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Hi everyone.

I'm interested in starting Warmachine over Christmas and would like some advice. I've read around a bit already and from what I hear I'm going to want to get the rule book and a battle box. What I need help with is faction choice, how the game "feels" and what expectations I should have going in.

Looking over PP's site, the factions that seem most appealing right now are Cygnar, for their classic good guyness and the Retribution and Convergence*, for downplaying the steam-punk style that I'm uninterested in.

Playstyle-wise, I really like mobility and favor shooting over melee, though not to the point of completely neglecting the later (I got quite enough of that with my Tau!) I also like combined-arms and have a bias for elite over horde.

*Could someone please explain what the Convergence of Cyriss is about? The PP site doesn't have a section on their background the way they do for the other factions.

Hello, and welcome to the Iron Kingdoms!

Of the Armies that you are looking at, I would recommend either Cygnar or Ret- Cyriss doesn't have all of its models yet, and also seems a bit less of a ranged army from what I've seen.

I play Cygnar, and I find that you really need to play the combined arms game rather than shooting if you want to handle scenarios. I tend to use my shooting to soften my enemy up for my melee units, pick off support models, and keep their caster back. Melee units are meanwhile responsible for actually holding ground, which is essential for actually winning scenarios.

Retribution can also be very good at shooting. They have the Mage Hunter Strike force, whose thing is to take a UA, give 'em an accuracy buff, and Ignore all your enemies defensive abilities (except stealth), as well as an assortment of other shooting units.

Here are a couple useful links you might want to look at:

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

http://www.forwardkommander.com/

Sam cw wrote:
Hi everyone.

I'm interested in starting Warmachine over Christmas and would like some advice. I've read around a bit already and from what I hear I'm going to want to get the rule book and a battle box. What I need help with is faction choice, how the game "feels" and what expectations I should have going in.

welcome to the iron kingdoms! don't forget to pick up your complimentary goggles and ironclad plushie!

Sam cw wrote:

Looking over PP's site, the factions that seem most appealing right now are Cygnar, for their classic good guyness and the Retribution and Convergence*, for downplaying the steam-punk style that I'm uninterested in.

Playstyle-wise, I really like mobility and favor shooting over melee, though not to the point of completely neglecting the later (I got quite enough of that with my Tau!) I also like combined-arms and have a bias for elite over horde.

*Could someone please explain what the Convergence of Cyriss is about? The PP site doesn't have a section on their background the way they do for the other factions.

So you're interested in retribution (genocidal elves), cygnar (pseudo-americans), and convergence (smart necrons).

Regarding your question about convergence, they're a little bit different from the big five. the big five (cygnar, khador, protectorate, cryx and retribution) are thebig players that will get constant releases via the yearly anthologies. With regard to convergence, they're a step up from mercenary contract, and a step down from "army of a nation". they're designed as a stand alone, once off splash release. they might get stuff in the future, but it wont be on the scale of the other factions. regarding what they are, they're worshippers of the science/machine goddess cyriss. they believe in biotransference, (a bit like the necrons), in the sense that those that are true believers transfer their consciousnesses to machines and live on in the service of the goddess. their big desire is to reshape the world, and allow their goddess to manifest. if that means killing all the other fleshy things, and turning the planet into cybertron, then fine (the members of the convergence are fanatics, they stand apart from regular worshippers of cyriss who really dont know much about these guys). its only recently that they have decided to emerge from their hidden temples and begin their great work, although they have been a part of the setting in real terms since the original witchfire trilogy, and in the game world for a few hundred years. they have technology that is akin to that in other armies. they have vectors instead of warjacks. vectors dont have cortexes (a warjack brain) as the goddess frowns upon artificial intelligence. instead, vectors are direc extension of a convergence warcaster. in other ways, they prefer precise, mathematical weapons. they dont like guns because they use messy and unstable chemicals (basically, they dont like the "remainder" that blasting powder leaves behind in the chemical waste energy!). so a lot of their ranged weapons are spring loaded contraptions.

regarding your preferred playstyle, mobility and ranged combat are facets of all the factions you list (cygnar and ret are the "ranged" factions of the game), however this game is as far from 40k's tau as you can go. gunlines do not work. you cant sit back at the other end of the board and unload hell. you will need to have melee units as jammers, attrition pieces and for damage output. this is a game which favours combined arms over a focus on either discipline exclusively. regarding elite over horde, remember, this is a skirmish game. a "horde" at 50points might be thirty doods and a pair of warjacks. thats a "big" army. hordes factions tend to be more beast heavy with supporting infantry, and warmachine factions tend to focus more on infantry with supporting warjacks-although the convergence and protectorate are better at running jack heavy than the other factions. ret and cygnar are in the middle. in terms of what you're looking for, all the factions you mention are capable of those three things. circle might be the king of mobility for example, but that doesnt mean no other army can play that game.

In this game, while shooting is important, its cannot win you the game.

Its more something you do to soften the enemy up before committing with your melee units.

Most Jacks have some shooting and some melee, a few have no shooting. All have melee weaponry of some kind, even if its just a little piddly weapon with the power of a wet towel.

Most of time, you'll put 1-2 ranged attacks into an enemy heavy before charging it and finishing it off in melee.


A lot of Cyriss's ranged weapons don't actually cause real damage, but rather debuff the target or support your other models against it.

Cygnar has the best shooting focus out of all the factions. They have good pow long range weaponry. Some of their best units are pure range. But they still need some melee to finish the job.

If you're not terribly big on steampunk, you should take a look at hordes. You get long leggedy beasties instead of smashy bashy steamjacks.

One thing I will recommend if you are starting on the Warmachine side of things:

Start off playing only against other Warmachine players. While Hordes rules are largely the same, it can be really confusing/discouraging to play against Hordes as a beginning Warmachine player given how dynamic their Fury system works relative to the Focus system of Warmachine.

Based on your criteria, Cygnar would be a pretty good fit.

Once you know what you are doing a bit, look into the caster Jeremiah Kraye...with all your jacks having cav rules, you get mobility AND guns.

Thanks for the help everyone. After looking at the Cygnar models for a while, I'm starting to like them more and that puts them in the spot at the moment. It's not going to be set until I read the rules, but I'll be getting the core book tonight. I'd also like to know what's recommended to add to the battle box to get a full 15 point force.

For Cygnar? The most common addition to bring the battlebox to 15 would be the Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team (the B13). They are a great 4 point toolbox unit who can do a whole heap of useful stuff, and will find their way into a lot of your eventual lists.

Kraye with one or two minuteman war jacks has to be the most mobile ctgnar force possible. You can cover what, 15 inches a turn and still shoot and flak field?

Cygnar are fairly mobile and definitely have shooting. The newer Tempest Blazers might be something you want to look really hard at. Also the regular Gun mages and the B-13. All three of those units can move and shoot accurately. And they have a variety of skills that let's them deal with a variety of threats.

Siege and a defender are a great combo, but not as mobile. However they create a powerful firebase.

The Stormwall is simply awesome and is a beast at range or in melee.

There are a variety of melee and shooting units and they have access to a large number of mercenaries to fill in any weaknesses.

From your initial description I would recommend Retribution of Scyrah over Cygnar

They have powerful elite units, godly melee and ranged units. Not to mention some of the better movement in this game

Cygnar has pretty lame melee and often rely on even more lamer (but cheaper) mercenary units to fill the void

What kind of comparison is that Talamere? Cygnar has excellent units all around and their shooting is very good. From what I have seen of their units, they have lots of toolbox units rather than raw power. Also - I would never consider retribution to have "godly melee and ranged units", their units are no more powerful than most other faction's units, and their warjacks are all on the weaker side as far as damage output. Cygnar has solid units and even more solid warjacks, AND they have the largest selection of mercenary units in the game which gives the player more options and more variety.

Just play whichever faction you like the look of most, every faction is competitive.

 Talamare wrote:
From your initial description I would recommend Retribution of Scyrah over Cygnar

They have powerful elite units, godly melee and ranged units. Not to mention some of the better movement in this game

Cygnar has pretty lame melee and often rely on even more lamer (but cheaper) mercenary units to fill the void

Lame melee? eStryker, Stormclad, Stormwall, Rowdy, Stormblades are some in faction melee that is quite powerful. Especially if you bond the warjacks. And for mercs they have access to forgegaurd, steelhead halbs and Boomhowlers. None of those I would consider lame. Do some other factions have a stronger melee game? For sure. But most of them do not have the ranged firepower to go with it.

Now Ret has some good units. Not sure about Godly (except maybe MHSF, LOL). They do tend to be on the faster side of things, but are not the fastest by any means.

If you want "godly" units I'd look at Cryx. They have a plethora of excellent troops choices both in faction and with mercs. Arguably the best choices of troops. But their ranged game is not so great.

And don't get me wrong. Ret would probably be a good faction for the OP to look at as well. But given his criteria Cygnar are probably as good or better.

A prime examble is the defender. It is lethal in melee against other jacks. Good MAT, decent power weapon that cripples cortexes, I would argue that it is better in melee than most of Retribution's war jacks and it isn't even a melee oriented warjack.

KingKodo wrote:
What kind of comparison is that Talamere? Cygnar has excellent units all around and their shooting is very good. From what I have seen of their units, they have lots of toolbox units rather than raw power. Also - I would never consider retribution to have "godly melee and ranged units", their units are no more powerful than most other faction's units, and their warjacks are all on the weaker side as far as damage output. Cygnar has solid units and even more solid warjacks, AND they have the largest selection of mercenary units in the game which gives the player more options and more variety.

Just play whichever faction you like the look of most, every faction is competitive.

 Mordekiem wrote:

Lame melee? eStryker, Stormclad, Stormwall, Rowdy, Stormblades are some in faction melee that is quite powerful. Especially if you bond the warjacks. And for mercs they have access to forgegaurd, steelhead halbs and Boomhowlers. None of those I would consider lame. Do some other factions have a stronger melee game? For sure. But most of them do not have the ranged firepower to go with it.

Now Ret has some good units. Not sure about Godly (except maybe MHSF, LOL). They do tend to be on the faster side of things, but are not the fastest by any means.

If you want "godly" units I'd look at Cryx. They have a plethora of excellent troops choices both in faction and with mercs. Arguably the best choices of troops. But their ranged game is not so great.

And don't get me wrong. Ret would probably be a good faction for the OP to look at as well. But given his criteria Cygnar are probably as good or better.

While calling Scyrah stuff "Godly" they do excel in having potent both melee and ranged in most of their units, and Cygnar and Ret have comparable Ranged Damage on their Jacks (Scyrah is probably slightly below Cygnar output) but Scyrah easily blows them out of the water in melee, ESPECIALLY because of the Arcanist.
Also, lets be honest. If Cygnar unit choice was as solid as you claim, we would see more people rely on them. In reality we see Gun Mages, sometimes Stormblades, and a whole bunch of Mercs. I will say I am unfair in my description of lame; when using it on the Cygnar units I was describing the fact that they either slightly overcosted or slightly underperform; When using it on the Merc units, I was describing the fact its actually lame to have to use so much mercs.

True story on Cryx, and yes every faction is competitive and good and flowers and roses.
The difference between Good and Bad in this game is often 1-2 numerical differences, and those 1-2 difference can often mean everything... or absolutely nothing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets do a check
Who is Cygnar better than in Melee?

Cryx & Skorne are easily the best
Circle, Legion, Menoth are better than them
When you take a closer look at Scyrah, you will see Scyrah beats them too

So who is left Trolls? Khador? Honestly I would rank both of those as better at it

 Talamare wrote:

Lets do a check
Who is Cygnar better than in Melee?

Cryx & Skorne are easily the best
Circle, Legion, Menoth are better than them
When you take a closer look at Scyrah, you will see Scyrah beats them too

So who is left Trolls? Khador? Honestly I would rank both of those as better at it

Define better please.

Better in DMG output? Because there are not many things in the game that do more damage than an Assaulting Stormblade and there are not many jacks that outperform a Stormclad.

 Talamare wrote:
While calling Scyrah stuff "Godly" they do excel in having potent both melee and ranged in most of their units, and Cygnar and Ret have comparable Ranged Damage on their Jacks (Scyrah is probably slightly below Cygnar output) but Scyrah easily blows them out of the water in melee, ESPECIALLY because of the Arcanist.
Also, lets be honest. If Cygnar unit choice was as solid as you claim, we would see more people rely on them. In reality we see Gun Mages, sometimes Stormblades, and a whole bunch of Mercs. I will say I am unfair in my description of lame; when using it on the Cygnar units I was describing the fact that they either slightly overcosted or slightly underperform; When using it on the Merc units, I was describing the fact its actually lame to have to use so much mercs.

Ok, calling Mercs lame because you don't want to use them is...well, lame. Boomhowlers, Forgegaurd, Steelheads and Nyss all get plenty of table time from what I can see. And if you feel playing with mercs is "lame" then that is just your opinion of how to play. And since this is a thread on "starting Warmachine" that is terrible advice to be saying. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using mercs in Cygnar or any other army. In fact plenty of people are drawn to Cygnar because they CAN use so many mercs.

Otherwise for the Cygnar melee options I gave my experience is they are all pretty commonly considered excellent. eStryker is often considered one of the top 3 or 4 Cygnar casters. And Rowdy works really well with him and other casters. Also the Stormclad is common with him and used to be eHaleys BFF until the Stormwall came along. And a lot of people consider the Stormwall to be OP and I never heard anyone say it is bad.

Yes, overall Cygnar is not going to be a melee powerhouse. But that is not how Cygnar plays. They are combined arms and their main power tends to be in their guns. Their melee troops either tend to be screens to slow down the badguys so you can shoot them more or they tend to be like the stormblades and designed to finish off what doesn't get shot. But some casters like eStryker and Constance really lend themselves to a melee-centric army.

 Mordekiem wrote:
Ok, calling Mercs lame because you don't want to use them is...well, lame. Boomhowlers, Forgegaurd, Steelheads and Nyss all get plenty of table time from what I can see. And if you feel playing with mercs is "lame" then that is just your opinion of how to play. And since this is a thread on "starting Warmachine" that is terrible advice to be saying. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using mercs in Cygnar or any other army. In fact plenty of people are drawn to Cygnar because they CAN use so many mercs.

I agree that my saying that relying on mercs is lame is also fairly lame

However, Faction Purists like me do exist. Who prefer faction exclusives and are not a fan of needing to rely on the "catch all" faction for the bulk of their forces.
The original poster did mention he had a preference towards "Elite" units, which could point towards purity as well

Which is why I am arguing that he might be more interested in Retribution of Scyrah, another faction who is famed for its amazing shooting (admittedly worse than Cygnar) capabilities, beautiful mobility while still having fairly impressive melee. A true Combined Arms approach

I don't exactly agree with Talamare's opinion on Cygnar, BUT I do agree that Retribution seems to fit what the OP wants more.

They are the true combined arms faction of WM, every one of their heavies has a gun, they have units that excel at both ranged and melee, and are in general very mobile. I feel Cygnar leans slightly more to the ranged side of things than the middle ground approach of Retribution.