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One of the things that I find really cool about 40k is how all the races have their own different kind of tech and don't all follow the same principle. Tech in the 40k universe is all over the place and is really hard to place in terms of a tech tree due to how different everybody's tech is. So I'm going to make my own tech tree to fit the different races in and to show where I believe the races to fit in the 40k tech tree. I will also put races together in where I feel that they have tech that is similar and/or follows a similar idea. I would like to hear what everyone thinks do they agree or disagree and why.

Alright starting off with how the tech tree works, It will work in levels, level 1 being the highest, level 2, level 3, and level 4 being the lowest. The races fit in these levels where two or three races can fit in one level due to their capabilities being similar and where I will expand on why I put them there.

Level 1
Necrons
They are one of only two races that I believe to be able to be in level 1 due to multiple reasons. Starting off with the biggest and most obvious reason is that they beat the Old Ones with the help of the C'tan. The Old Ones being the race that created some of the most famous and powerful races in 40k namely the Eldar. Then they go on to destroy the C'tan(not really destroy just blow up into a million pieces and then seal the pieces away so that the C'tan never return). They have World Engines that can destroy nearly everything in their path and can destroy the galaxy with a flick of a switch. The last reason the I will go into for now is that when even if one lowly necron warrior goes down did you really kill it or did it just teleport to a repair shop half way across the galaxy.

C'tan
The only other surviving race to fit into level 1. These guys made the necrons into who they are today have only one weakness and have been shown to whether it very well. A shard of one these guys is enough to make one hell of a mess and a fully restored C'tan is enough to end it all. They are masters of the material universe and as far as I know have no real enemy. I don't think the Eldar can do much in their current state if a C'tan was to come back at full strength it is over for everyboby. Lets face it they eat stars and the souls of mortals to survive a being that does that has little to fear.

Level 2
Eldar
Now I know some of you are like no way the Eldar are as good as or even better than the necrons and they need to be in level 1 . Well I disagree with that and here is why . The main reason is that the Eldar were created by the Old Ones who were beaten and destroyed by the necrons. The necrons were also were weak from fighting the C'tan (which they beat by the way something no one else was able to do). Being able to defeat a servilely beaten opponent is not being better than them at all . Now on to why the Eldar are in level 2. The Eldar tech is a hard one to place due to the fact that they don't build their tech they grow it with their psychic abilities a very different process to almost every other race which is a really cool way of getting your tech. They have craftworlds the size of planets and they have created worlds. Their psychic abilities are second to no one and have the webway which gives them a very big advantage in warfare. They have created a chaos god (not one of their prouder moments, but hey how many can say they created a chaos god). The Eldar are a powerful race that even now in their slow extinction are a powerful force that can still shape the fate of the galaxy.

Dark Eldar
Not really going to go into these guys to much due to the fact that they are Eldar. So really these guys are on the same level as normal Eldar they just do things differently and with a lot more pain.

Tyranids
I put them in level 2 because of their tech being all biological making them in my opinion one of the most advanced races in the 40k universe. Everything the tyranids use is biological from their weapons to their space ships is a astounding achievement when one stops to think about it. The tyranids attack in huge numbers with MC that are horribly difficult to kill and that have very specialized skills that add to the overall deadliness of these creatures. They adapt to every situation with speed that is in itself horrifying as well as being very good strategists and top it all off with the ability to cause a shadow on the warp makes them a very dangerous foe. Though the true horror of the Tyranids is none of these abilities it is just how long have these creatures been in this galaxy, just how vast is the tyranid horde, and where did they come from. If they are from another galaxy just how many galaxies have suffered the plague that is the Tyranids and what other horrors lay within the rest of the tyranid horde.

Chaos Deamons
Now these guys are truly hard to place due to not having technology of any kind really, but due to the sheer power of chaos and how every race fears it; chaos is put into level 2. Every race fears chaos(expect the tyranids I believe though chaos is not good for them either) even the necrons fear them and do everything they can to destroy chaos. The chaos gods being creatures of the warp and the warp itself being the only things that can kill a C'tan and potentially destroy the necrons make it a prime target for the undead robots. Chaos might not have the tech of the other races due to only really making swords and enchanted items, but they are a very powerful race that threatens the very fabric of the universe unlike any other enemy in the galaxy.

Level 3
Imperium Of Man
The IOM is put into level 3 due to having lost its most of its tech during the Age of Strife and never truly reclaiming it long lost glory. The current times for the IOM are no better, but the IOM still has an impressive arsenal of technology in its SM and in its Tech Priests. Mankind still is able to teleport and is able to successfully navigate the warp for one of the fastest navies in 40k. IOM may not hold the most powerful nor greatest standard armament (aka the lasgun), nor have the most impressive tech on the battle field of 40k, but what the IOM does have is ease of manufacture and that is a hard thing to beat. Now I believe that in its glory days mankind was in level 2 though due to the men of iron and the eye of terror("cough" Eldar "cough" humanity fell. Though I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on to and that their is some powerful tech hidden away deep in many forgeworlds.

Orks
Orks are another fun one to place due to the mess that is their tech which ranges from sticks and stones to stompas and gravity weapons. Orks are put in level 3 due to the randomness of their tech and how their tech is genetically engineered in. When it comes to Orks you never know what you are going to get. it could be a group of simple tribal Orks from an invasion that happened three centuries ago or you can get the invasion from hell with all the toppings you just don't know. Orks are able to do a lot of technology feats that the IOM can do and some that are totally unique to them. Despite everything Orks can't do anti-gravity vehicles and seem to forever stay out of their reach, but I don't let that hurt them on the tech tree due to all of the other madness Orks are capable of.

Level 4
Tau
Oh let the rage begin . Now I know that there are lots of you out there that are like no way you can't do that they belong in like level 2.5 or something and that they have better tech than the IOM . Well calm down and read my reasons for putting the Tau in level 4. First off the Tau are a young race that have only been on the galactic stage for a couple of centuries(in terms of expanding into a galactic empire). The tech that the Tau have is impressive no doubt about that, but their tech is still far behind everybody else. In the Tau codex it does state that most of the IOM equipment that the Earth caste looked at was either inferior or to unstable to think about using. The thing about it is the IOM is so large that equipping its IG is easier if the equipment is easy to manufacture anywhere and everywhere and is literately idiot proof. Also take notice of the fact that mankind can put weapons like a plasma gun and meltas in the hands of guardsmen where as the Tau have to put theirs on heavy weapons platforms. Battlesuits are good, but when you look at the fact it takes the Tau a huge suit to get the same kind of protection as a SM (who by the way is able to go where a battlesuit can't) the Tau are behind. Also if it was not for the jetpack the battlesuit would be nothing more than a large walking target. The Tau also can't teleport and every other race can mange this(expect tyranids). They also have to use a gravity hook to pull their smaller ships behind their larger ones due to their smaller ships being unable to skim the warp. They can't use the warp to travel like the IOM and have one of the if not the slowest navy in the 40k universe. The new Tau codex also shows us that the tau are becoming more desperate for more powerful weapons. They have created weapons that are just as lethal to the user as to the enemy. Something that before wouldn't have been done. Another thing to remember is that they didn't create ion weaponry it was given to them by the Demiurg. So not all the tech the tau have they invented themselves. The tau are a cool race and very fun to play, but their fluff is full of and they are protected by plot armor which also has a bad habit of leaving out casualty reports and how ork and tyranid attacks effect their expansion. Just remember to remove the when you look at them not as a way to look down on them, but to add more depth to them its not really a good story when one just walks in and totally owns everything.

Well that's my tech tree and I'm very interested in hearing what others have to say.

I don't even know where to begin.

I completely disagree with the Tau being at the bottom. Their tech is not behind everyone else, you said yourself "In the Tau codex it does state that most of the IOM equipment that the Earth caste looked at was either inferior or to unstable to think about using." You make it seem like the Tau would be completely unable to give a Firewarrior a heavier weapon, when that is most definitely not the case. They could give squads flamers, plasma rifles, missile launchers etc but they don't because they choose not to. It's nothing at all to do with their level of technology. It does not take a huge suit to get to the same level of protection of a Space Marine, they have Space Marine sized battlesuits which offer a similar level of protection, such as Stealth suits and the XV-22. Battlesuits are not slow, even without a jetpack. They aren't like sentiels, they behave similarly to an actual firewarior in terms of how they move (they can run, grasp pick things up, crouch down etc). The whole point of crisis battlesuits is to be a fast, mobile weapons platform - why would they give Firewarriors heavy weapons when the Battlesuits next to them can provide a greater level of firepower and be much more maneuverable and heavily armoured?

What weapons have they made that are just as lethal to the user? The only thing i can think of is the Riptide, which only becomes a problem when it is overcharged - as in, that's not how it is really intended to be used. Ion weaponry was given to them by the Demiurg, but so what? I'd put the imperium lower in the scale, they may have some impressive and powerful things- but in quite a lot of cases they have no idea how to properly make more of it or how it works. You're saying Finding technology from the past and using it without understanding it makes the Imperium more technologically advanced than the Tau, who actually understand all their technology and are constantly improving it.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What weapons have they made that are just as lethal to the user?

Look at the old WD article introducing rail rifles, around the time of the Eye of Terror campaign. At that time rail rifles had the "Get Hot" rule like plasma guns, though this was more explained as the rail rifle's targeting system sometimes causing fatal feedback to the nervous system of the firer. The Earth caste were apparently having problems eliminating the problem entirely though claimed they had reduced its frequency. The Ethereal supervising the testing in that WD article seemed to accept that perhaps a few fatalities were an acceptable price to pay to get the rifle into service more quickly. In the article's story, the Fire caste commander was furious at the Earth caste scientist after the Fire caste gunner died test firing the prototype on the firing range. However that rage and objection instantly subsided when the Ethereal decided to push ahead and put the rail rifle into mass production, rationalizing that some sacrifices were necessary for the Greater Good.

Of course it seems the Earth caste did eventually get the rail rifle working by the next Codex, but the article seems to show the Ethereals (or at least one of them) willing to sacrifice Tau lives at least indirectly. It was more a statement on the Ethereals:

1) Having some extreme control, possibly due to other means beyond just ideology, as the Fire caste commander instantly calmed and changed his opinion to conform to the Ethreal's wishes.

2) That the Ethereals were becoming darker and being more willing to sacrifice other Tau, all in the name of the Greater Good (as defined by the Ethereals).

So it was more a statement on the Tau society rather than their technology.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I completely disagree with the Tau being at the bottom. Their tech is not behind everyone else, you said yourself "In the Tau codex it does state that most of the IOM equipment that the Earth caste looked at was either inferior or to unstable to think about using." You make it seem like the Tau would be completely unable to give a Firewarrior a heavier weapon, when that is most definitely not the case. They could give squads flamers, plasma rifles, missile launchers etc but they don't because they choose not to. It's nothing at all to do with their level of technology. It does not take a huge suit to get to the same level of protection of a Space Marine, they have Space Marine sized battlesuits which offer a similar level of protection, such as Stealth suits and the XV-22. Battlesuits are not slow, even without a jetpack. They aren't like sentiels, they behave similarly to an actual firewarior in terms of how they move (they can run, grasp pick things up, crouch down etc). The whole point of crisis battlesuits is to be a fast, mobile weapons platform - why would they give Firewarriors heavy weapons when the Battlesuits next to them can provide a greater level of firepower and be much more maneuverable and heavily armoured?

What weapons have they made that are just as lethal to the user? The only thing i can think of is the Riptide, which only becomes a problem when it is overcharged - as in, that's not how it is really intended to be used. Ion weaponry was given to them by the Demiurg, but so what? I'd put the imperium lower in the scale, they may have some impressive and powerful things- but in quite a lot of cases they have no idea how to properly make more of it or how it works. You're saying Finding technology from the past and using it without understanding it makes the Imperium more technologically advanced than the Tau, who actually understand all their technology and are constantly improving it.

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

Im certain this thread was simply made as an experiment to see how much rage could be mined from calling tau "lower tech" than the IOM

Really though, the current tau codex and all fluff clearly shows that the tau are far more advanced that the IOM, also, the tau actaully understand how their technology works, where as the techpriests, while not being so stupid as to not know how to screw in a lightbulb (although such a thing probably requires a small hymn to be sung during the process and a prayer said afterwards) have little to no idea how much of their technology works, or have lost the actual reasons something works in tons of superstition (see the "rights of activation" transcript, I believe from necromunda or the imperial guard codex perhaps? that literally goes through the correct holy way of starting an engine, and the correct way to hit it with a hammer if it doesn't turn on first time)

The tau cities are stated to look like "paradises of efficiency" compared to an imperial hive their weapons are more advanced, and their general tech is way ahead of the imperium, bar maybe the imperials best dark age tech, which they can barely reproduce and don't understand at all.

Really the only limitations the tau have are the lack of the same level of resources available to the imperium and the lack of the navigator gene or any psychic talents which hinders their ability for warp travel

All in all I would put tau at the same level as the imperium, or slightly higher

What? The Old Ones ROFLstomped the necrons. The whining metal toasters were basically exterminated but the second order (and unanticipated, obviously) effects of the weapons the Old Ones used created the enslaver plague which killed many of them. Seeing as how they were creating the younger races anyway, the Necrons can't really claim to have much of a hand at all in wiping out the Old Ones, if in fact the old ones are truly extinct, which I find to be a pretty unlikely hypothesis.

Granted, Necrons are undoubtedly on top of the pile in the current day, but to say they killed the old ones is to get the cart before the horse. To the necrons, the conflict against the old ones was an existential do or die crisis. To the old ones it was like extreme gardening. If and when the Old Ones return, it will be the same old story, and the necrons will be twisted rusting metal in the desert while the wailing laments of a million fanbois drifts eerily through the cordite tinted air. Tell me you weren't one of those cool guys that started a Necron army in 3e for 'the background'. Barf.

I don't think a simple linear scale works.

There are several different domains or parameters. There is the actual technological level (i.e. what is the most advanced tech this race has ever produced), the level of dissemination of technology (how accessible is technology), and the ability to reproduce & manufacture the technology.

The Imperium clearly has technology the Tau don't have, often stuff that interacts with the warp or involves psykers. However such technology is hoarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus and/or is not easily reproduce because they are irreplaceable relics or poorly understood so they are manufactured in a secretive craftsman style fashion. This technology then is susceptible to being lost if those few that know do not pass on their knowledge. The Imperium is also characterized by the sharp divide between the haves and have nots, with the have nots having very primitive technology while the nobility and Inquisitors can have access to advanced technology.

The Tau may not have certain technology that the Imperium has, but what the Tau do have is more widely understood and mass produced. The Tau also have wider dissemination with their cities being stereotypical advanced science fiction cities, while the Imperium's hives are a futuristic version of the mill town. The first Tau Codex has a Tech-Priest report that notes outlying Imperial colonies have committed tech-heresy for trading for improved (i.e. better than Imperial) construction and agricultural machinery from the Tau.

So if I were to compare: The Imperium has higher maximum tech, but there is little dissemination of technology resulting in a low average level of technology. The advanced technology is only available in limited quantities and is not easily reproducible or is even irreplaceable. The Tau has a lower maximum tech but what it does have is widely distributed, understood, and manufactured and Tau society's average level of technology is higher.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What? The Old Ones ROFLstomped the necrons. The whining metal toasters were basically exterminated but the second order (and unanticipated, obviously) effects of the weapons the Old Ones used created the enslaver plague which killed many of them. Seeing as how they were creating the younger races anyway, the Necrons can't really claim to have much of a hand at all in wiping out the Old Ones, if in fact the old ones are truly extinct, which I find to be a pretty unlikely hypothesis.

Granted, Necrons are undoubtedly on top of the pile in the current day, but to say they killed the old ones is to get the cart before the horse. To the necrons, the conflict against the old ones was an existential do or die crisis. To the old ones it was like extreme gardening. If and when the Old Ones return, it will be the same old story, and the necrons will be twisted rusting metal in the desert while the wailing laments of a million fanbois drifts eerily through the cordite tinted air. Tell me you weren't one of those cool guys that started a Necron army in 3e for 'the background'. Barf.

The Old ones "Roflstomped" the Necrontyr. The Necrons caused the Extinction of the Old ones. The Old ones did not create the Enslaver Plague either, it was a byproduct of them using the warp too much, as Enslavers are native to the warp. There really isn't any Hypothesis to the Old ones being extinct, they are.

Necrons were always stated to have the superior technolgy to the Old ones. The only reason the Old Ones won was their original war in Heaven with the Necrontyr, was their mastery of the Warp and Webway.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What? The Old Ones ROFLstomped the necrons. The whining metal toasters were basically exterminated but the second order (and unanticipated, obviously) effects of the weapons the Old Ones used created the enslaver plague which killed many of them. Seeing as how they were creating the younger races anyway, the Necrons can't really claim to have much of a hand at all in wiping out the Old Ones, if in fact the old ones are truly extinct, which I find to be a pretty unlikely hypothesis.

Granted, Necrons are undoubtedly on top of the pile in the current day, but to say they killed the old ones is to get the cart before the horse. To the necrons, the conflict against the old ones was an existential do or die crisis. To the old ones it was like extreme gardening. If and when the Old Ones return, it will be the same old story, and the necrons will be twisted rusting metal in the desert while the wailing laments of a million fanbois drifts eerily through the cordite tinted air. Tell me you weren't one of those cool guys that started a Necron army in 3e for 'the background'. Barf.

No I didn't and don't have a necron army don't plan on having one(all the armies I have are listed in my profile). Though I said the they did it with the help of the C'tan which could have destroyed the Old ones as the C'tan are as old as the galaxy itself up there with the Old ones and I'm pretty sure they are not coming back as that would mean hope for peace and a better future and this is 40k so we can't have that.

I sort of agree. I think that if they did come back their better future would probably not necessarily resemble what humans would consider the ideal future. They would see us, this primate species they had no had in developing, waging basically constant war against their children, exterminating them wherever we could. And they would notice how many humans were servants of Chaos. I'm pretty sure they would exterminate humans just like necrons actually. Or just nuke us back to Terra or something. But I agree, it would probably make the setting LESS interesting to have them return actually.

Iracundus wrote:
I don't think a simple linear scale works.

There are several different domains or parameters. There is the actual technological level (i.e. what is the most advanced tech this race has ever produced), the level of dissemination of technology (how accessible is technology), and the ability to reproduce & manufacture the technology.

The Imperium clearly has technology the Tau don't have, often stuff that interacts with the warp or involves psykers. However such technology is hoarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus and/or is not easily reproduce because they are irreplaceable relics or poorly understood so they are manufactured in a secretive craftsman style fashion. This technology then is susceptible to being lost if those few that know do not pass on their knowledge. The Imperium is also characterized by the sharp divide between the haves and have nots, with the have nots having very primitive technology while the nobility and Inquisitors can have access to advanced technology.

The Tau may not have certain technology that the Imperium has, but what the Tau do have is more widely understood and mass produced. The Tau also have wider dissemination with their cities being stereotypical advanced science fiction cities, while the Imperium's hives are a futuristic version of the mill town. The first Tau Codex has a Tech-Priest report that notes outlying Imperial colonies have committed tech-heresy for trading for improved (i.e. better than Imperial) construction and agricultural machinery from the Tau.

So if I were to compare: The Imperium has higher maximum tech, but there is little dissemination of technology resulting in a low average level of technology. The advanced technology is only available in limited quantities and is not easily reproducible or is even irreplaceable. The Tau has a lower maximum tech but what it does have is widely distributed, understood, and manufactured and Tau society's average level of technology is higher.

To be fair to the IOM it has been fighting for 10,000 years farming equipment is kind of on the back burner and the tau empire is a lot smaller than the IOM making it easier to have everything to a set standard. Also I believe that the IOM can replace/make power armor and other rare tech its just that they only do it if they have to not to produce more for larger use. Tech priest like to keep their tech to themselves.

If this is a tech tree, how is the Tyranids ranked high? Wouldn't that be considered part of their biology, not any technology they created.

Also your reasons for ranking IoM above Tau really make no sense. What does being a young race have to do with anything? It is the tech itself that should be looked at.
The only thing the Tau doesn't have is Warp Travel.

Other people already stated some reasons as to why, so I won't just repeat them, but I think your criteria for this tech tree is really inconsistent and misguided. You nick the Tau for being handed over weapons, but the IoM doesn't? I mean, they have lost all knowledge of how to make certain things, and the only way to discovered certain templates was because they found them.

Like the Land Raider Crusader. Wasn't that made because it was discovered?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I don't think a simple linear scale works.

There are several different domains or parameters. There is the actual technological level (i.e. what is the most advanced tech this race has ever produced), the level of dissemination of technology (how accessible is technology), and the ability to reproduce & manufacture the technology.

The Imperium clearly has technology the Tau don't have, often stuff that interacts with the warp or involves psykers. However such technology is hoarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus and/or is not easily reproduce because they are irreplaceable relics or poorly understood so they are manufactured in a secretive craftsman style fashion. This technology then is susceptible to being lost if those few that know do not pass on their knowledge. The Imperium is also characterized by the sharp divide between the haves and have nots, with the have nots having very primitive technology while the nobility and Inquisitors can have access to advanced technology.

The Tau may not have certain technology that the Imperium has, but what the Tau do have is more widely understood and mass produced. The Tau also have wider dissemination with their cities being stereotypical advanced science fiction cities, while the Imperium's hives are a futuristic version of the mill town. The first Tau Codex has a Tech-Priest report that notes outlying Imperial colonies have committed tech-heresy for trading for improved (i.e. better than Imperial) construction and agricultural machinery from the Tau.

So if I were to compare: The Imperium has higher maximum tech, but there is little dissemination of technology resulting in a low average level of technology. The advanced technology is only available in limited quantities and is not easily reproducible or is even irreplaceable. The Tau has a lower maximum tech but what it does have is widely distributed, understood, and manufactured and Tau society's average level of technology is higher.

To be fair to the IOM it has been fighting for 10,000 years farming equipment is kind of on the back burner and the tau empire is a lot smaller than the IOM making it easier to have everything to a set standard. Also I believe that the IOM can replace/make power armor and other rare tech its just that they only do it if they have to not to produce more for larger use. Tech priest like to keep their tech to themselves.

The IoM fighting for 10,000 years has no bearing on how its technology is ranked. It just sounds like you are making excuses as to why the Imperium isn't as technologically advanced as the Tau.

I can't take your "argumentation" for putting Tau at the bottom seriously. You fail to provide a single solid reason and ignore certain well-established facts, like the one that Tau don't do real Warp travel because they have no presence in the Warp, and can't navigate it as such (which has no relation to their technology).

I'm still not certain whether you're a troll or not.

For me it would be:

Tier 0: does not apply. God-like entities, reality-warpers, no need of technology. C´tan, Chaos Gods.

Tier 1: Necrons (with the help of the C´tan), Old Ones.

Tier 2: Eldar, Orks, Tyranids if you really need to put them somewhere, Humans during the Dark Age of Technology.

Tier 3: Tau (learning fast)

Tier 4: current Humans. Sure, they have lots of funny stuff, but they are just using something that has been there since forever. They are unable to replicate any of it, and do not know how it works. You are assuming that the Mechanicus knows far more than it seems. I think they know nothing: they press the "runes" as stated by tradition and "pray" that the machines work. They are "computer users", as opposed to the "computer engineers" of the DAoT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
Necrons were always stated to have the superior technolgy to the Old ones. The only reason the Old Ones won was their original war in Heaven with the Necrontyr, was their mastery of the Warp and Webway.

Which makes sense. The Warp is a spiritual dimension made of dreams and emotion, while the Necrons lacked a soul and were unable to access the Warp by themselves. However, using Heaven as a mean to win the war eventually turned it into Hell.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I can't take your "argumentation" for putting Tau at the bottom seriously. You fail to provide a single solid reason and ignore certain well-established facts, like the one that Tau don't do real Warp travel because they have no presence in the Warp, and can't navigate it as such (which has no relation to their technology).

I'm still not certain whether you're a troll or not.

Not trolling so sorry if it seems that way I just feel that people take the Tau way to far(I like the tau its just that they are not as great as everyone seems to think they are). First they have a presence its just so tiny that they are ignored by chaos and due to their small presence they can't navigate the warp and yes it does effect tech for you have to the engines to travel the warp it says so in the new tau codex when they talk about the Earth caste looking over the IOM Tech.

Also my tech tree works by the race's abilities not just tech due to tyranids capabilities and all their tech being biological having a living fleet of intergalactic ships that could have come from another galaxy they have impressive capabilities that few other races have shown having.

I'm not making excuses as to why the tau are not higher ranked than the IOM I put out good reasons as to why they are level 4 and those reasons involve their tech it is still behind in some big areas. Of course the tau are learning they advance their tech as they go. The IOM can only advance once it rediscovers what it has lost. I know fluff wise it tends to put tech priests as morons who just chant and things work, but come on these guys have to know what they are doing, because chanting is only going to go so far and I just don't buy that part of the fluff it just doesn't make much sense. I will buy that due the laws of the IOM it has put the tech priests in a bind where they can only reproduced STC designs. That makes sense and consent warfare does play apart in this where parts of the empire can only produce certain things due to forgeworlds being destroyed or lost and that other tech priests don't want to share their tech. Also if I'm in a consent state of war I'm not really going to worry about the tech level of my citizens. The tau don't have this problem due to how small their empire is and that the Earth caste is willing to share with itself.

Another thing is that this is all my opinion and how I interrupt the fluff. The tech tree is designed to take in all of what a race can or cannot do. Not trying to troll or cause tau fan boy rage, but looking for discussion on the matter of where every race roughly sits in a tech tree. Also I like to tone down the fluff as GW who writes the fluff is a business and is trying to sell models.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

I read the rest of your reasoning for the Tau, i just didn't comment on all of them. Having no real access to the Warp is not a technological issue though.

Tech priests likely do have serious firepower hidden away, but many of the more powerful devices used by the Imperium are completely unreplaceable once they are lost. Standard equipment like Lasguns they know how to make, but the more powerful things you are claiming makes them more technologically advanced they most certainly do not understand. Your list is for who is the most advanced technologically, not who has the most powerful weapons.

I have not seen anything about Tau anti-gravity requiring jet engines - where are the engines on Tau drones? The Imperial does not have Anti-gravity that can move without thrusters of some sort, either. It can float - but it will be unable to move.

You make it seem like the Tau fight the same way as everyone else, when they don't. They would not put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of Firewarriors because there is no need for that when the Battlesuits supporting them can do that job much better.

I've already mentioned the Riptide. The Riptide is perfectly safe, the reactor only has a few problems when it is overchanged. Overcharging it means it is being pushed beyond the safe limits. That is not to do with it being bad technology, that's the user deciding to risk it and get more power out of it despite the chance it could harm them. The same thing with the Ion rifle. They are both experimental as well.

As someone else has said, none of your reasons for putting Tau last really make sense or hold together. Not having the most powerful technology does not mean they have the worst technology.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

I read the rest of your reasoning for the Tau, i just didn't comment on all of them. Having no real access to the Warp is not a technological issue though.

Tech priests likely do have serious firepower hidden away, but many of the more powerful devices used by the Imperium are completely unreplaceable once they are lost. Standard equipment like Lasguns they know how to make, but the more powerful things you are claiming makes them more technologically advanced they most certainly do not understand. Your list is for who is the most advanced technologically, not who has the most powerful weapons.

I have not seen anything about Tau anti-gravity requiring jet engines - where are the engines on Tau drones? The Imperial does not have Anti-gravity that can move without thrusters of some sort, either. It can float - but it will be unable to move.

You make it seem like the Tau fight the same way as everyone else, when they don't. They would not put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of Firewarriors because there is no need for that when the Battlesuits supporting them can do that job much better.

I've already mentioned the Riptide. The Riptide is perfectly safe, the reactor only has a few problems when it is overchanged. Overcharging it means it is being pushed beyond the safe limits. That is not to do with it being bad technology, that's the user deciding to risk it and get more power out of it despite the chance it could harm them. The same thing with the Ion rifle. They are both experimental as well.

As someone else has said, none of your reasons for putting Tau last really make sense or hold together. Not having the most powerful technology does not mean they have the worst technology.

riptides are not safe IOM plasma guns are safer with a 2+ save for overcharge vs the riptide's 3+ also tau, tank engines are talked about in the tau codex under the devilfish. also my tech tree takes in account all of the abilities of the races like psychic abilities, speed and power of their navy, and did they invent all the tech they use. While toning down the fluff that was written by a business that sells toy soldiers.

I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

thank you i love this

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

Actually this is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to Orks as although some of their tech can baffle other races in their attempts to comprehend their inner workings like Shokk Attack Guns this doesn't mean that their tech only works in the hands of the Orks; it just works BETTER or as they're supposed/imagined to be within reason. So a shoota still has to work in the fundamental sense of having firing mechanisms and ammo just every other gun and not just a being a pipe with duct-taped nails on it. The psychic resonance generated by Orks which you describe as "faith" is what allows the shoota and other weaponry+vehicles to work in good ramshackle Orky consistency as others who try to drive/utilize them suffer things that the psychic resonance from the Orks prevent such as frequent jamming or overheating for guns and engine failures for vehicles.

There's several books where non-Orks manage to utilize Ork tech, not to the best of their abilities but it shows this is still very possible. The novel Siege of Castellax is one example as well as in a couple of RPG's where you can pick up and use Ork weaponry but they are much less effective in the hands of a non-Ork.

 da001 wrote:
For me it would be:

Tier 0: does not apply. God-like entities, reality-warpers, no need of technology. C´tan, Chaos Gods.

Tier 1: Necrons (with the help of the C´tan), Old Ones.

Tier 2: Eldar, Orks, Tyranids if you really need to put them somewhere, Humans during the Dark Age of Technology.

Tier 3: Tau (learning fast)

Tier 4: current Humans. Sure, they have lots of funny stuff, but they are just using something that has been there since forever. They are unable to replicate any of it, and do not know how it works. You are assuming that the Mechanicus knows far more than it seems. I think they know nothing: they press the "runes" as stated by tradition and "pray" that the machines work. They are "computer users", as opposed to the "computer engineers" of the DAoT.


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 Sasori wrote:
Necrons were always stated to have the superior technolgy to the Old ones. The only reason the Old Ones won was their original war in Heaven with the Necrontyr, was their mastery of the Warp and Webway.

Which makes sense. The Warp is a spiritual dimension made of dreams and emotion, while the Necrons lacked a soul and were unable to access the Warp by themselves. However, using Heaven as a mean to win the war eventually turned it into Hell.

Exalted, this makes a lot more sense. Chaos and C'tan are reality warpers, and thus have the best technology over everyone else.

Also I'd put Orks at Tau level or near them. While their logistical tech is bloody amazing, its not refined compared to anyone else and typically looses to counterparts in the same class of weapon or vehicle. While their tech is great logistically and extremely efficient- it'll typically lose on a 1v1 with something of the same class IMO.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

I read the rest of your reasoning for the Tau, i just didn't comment on all of them. Having no real access to the Warp is not a technological issue though.

Tech priests likely do have serious firepower hidden away, but many of the more powerful devices used by the Imperium are completely unreplaceable once they are lost. Standard equipment like Lasguns they know how to make, but the more powerful things you are claiming makes them more technologically advanced they most certainly do not understand. Your list is for who is the most advanced technologically, not who has the most powerful weapons.

I have not seen anything about Tau anti-gravity requiring jet engines - where are the engines on Tau drones? The Imperial does not have Anti-gravity that can move without thrusters of some sort, either. It can float - but it will be unable to move.

You make it seem like the Tau fight the same way as everyone else, when they don't. They would not put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of Firewarriors because there is no need for that when the Battlesuits supporting them can do that job much better.

I've already mentioned the Riptide. The Riptide is perfectly safe, the reactor only has a few problems when it is overchanged. Overcharging it means it is being pushed beyond the safe limits. That is not to do with it being bad technology, that's the user deciding to risk it and get more power out of it despite the chance it could harm them. The same thing with the Ion rifle. They are both experimental as well.

As someone else has said, none of your reasons for putting Tau last really make sense or hold together. Not having the most powerful technology does not mean they have the worst technology.

riptides are not safe IOM plasma guns are safer with a 2+ save for overcharge vs the riptide's 3+ also tau, tank engines are talked about in the tau codex under the devilfish. also my tech tree takes in account all of the abilities of the races like psychic abilities, speed and power of their navy, and did they invent all the tech they use. While toning down the fluff that was written by a business that sells toy soldiers.

The Tau do use thrusters to move their anti-grav, but these are mentioned to be more powerful than their imperial equivalents. Tau do actually have a quite powerful navy, it's just that for a while, before they built craft specifically meant for fighting, they only used retrofitted merchant vessels. The riptide is very safe, as long as you don't overcharge it (as previously stated). Psychic abilities are most definitely NOT technology, and should not be considered in a Technology tree (and besides, the Tau have nissicar for that). Tau invented all of their technology, accept for ion technology, which they got from durmeug mining lasers.

 Grimskul wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

Actually this is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to Orks as although some of their tech can baffle other races in their attempts to comprehend their inner workings like Shokk Attack Guns this doesn't mean that their tech only works in the hands of the Orks; it just works BETTER or as they're supposed/imagined to be within reason. So a shoota still has to work in the fundamental sense of having firing mechanisms and ammo just every other gun and not just a being a pipe with duct-taped nails on it. The psychic resonance generated by Orks which you describe as "faith" is what allows the shoota and other weaponry+vehicles to work in good ramshackle Orky consistency as others who try to drive/utilize them suffer things that the psychic resonance from the Orks prevent such as frequent jamming or overheating for guns and engine failures for vehicles.

There's several books where non-Orks manage to utilize Ork tech, not to the best of their abilities but it shows this is still very possible. The novel Siege of Castellax is one example as well as in a couple of RPG's where you can pick up and use Ork weaponry but they are much less effective in the hands of a non-Ork.

I picture ork guns to be completely disjointed and making no sense what-so-ever. Like a trigger that doesn't pull anything but still fires the gun or a bunch of scrap that's somehow magnetized by Ork WAAAGH! and if an IG picked it up and tried to fire it, it would just fall to pieces. Or a Trukk that explodes when someone non-Orky tries to drive it because they gotta put it in WAAAAGH! first, then 2nd WAAAAGH!!!

Loves me some Orkz sometimes. Too bad I could never be one.

The correct tech "tree" (which is really a scale, not a tree):

Level 1:

Necrons: top end of 40k technology, short of literal gods. Necron raw firepower/defense/etc numbers equal or beat everyone else, they have tons of fancy tricks, and they (as a whole) have a rational view of technology as a useful tool.

Eldar/DE: near the top end. Maybe not quite Necron level, but clearly a tier above the next best factions.

Level 2:

Tau: superior 1v1 to most opponents, but still have a bit of learning to do before they catch up to the Necrons or Eldar. Also benefit from having a rational view of progress in science/engineering, and enough pragmatism to do what works instead of treating everything like a religion.

Level 3:

Imperium: marginally better than modern equipment in raw numbers, but unbelievably awful engineering. The LRBT embodies the state of the Imperium: a WWI tank design with laser guns bolted onto the hull, and nobody knows how to fix all of its stupid design elements. The few priceless and irreplaceable relics the Imperium has are too rare to be relevant in a large-scale war, and much of their technology has serious drawbacks (for example, FTL that requires a literal trip into hell). The Imperium's complete lack of understanding of how science and engineering work ensure that what few advantages they do have will always be thrown away.

Traitors: take the Imperium and make it a bit worse.

Modern world: we lose on raw numbers, but absolutely dominate in areas like computers or anything to do with science or engineering.

Level 4:

Orks: it's magic. Take away the magic and you're left with an enemy the average real-world military could handle without any real effort.

Level 5:

Demons: literal magic, nothing more. Take away the magic and you're left with nothing.

Level 6:

Tyranids: take away the arbitrary "I'm the author, I say Tyranids work" and they instantly collapse under the sheer weight of their own idiocy. Their entire existence is based on authors who don't know how thermodynamics or genetics/evolution work, and their "technology" consists of "I'm the author, I say the Tyranids get to do X".


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 Gunhead1 wrote:
because chanting is only going to go so far and I just don't buy that part of the fluff it just doesn't make much sense.

The most reasonable explanation here is that the Imperium has turned the blueprints and user's manual into a sacred text. So when the techpriest chants the ritual of awakening the gunnery spirit what he's really doing is just going step by step through the user's manual "rebooting the fire control computer" section with a bunch of candles and sacred oils and stuff. Same with manufacturing, you don't need to understand how something works to follow the step by step directions to build it. And this fits perfectly with what we see in the fluff: the Imperium is capable of operating technology it has already, but utterly unable to understand it or do anything to improve it or modify it beyond straightforward things like swapping the gun on a tank.

Also if I'm in a consent state of war I'm not really going to worry about the tech level of my citizens.

Sure you are. Automated factories are much more efficient than having uneducated slave labor. Reasonable population control is much more efficient than having hive cities that require vast amounts of imported food (occupying valuable transport ships). Having a decent standard of living is much more efficient than having constant wars to put down rebellions among the unhappy population of your hell-cities. The fact that the Imperium has to resort to such crude methods is pretty clear evidence that it has no better option.

and yes it does effect tech for you have to the engines to travel the warp it says so in the new tau codex when they talk about the Earth caste looking over the IOM Tech

On the other hand Tau FTL doesn't require a literal trip into hell and suffer from problems with demons eating your ship, important fleets arriving thousands of years before or after the battle they were needed for, etc. Tau FTL may be slow but at least it's safe and consistent.


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 Gunhead1 wrote:
The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system.

Tau have the same system as the Imperium if you compare the models: antigravity to lift the vehicle off the ground, engines to give forward thrust.

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.


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 Gunhead1 wrote:
Battlesuits are good, but when you look at the fact it takes the Tau a huge suit to get the same kind of protection as a SM (who by the way is able to go where a battlesuit can't) the Tau are behind. Also if it was not for the jetpack the battlesuit would be nothing more than a large walking target.

You're ignoring the fact that battlesuits are for much more than just protection. Compared to power armor the battlesuit gives better protection (+1 T, +1 W, 2+ or 3+ armor save), integrated heavy weapons (including fire control, power/ammo supply, etc) and a jet pack. This comparison makes about as much sense as comparing power armor to terminator armor and assuming that the terminator armor is low-tech garbage because it's so bulky.

To Peregrine
I like the points that you have, but I disagree with you in a few areas. First off when it comes to the tyranids I going by the current codex and these guys are a very serious threat and have only been beaten most of the time in very close matches. You are right my tech tree is more of a scale (need to change the title probably) and in this scale I'm trying to take into account all of what a race can do not just oh I have a rail gun that makes me better than all of you right off the back. The Tau are good there is no arguing that point, but they are not level 2 I could be talked into putting them in the high end of level 3, but a race can't jump that high in tech that fast. If they had tech that was just behind the Eldar then the IOM wouldn't have an Eastern Fringe and the IOM would have a third major war going on.

Level 6:

Tyranids: take away the arbitrary "I'm the author, I say Tyranids work" and they instantly collapse under the sheer weight of their own idiocy. Their entire existence is based on authors who don't know how thermodynamics or genetics/evolution work, and their "technology" consists of "I'm the author, I say the Tyranids get to do X".

Tyranids at tier 2 might be a bit much maybe very low tier 2 or high tier 3. But to say that they are quote stupid is why the Imperium of man has lost so many battles against the Tyranids. The Tyranids need to be high tier simply because of how they do warfare.
First- They are doing biological warfare to the extreme. They are much more brutal when taking over a planet then any other race maybe besides the Necrons/Chaos. Tyranids will eat/consume the whole bio/raw martial on the planet leaving the planet dead.
Second-how they reproduce is to the scale of Orks and the sheer number they can reproduce in a short amount of time. also they use the opposing forces army for their own be consuming eat then making troops out of the martial no other army does that.
Third- Their ability to adapt so quickly. Not just in warfare but in tactics. Also they having the understanding of what officers are and the need to take them out by any way possible.

Now it is hard to put a tier on Tyranids simply because of how they work but to put them at the bottom of the tier and to call them stupid just shows your ignorance.

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

Doesn't mean that with new weapons systems that combat doctrine doesn't change look at pathfinder squads. Now it could all be combat doctrine and that is why they have not reduced them in size or they just can't do it or the last reason could be is that GW wanted to do something different and not copy other armies that have those weapons in their infantry squads.

P.S. there not really heavy weapons I mean plasma is a gun and in game is rapid fire not heavy. Meltas are assault weapons not heavy. Missile launchers are heavy, lascannons are heavy, and other weapons of the like.

Hmm, I like it. The controversial Tau issue, while I agree with some parts I disagree in others. I believe they are on par/better the the IOM in some areas, but worse in others. Therefore they should be on equal footing, while the highest imperial tech is far better then the best tau tech, that same imperial tech is as much a mystery to the IOM as it would be to the Tau anyhow.

I would disagree on the C'Tans placement, in fact I wouldn't place them at all. This is because the C'Tan don't use Tech, they just 'do' what they do because they where born at the same time as the universe. They have an intrinsic understanding of the universe and how it works much like how Orks genetically know stuff. In the same way I wouldn't put daemons in a 'Best Psyker' tree because they don't *use* the warp, they *are* the warp.

My final thing is that Dark Eldar deserve to be above Craftworld Eldar, just edging into tier 1 above them. This is because CWE use psycho-engineering to accomplish their goals, while DE create all their science the 'old fashioned way'. Yet DE still have more advanced weaponry! They have a far better understanding of the webway, they can create alternate universes (To keep the stolen suns a second out of sync from the rest of the city), make use of Dark Matter, as well as all the haemonculi's weird stuff which seems magic but is pure science. I mean, they created a mirror, that shatters you! What kind of science goes into that! They can still extinguish suns, they can block out the light to an entire planet, they can turn 1/3 of the population into flesh eating super strong zombie things (see Iron Warriors). They take all the genius of the Eldar, but use it much more inventively. They should be above Eldar simply for doing all this, with no psykic powers.