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The main rulebook specifically tells us that when measuring to or from vehicles, to "ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and
other decorative elements." (BRB p 71)

So when it comes to the Raider pictured above, which elements qualify as 'decorative elements' and which ones count as 'hull?'

To clarify: The options you choose in the poll above are the elements you believe you CAN draw LOS to for firing purposes.

For the purposes of this question, assume that each element is the ONLY part of the vehicle you can see, and decide if you could declare the vehicle as a target.

Feel free to explain your answers, of course.

I treat the ram and rudder as hull.

Keelblades are optional addons, not hull structure. Ditto the crew.

The pikes are likewise optional bling.

The sail i treat as decorative, but if an opponent wanted to treat it as hull I'd be ok with it, and gave fun measuring my shots from it

I can definitely dig the rudder blade and the ram (although if the ram counts as hull, that means I can measure my crew's shots from the tip of it, right? And deploy from the edge of the tip?) but I admit to being curious as to the reasoning behind voting for the crew and/or the under-blades.

I voted Ram and Rutter.

Ram because it is a rather Large piece that could cause some nightmarish issues where it not Hull(and yes you can shoot/embark/disembark from the very tip).

Rutter is in essence a Wing(that would dip into the water on a sea-faring vessel); which we are already told counts as hull.

I should have voted for the sail as well, but forgot to click on it.

Voted sail, blades, ram and rudder, and I'd probably include crew as well, or at least the driver. IMO the deciding factor is whether something is part of the "standard" vehicle hull or an optional decorative element that is added purely for aesthetic purposes. So the sail and ram are clearly part of the standard model and can't be removed, but the flag and pikes with heads are optional things that could be removed without making it an illegal model. RAI is to avoid punishing people for adding cool decorative bits, not to make it easier to hide oddly shaped vehicles.

If I paid for the ram then it's part of the targetable model. If I did not pay for the ram, then it's just decoration.

Since my rudders were glued such that they still turn, then no.

 Peregrine wrote:
Voted sail, blades, ram and rudder, and I'd probably include crew as well, or at least the driver. IMO the deciding factor is whether something is part of the "standard" vehicle hull or an optional decorative element that is added purely for aesthetic purposes. So the sail and ram are clearly part of the standard model and can't be removed, but the flag and pikes with heads are optional things that could be removed without making it an illegal model. RAI is to avoid punishing people for adding cool decorative bits, not to make it easier to hide oddly shaped vehicles.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious: what makes the sail and ram 'clearly part of the standard model' and the flag and pikes aren't? All the pictures of the Raider on the box and in the instructions (the display ones, at any rate) show the Raider with the pikes and the flag attached.

I can definitely see the sail and the ram being hull if you've taken the upgrade, though. That makes sense.

The guys hanging off the side, though, I don't personally think should count as hull.

(The whole genesis for this poll was to figure out which parts I can leave off/alter without being accused of modeling for advantage.)

I voted for the rudder only.

I would likely include the pilot and gunner, but the side hanging warriors are passengers to me, so wouldn't count them.

The prow can be a weapon if you take the Shock Prow, and measuring to weapons does not count as hull for targeting purposes, so I count it as decoration if the Shock Prow is not purchased.

The Blades and Pikes are definitely decorations.

The sail is a decoration to me, but I can see the sail being counted as hull to others, and would not argue it either way.

Always measured from the ram and rudder

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious: what makes the sail and ram 'clearly part of the standard model' and the flag and pikes aren't? All the pictures of the Raider on the box and in the instructions (the display ones, at any rate) show the Raider with the pikes and the flag attached.

Because they're clearly decorative bits. The sail is a functional part of the vehicle itself, the pikes with heads on them are purely aesthetic just like if you had a LRBT with a commander poking out of the hatch to raise the regimental banner or some bags of gear hanging off the side of the turret.

Also, the GW website catalog picture does not have the flag and has a different arrangement of pikes. They might have instructions for how to add them, but they pretty clearly seem to be intended as optional decorative bits that you can use to customize your model.


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 megatrons2nd wrote:
The prow can be a weapon if you take the Shock Prow, and measuring to weapons does not count as hull for targeting purposes, so I count it as decoration if the Shock Prow is not purchased.

But exactly what part of it is the shock prow (which isn't a weapon, it's a vehicle upgrade)? You could pretty easily argue that the basic structure is part of the vehicle's hull, and the shock prow upgrade is represented by the tiny spikes on it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I admit to being curious as to the reasoning behind voting for the crew and/or the under-blades.

I voted that:

The sail.
The underslung blades beneath the craft
The spiky ram
The rudder.

Were hull.

As for the reasoning behind voting for the under-blades, they are not a gun barrel, dozer blade, antenna, banner or other decorative element and therefore are Hull. (The chain blades have an in-game function IIRC).

Though if you can see the under blades you can probably see the bottom of the chassis as well, so it will hardly ever be an issue.

I don't see how anyone can say that the sail of a ship is decorative. It's not.

The fact that the sails can be upgraded for extra movemnet proves that they have a function, and as such are not decorative.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious: what makes the sail and ram 'clearly part of the standard model' and the flag and pikes aren't? All the pictures of the Raider on the box and in the instructions (the display ones, at any rate) show the Raider with the pikes and the flag attached.

Because they're clearly decorative bits. The sail is a functional part of the vehicle itself, the pikes with heads on them are purely aesthetic just like if you had a LRBT with a commander poking out of the hatch to raise the regimental banner or some bags of gear hanging off the side of the turret.

Also, the GW website catalog picture does not have the flag and has a different arrangement of pikes. They might have instructions for how to add them, but they pretty clearly seem to be intended as optional decorative bits that you can use to customize your model.


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 megatrons2nd wrote:
The prow can be a weapon if you take the Shock Prow, and measuring to weapons does not count as hull for targeting purposes, so I count it as decoration if the Shock Prow is not purchased.

But exactly what part of it is the shock prow (which isn't a weapon, it's a vehicle upgrade)? You could pretty easily argue that the basic structure is part of the vehicle's hull, and the shock prow upgrade is represented by the tiny spikes on it.

Hmmm. I would feel iffy about leaving off the sail, but I can definitely see leaving off the ram. I wouldn't be too put out if an opponent left off the ram, though. (While even the Codex shows a Shock Prow depicted as just a normal prow with a spiffy lightning effect paint job, there actually IS a Shock Prow bit which comes in the Ravager box. It's a little bigger, and has piston like protrusions from the sides.)

Now, when you say that you'd probably include crew as well, do you just mean the gunner, the driver, the hangers-on, or all of the above? To my mind, anyway, it seems to track that if you don't draw LOS to the gun, you don't draw it to the gunner either, but maybe I'm off base on that. I can't really see a situation where you could draw LOS only to the driver, so I didn't really consider that too hard, but if a vertical wall or somesuch obscures the majority of the vehicle, I could definitely see a situation arising where all you could see would be one of the guys hanging onto the side, and it seems a little fishy to me to claim that that is enough of the vehicle to draw LOS to.

In general, I take the view that any piece that can be left off without showing visible 'attachment points' is not hull. Anything which looks integral to the function is hull. Any optional wargear upgrades are not hull. And any banners/spikes/antennas are not hull.
It also depends on how everyone else assembles the vehicle. For the DE vehicle, I don't think I've ever seen someone try to assemble it without the ram or the sail - therefore, they are hull.

I voted that Ram, under-blades, rudder and sail are all hull. I'd also count the crew manning the tiller/guns, but not the ones hanging off the sides.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would feel iffy about leaving off the sail, but I can definitely see leaving off the ram. I wouldn't be too put out if an opponent left off the ram, though. (While even the Codex shows a Shock Prow depicted as just a normal prow with a spiffy lightning effect paint job, there actually IS a Shock Prow bit which comes in the Ravager box. It's a little bigger, and has piston like protrusions from the sides.)

I don't think I've ever seen a Raider/Ravager without that ram bit. It's certainly part of the intended hull shape, and you'd probably have blank plastic or a hole if you left it off. IMO it's not optional at all.

Now, when you say that you'd probably include crew as well, do you just mean the gunner, the driver, the hangers-on, or all of the above?

Driver and gunners, since they're a required part of the standard model. The extra models hanging off the side are optional decorative bits.

To my mind, anyway, it seems to track that if you don't draw LOS to the gun, you don't draw it to the gunner either, but maybe I'm off base on that.

You don't draw LOS to the gun barrel, not the whole gun. So the turret or mounting point, main bulk of the gun, gunner, etc are all available to draw LOS to.

On my attachment I would say any point on the actual ship (not sail, not pikes not units the actual ship) between the red lines counts as hull and is a measurable from point.

I went for sail, and rudder. But this is basically how my group plays it. We don't count the ram, but that is due to the owning player's preference, and could easily be included here for the same reasons. I would argue heavily in favor of the sail and rudder being hull, as they are simply vertical "wings", and a wing is certainly a hull (like on a flyer, for instance). That'd be like disallowing the the long under-hanging tail on an SM storm talon or something. Guess it comes down to your group or TO's preference though.

Sail, Ram and Rudder.

The component with the driver's control panel on it is part of the mast assembly, so it must be an integral part of the kit. The Ram gives the ship it's distinctive shape and there is no blanking plate supplied, so it must be an essential component. And try steering the thing without a rudder, again essential.

The pikes are decorative, none of my DE vehicles have them fitted. The underslung blades are the same, and none of mine have them fitted (that's for transport reasons, mainly). The chain snares fit in the same spot, and they're an upgrade, so the blades must not be essential.

Crew are crew, not hull, but on the Raider/Ravager particularly if you can see the crew, you can see hull. (The railings/sail for prow gunner and Pilot, the gun sponson pods (which are not gun barrels) for the side gunners)

I voted rudder and ram.... I don't consider the sail to be part of the hull, but probably because it looks like a ship, and ship sails are not part of the hull. I've never actually had it come up though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious: what makes the sail and ram 'clearly part of the standard model' and the flag and pikes aren't? All the pictures of the Raider on the box and in the instructions (the display ones, at any rate) show the Raider with the pikes and the flag attached.

Because they're clearly decorative bits. The sail is a functional part of the vehicle itself, the pikes with heads on them are purely aesthetic just like if you had a LRBT with a commander poking out of the hatch to raise the regimental banner or some bags of gear hanging off the side of the turret.

The sail is only "functional" if you've taken the Aethersails upgrade. Otherwise, exactly what function does a sail on a jet powered skimmer serve?


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 Nem wrote:
I voted rudder and ram.... I don't consider the sail to be part of the hull, but probably because it looks like a ship, and ship sails are not part of the hull. I've never actually had it come up though.

This. A "sail" is, by definition, not part of the "hull" of any vessel which has both a sail and a hull.

Majsharan wrote:
On my attachment I would say any point on the actual ship (not sail, not pikes not units the actual ship) between the red lines counts as hull and is a measurable from point.

This is how ive always played, Made sure to tell my opponent first that what I thought counted as, this made sure he wasnt trying to use "just the tip" as targeting, and vise-versa.

Saldiven wrote:
The sail is only "functional" if you've taken the Aethersails upgrade. Otherwise, exactly what function does a sail on a jet powered skimmer serve?.

It could be used to change direction, but rules wise the sail without upgrade has no function.

However if you are going to count the sail when you take the upgrade it would be safer to count the sail all of the time.

I've found that my opponents don't want to count the ram for firing from nor for disembarking, so for consistency we don't usually count it for being fired at, either.

Pyrian wrote:
I've found that my opponents don't want to count the ram for firing from nor for disembarking, so for consistency we don't usually count it for being fired at, either.

See, this is part of my issue. I don't want to deploy off the tip of my ram, or fire off of it, and be looked at like a d-bag, but I'm afraid if I go the other way people will accuse me of cheesery if I say they can't draw LOS to it. The ram seems like a situation where I won't be able to win no matter what I do.

 Jimsolo wrote:


See, this is part of my issue. I don't want to deploy off the tip of my ram, or fire off of it, and be looked at like a d-bag, but I'm afraid if I go the other way people will accuse me of cheesery if I say they can't draw LOS to it. The ram seems like a situation where I won't be able to win no matter what I do.

Speaking for myself, I find it easiest to consider all parts of the vehicle as the vehicle. So if I were playing you, I would expect the ram to be counted for all purposes--unit inside firing and disembarking, and also my weapons finding range. Why would I ignore parts of the vehicle that aren't specifically exempted in the BRB? It'd just make things more confusing, at least IMO.

Edit: I also think that the rules for open-topped transports and fire points are dumb. There should be fire points defined on the vehicle that an unlimited number of models can fire out of. That way, we won't have your models drawing LoS over a tall hill from the top of the mast. Sure, ONE guy could climb up there...but 10?

 Jimsolo wrote:
See, this is part of my issue. I don't want to deploy off the tip of my ram, or fire off of it, and be looked at like a d-bag, but I'm afraid if I go the other way people will accuse me of cheesery if I say they can't draw LOS to it. The ram seems like a situation where I won't be able to win no matter what I do.

So just count the ram for LOS and voluntarily deploy and shoot without counting it. The fact that you can deploy or shoot from part of a model doesn't mean you have to use that option.


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Saldiven wrote:
The sail is only "functional" if you've taken the Aethersails upgrade. Otherwise, exactly what function does a sail on a jet powered skimmer serve?

I don't know how the imaginary vehicle works. But the sail is clearly built into the main hull in a permanent way, the driver is using it to steer just like a sailing ship, etc. It is very obviously not just an optional decorative bit that you can choose to leave off.

The Ramming prow at the front of the vehicle is the same as a dozer blade in purpose. Do dozer blades have rules?

The driver uses the rudder to steer, not the sail. The sail collects energy from the aether, the enhanced one does it better. Your argument though does make me want to add the sail to my vote.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The Ramming prow at the front of the vehicle is the same as a dozer blade in purpose.

But with one key difference: the dozer blade is an optional upgrade, the ram bit is part of the hull of the model and can't be left off without leaving a hole in the model.

Had this come up with a friend when I tried to assault him and was hitting just past the ram bit, He said no you have to reach my hull = The flying base, (it was a make or break assault) I basically said if you are allowed to measure for shooting from it im allowed to measure my assault distance to it.

The ram and sail both have upgrades, but also have a normal nonupgraded part.

Pikes with skulls, scythes, chains are optional vehicle wargear. Crew is not required to be put on the model afaik so cannot be hull.