

See now that is not true at all, you have two +1 modifiers, one from each casting of hammerhand.

What says they are not cumulative? Since we have permission to cast twice and then have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each Hammerhand casting...

Permissive ruleset. You need the citation. What says I can't smash your models up with a hammer? We do not have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each casting. If we had permission for the same power to resolve cumulatively there would be no argument.

Not circular at all. I am saying that we have permission to cast and resolve a single power on a single unit (This is backed by the rules on page 67/68). There needs to be a restriction which your side has not yet found.

We have permission to cast the psychic power (And following the rules for psychic powers that involves resolving each psychic power)

"The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon. A Psychic test is a Leadership test...If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"(67)

We have permission to resolve each psychic power. resolving involves math, specifically a +1 Str, and since we are permitted to resolve both powers, two +1 Str's, we look at page 2 for how to handle this.

Asd your side has not found any restrictions we must assume that it does not exist and powers such as hammerhand will stack. Thank you and good day.

Resolving does not in math (because that is not a thing but let's assume you actually meant Maths which is a thing) resolve involves putting the power into effect. Resolving the powers effects. Now are powers cumulative eith themselves if you have any actual rules saying they are then we have multiple modifiers name page 2 becomes relevant. Please provide permission for the same power to resolve cumulatively with itself.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Citation needed.

See now that is not true at all, you have two +1 modifiers, one from each casting of hammerhand.

What says they are not cumulative? Since we have permission to cast twice and then have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each Hammerhand casting...

Permissive ruleset. You need the citation. What says I can't smash your models up with a hammer? We do not have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each casting. If we had permission for the same power to resolve cumulatively there would be no argument.

This response is fallacious, Permissions to do the thing are cited within the quoted post; your response is "where are your permissions?" Permissions are shown and you are not supplying Specific denials to that argument.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Citation needed.

See now that is not true at all, you have two +1 modifiers, one from each casting of hammerhand.

What says they are not cumulative? Since we have permission to cast twice and then have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each Hammerhand casting...

Permissive ruleset. You need the citation. What says I can't smash your models up with a hammer? We do not have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each casting. If we had permission for the same power to resolve cumulatively there would be no argument.

This response is fallacious, Permissions to do the thing are cited within the quoted post; your response is "where are your permissions?" Permissions are shown and you are not supplying Specific denials to that argument.

Exactly what Kel said.

I have shown permission, I have cited where we are grantet permission. Permissive ruleset is on my side in this one, not yours Fling.

This response is fallacious, Permissions to do the thing are cited within the quoted post; your response is "where are your permissions?" Permissions are shown and you are not supplying Specific denials to that argument.

In which case I apologise please point to the citation for the sane power to resolve cumulatively because I missed it. Page and para would be enough.

 FlingitNow wrote:

This response is fallacious, Permissions to do the thing are cited within the quoted post; your response is "where are your permissions?" Permissions are shown and you are not supplying Specific denials to that argument.

In which case I apologise please point to the citation for the sane power to resolve cumulatively because I missed it. Page and para would be enough.

You need to show a rule that restricts this, or all of these rules apply.

We have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each casting on page 67 "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So we know we can target a unit, take a psychic test, and if passed resolve its effects. We are also permitted to cast hammerhand again on the same target...

Right there is the citation.

We have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each casting on page 67 "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

Sorry I've read page 67 over and over but can't find the line that states when resolving the same psychic power more than once on a unit it is resolved cumulatively.

The power is resolved we agree. If you have multiple modifiers then you can use page 2 to prove they stack. However I'm still not seeing permission to resolve multiple instances of the samepower cumulatively. So please post that rule or concede that your circular argument doesn't hold as it is circular.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

This response is fallacious, Permissions to do the thing are cited within the quoted post; your response is "where are your permissions?" Permissions are shown and you are not supplying Specific denials to that argument.

In which case I apologise please point to the citation for the sane power to resolve cumulatively because I missed it. Page and para would be enough.

You need to show a rule that restricts this, or all of these rules apply.

We have permission to apply the +1 modifier from each casting on page 67 "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So we know we can target a unit, take a psychic test, and if passed resolve its effects. We are also permitted to cast hammerhand again on the same target...

Right there is the citation.

No, you have shown permission to apply their effects. Unless those effects are cumulative it will only apply the modifier one time.

And modifiers are cumulative, unless told otherwise. We are told the effect is a modifier, no further pernmission is needed.

However, nothing will change in this thread to the last one, as the permission is shown over and over and over, yet this mysterious additional permission, written nowhere in any rules, and created out of thin air, is created to show that an additional step is needed.

4+1+1 = 6, as you ar told on page 2. Deny this permission, or concede.

What does everyone think the word "different" from page 68 means in a RAW context to their argument?

Guys, why are we arguing whether or not we have specific permission to resolve Enfeeble on an already Enfeeble'd unit when I can't even find specific permission to resolve it on a model with two arms and two legs?

nosferatu1001 wrote:And modifiers are cumulative, unless told otherwise. We are told the effect is a modifier, no further pernmission is needed.

However, nothing will change in this thread to the last one, as the permission is shown over and over and over, yet this mysterious additional permission, written nowhere in any rules, and created out of thin air, is created to show that an additional step is needed.

4+1+1 = 6, as you ar told on page 2. Deny this permission, or concede.

I again hesitate to speak directly about hammerhand as I lack the proper dex so if your going to continue asking me about that power in particular I'll need to know what it says exactly. The BRB does imply that some powers are permitted to stack. On that note, it may be better to discuss generalities about maledictions/blessing using a non-codex specific power with no special permissions.... like Enfeeble

Would that be an acceptable shift for you nos?

WarOne wrote:What does everyone think the word "different" from page 68 means in a RAW context to their argument?

This one took us a while but it can be pieced together from different parts of the book.

"A Psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once each turn" Pg 67, BRB- Manifesting Psychic Powers, second paragraph.
From this we can determine that different casting of the same power are the same.

"It should be noted that different Psykers in the same army can have the same psychic power(s)." Pg 418, BRB- right side, end of the second paragraph.
From this we can determine that powers of the same name possessed by different Psykers are the same.

This narrows down the options for powers to be 'different' down to powers with different names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Guys, why are we arguing whether or not we have specific permission to resolve Enfeeble on an already Enfeeble'd unit when I can't even find specific permission to resolve it on a model with two arms and two legs?

I just have lots of down time at my job and I'm board at work right now

Nos you first need permission to accumulate powers before modifiers can be applied. In the case of Hammerhand the rule book tells us older codexes will have powers that are different to 6th ed powers, in this case we use thier rules. As Hammerhand has no express denial to be cumulative it may be cumulative just like it was in 5th.

As for Blessings/Maladictions they are not cumulative unless they have permission written into the powers individual rule.

 WarOne wrote:
What does everyone think the word "different" from page 68 means in a RAW context to their argument?

That, functionally, it operates purely as a reminder whenever a power ends up in a modifier , as we already have rules that state the accumulation - or the normal rules of maths, in essence - operates here.

as we already have rules that state the accumulation

Citation nowhere does it state that the same power resolves cumulatively with itself.

 FlingitNow wrote:

as we already have rules that state the accumulation

Citation nowhere does it state that the same power resolves cumulatively with itself.

Maths. And the fact that the game uses it.
Stacking is just a word used to describe something that basic maths already does.

Maths. And the fact that the game uses it.

Only in certain circumstances when we have permission to use maths may we do so. Where is the permission to resolve powers cumulatively (resulting in multiple modifiers and thus making page 2 relevant).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
p68 BRB "the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative".

If you're casting Hammerhand twice, you're casting the same psychic power twice. It doesn't say that the effects of identical powers are cumulative, so no, it doesn't stack.

Classic logical fallacy called excluded middle. Try looking it up.

The only thing I need to look up are the actual rules. You should try that instead. Hammerhand is either a different power to Hammerhand, or it is not.

It isn't different, so two castings don't stack.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Maths. And the fact that the game uses it.

Only in certain circumstances when we have permission to use maths may we do so. Where is the permission to resolve powers cumulatively (resulting in multiple modifiers and thus making page 2 relevant).

The very fact that there is a rule called "Multiple Modifiers" and not just "One Modifier".
There are rules covering the resolving of powers. There are rules for applying more than one modifier.
You're asking for permission for something that already has permission.
Will you then ask for permission for the permission? And permission for that?

I'm still trying to find permission to resolve maledictions on models with 4 limbs.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm still trying to find permission to resolve maledictions on models with 4 limbs.

Apparently you need permission to even look for that permission.
And if you find it you then need permission to use that permission.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
It isn't different, so two castings don't stack.

You're a fan of actual rules.
Cite this one.

 Bausk wrote:
As for Blessings/Maladictions they are not cumulative unless they have permission written into the powers individual rule.

This is actually false.

There is no denial of permission anywhere, so if you cast a blessing or malediction twice you resolve twice and nothing says they are not cumulative, which would be needed since we already have permission.