Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For most of these, as long as you make everything clear and agreed upon before the game begins, I don't think you'll have any trouble.

However, I have to disagree about the sail being part of the hull. If the sail was considered hull, I could deploy out and measure from the very top of it for shooting (since its open top). That means I could hide behind a huge rock, where you couldn't see the vehicle at all - besides the small tip of the sail peaking over the top - and fire all of my warriors from inside. After all, I am just measuring from the HULL, correct?

As long as the other items are kept consistent for measuring and assaults etc, then I see no issue.

autopilot wrote:
However, I have to disagree about the sail being part of the hull. If the sail was considered hull, I could deploy out and measure from the very top of it for shooting (since its open top). That means I could hide behind a huge rock, where you couldn't see the vehicle at all - besides the small tip of the sail peaking over the top - and fire all of my warriors from inside. After all, I am just measuring from the HULL, correct?

Sure, but I can also fire back and all you get is the standard 5+ cover save for being behind terrain. In this situation it makes absolutely no difference whether 25.0000000000001% of your model is hidden or 99.99999999999999% of it is hidden.

 Peregrine wrote:

autopilot wrote:
However, I have to disagree about the sail being part of the hull. If the sail was considered hull, I could deploy out and measure from the very top of it for shooting (since its open top). That means I could hide behind a huge rock, where you couldn't see the vehicle at all - besides the small tip of the sail peaking over the top - and fire all of my warriors from inside. After all, I am just measuring from the HULL, correct?

Sure, but I can also fire back and all you get is the standard 5+ cover save for being behind terrain. In this situation it makes absolutely no difference whether 25.0000000000001% of your model is hidden or 99.99999999999999% of it is hidden.

Correct. So we're in agreement that the sail counting as the hull is pretty silly?

autopilot wrote:
Correct. So we're in agreement that the sail counting as the hull is pretty silly?

No, not at all. The sail is hull, just like the wings on a Valkyrie are hull.

It would be a pretty douche-y player who would argue about targeting my raider when only the tip of the sail was showing, and i don't believe its in the spirit of the game. To me and my group the hull is the main bit between the driver and the gun, not the sail and not the ram. This part is clearly intended to be the hull by the designers, to argue other wise is using RAW to gain an advantage, which i don't see as the point of most RAW written gamers. But ultimately, its something you will have to discuss pregame and if it pops up in game take the option that gives no player an unfair advantage over the other (Say instead of targeting this tiny spike, you get to shoot at the Venom in the open).

Alex

Edit, miss read

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
It would be a pretty douche-y player who would argue about targeting my raider when only the tip of the sail was showing, and i don't believe its in the spirit of the game. To me and my group the hull is the main bit between the driver and the gun, not the sail and not the ram. This part is clearly intended to be the hull by the designers, to argue other wise is using RAW to gain an advantage, which i don't see as the point of most RAW written gamers. But ultimately, its something you will have to discuss pregame and if it pops up in game take the option that gives no player an unfair advantage over the other (Say instead of targeting this tiny spike, you get to shoot at the Venom in the open).

Alex

That's your opinion, and your entitled to it, but what you and your friends have done, is to make a house rule.

Certain parts of vehicles don't count for LOS purposes. Parts that are purely decorative do not count for LOS. A sail on a ship, be it a normal boat or a space boat, is not decorative.

It's no different than only being able to see the tread of a landraider. The tread is not decorative, and even if you only see a part of it, you have LOS.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
It would be a pretty douche-y player who would argue about targeting my raider when only the tip of the sail was showing, and i don't believe its in the spirit of the game

And I'd say would be a pretty TFG player who would argue about making their vehicle smaller so it's easier to hide behind cover. And it would certainly be a TFG move to do it once the game has started and you're telling me that I can't shoot at your vehicle despite clearly being able to see it. 40k uses TLOS, and the rules for drawing LOS to vehicles don't specify some arbitrary percentage that has to be visible or it isn't "really" in LOS. By both RAI and RAW if a tiny tip of the hull is visible the vehicle is in LOS and can be shot at with the standard cover save given by the obstruction it is behind.

To me and my group the hull is the main bit between the driver and the gun, not the sail and not the ram.

This is a terrible definition. Even ignoring the sail issue defining "hull" between those points ignores parts that are indisputably part of the vehicle's hull. It makes about as much sense as defining the hull of a Rhino to be only the center part between the track sections.

But ultimately, its something you will have to discuss pregame and if it pops up in game take the option that gives no player an unfair advantage over the other (Say instead of targeting this tiny spike, you get to shoot at the Venom in the open).

Since when does "giving no player an unfair advantage" mean "we do it my way and you get to shoot at a different unit, which you could already do". Unless you're proposing some bizarre trade where you get to stop me from shooting at your Raider but take away the cover save you'd be entitled to on the Venom?

This discussion makes me think of how much simpler BFG was. Only the base of the model counted for anything. I miss playing that game...

I think the most important thing here is to clarify which is what at the beginning of the game.

I played a DE player once who did this religiously and it worked. I don't even remember if we said the sail was targetable although I voted yes. Anything other than the spikes is golden.

TLOS is TLOS and in a lot of ways clears up these issues when you think about it critically.

 Aijec wrote:
I think the most important thing here is to clarify which is what at the beginning of the game.

I played a DE player once who did this religiously and it worked. I don't even remember if we said the sail was targetable although I voted yes. Anything other than the spikes is golden.

TLOS is TLOS and in a lot of ways clears up these issues when you think about it critically.

I tend to agree, I think that the only real point of confusion comes in when you need to consider what falls under the rather vague heading of "other decorative elements."

Sail, ram and rudder.

Warriors are clearly not hull. Banner poles are the same as antennas or the banners on a sergeant: not a target.

The blades on the bottom should only be on the model if you've taken that option. Which very few people do; if you are one of those then I'd count it as hull. Otherwise I'd ignore it while not being picky about wysiwyg.

There are two rams for a raider. The default one and an upgrade. If you don't put at least the default one on then you have a major hole in the model, much like leaving the front piece off of a rhino. Further, no GW picture shows a raider without it. So this counts regardless of what you pick.