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 AWesker1976 wrote:

Selym 565266 6295598 wrote:
Hardly hypocrisy when smoking directly impacts the health of those around it, and drinking does not...

I'll be sure to tell all those people killed by drunk drivers and their families that it wasn't someone's drinking that impacted their health. They really should let that anti drinking thing go.

Being drunk and doing drunken things is a result of overuse of alcohol, not a direct effect of it.

Breathing problems, however, are a direct result of second hand smoke...

 Blacksails wrote:
Again, its a good thing no one in this thread is advocating drinking past the point of stupidity.

But hey, strawmans and all that.

It's not strawman. This was put up directly in response to the alcohol drinkers folly that drinking is somehow better for everyone than smoking and it's not. Not by a long shot. In fact, even if you're just drinking socially or what not, it is still having lasting negative effects on not just you but our entire society and generations to come by rat-fxcking the human DNA sequence! Ever hear of fetal alcohol syndrome?

Alcohol is a poison. Sure, as adults, we get to pick our poisons, but don't get self-righteous about it when your drug of choice is more dangerous than cocaine or marijuana. ESPECIALLY after giving us so much sh!t for just smoking tobacco. Until beer and wine drinkers join us outside, it is hypocrisy. Point blank. Flat out.

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

Selym 565266 6295598 wrote:
Hardly hypocrisy when smoking directly impacts the health of those around it, and drinking does not...

I'll be sure to tell all those people killed by drunk drivers and their families that it wasn't someone's drinking that impacted their health. They really should let that anti drinking thing go.

Being drunk and doing drunken things is a result of overuse of alcohol, not a direct effect of it.

Breathing problems, however, are a direct result of second hand smoke...

Are you really arguing that unless someone drops dead because they stood next to a person who drank a shot/pint of whatever instead of coming face to bumper with a drunk fella that alcohol had no effect on their life?

zilka86 wrote:
I have heard a lot off people say they like drinking and playing been to a few trounys where drinking was allowed. i can't see why you want to get drunk and play.

Why do people like to get drunk and do anything?

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

Selym 565266 6295598 wrote:
Hardly hypocrisy when smoking directly impacts the health of those around it, and drinking does not...

I'll be sure to tell all those people killed by drunk drivers and their families that it wasn't someone's drinking that impacted their health. They really should let that anti drinking thing go.

Being drunk and doing drunken things is a result of overuse of alcohol, not a direct effect of it.

Breathing problems, however, are a direct result of second hand smoke...

Are you really arguing that unless someone drops dead because they stood next to a person who drank a shot/pint of whatever instead of coming face to bumper with a drunk fella that alcohol had no effect on their life?

What!?

I'm arguing about the immediate impact on another person when you drink/smoke in their vicinity. I'm not saying that drinking is 100% good...

No need to overreact...

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

Selym 565266 6295598 wrote:
Hardly hypocrisy when smoking directly impacts the health of those around it, and drinking does not...

I'll be sure to tell all those people killed by drunk drivers and their families that it wasn't someone's drinking that impacted their health. They really should let that anti drinking thing go.

Being drunk and doing drunken things is a result of overuse of alcohol, not a direct effect of it.

Breathing problems, however, are a direct result of second hand smoke...

Or poor air quality in a city, or asthma, or inhaling polyurethane and petroleum products, or cow farts!

Guys. Seriously. Second hand is not that bad. You breath in more CO2 driving your car with the windows down than you do standing next to someone smoking a cigarrette. Be real. What ya'll don't like is the smell, and we don't like the way ya'll smell either, so get over it.

And besides that, we've made an advancement in smoking! It's called the vaporizor. But you know what? That doesn't produce CO2 or even a smell, and we are still being bagged on for smoking! Smoking something healthy of all things!! The hypocrisy continues.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

zilka86 wrote:
I have heard a lot off people say they like drinking and playing been to a few trounys where drinking was allowed. i can't see why you want to get drunk and play.

Why do people like to get drunk and do anything?

Alcohol eliminates a person's inhibitions to a point where they can really talk themselves into doing anything. Don't let that conscience get in the way of your fun, especially when it comes at the expense of someone else.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Again, its a good thing no one in this thread is advocating drinking past the point of stupidity.

But hey, strawmans and all that.

It's not strawman. This was put up directly in response to the alcohol drinkers folly that drinking is somehow better for everyone than smoking and it's not. Not by a long shot. In fact, even if you're just drinking socially or what not, it is still having lasting negative effects on not just you but our entire society and generations to come by rat-fxcking the human DNA sequence! Ever hear of fetal alcohol syndrome?

Alcohol is a poison. Sure, as adults, we get to pick our poisons, but don't get self-righteous about it when your drug of choice is more dangerous than cocaine or marijuana. ESPECIALLY after giving us so much sh!t for just smoking tobacco. Until beer and wine drinkers join us outside, it is hypocrisy. Point blank. Flat out.

I don't think anyone was arguing alcohol is better for you than smoking. My understanding was that smoking in a confined space next to a non-smoker is infinitely more irritating (and unhealthy due to second hand smoke) than someone enjoying a cold one.

That's all I got out of it anyways. Maybe I'm not over-reacting enough though.

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

zilka86 wrote:
I have heard a lot off people say they like drinking and playing been to a few trounys where drinking was allowed. i can't see why you want to get drunk and play.

Why do people like to get drunk and do anything?

Alcohol eliminates a person's inhibitions to a point where they can really talk themselves into doing anything. Don't let that conscience get in the way of your fun, especially when it comes at the expense of someone else.

Which is pretty much every drunk I've ever been around, whether it's the stumble-bum having fun or the a-hole that got into a fight because it felt good at the time. Screw that noise. Get high and save a life. Mostly your own.

I'm currently having a game with a mate and I've just remembered this thread. We're coming up to turn 5 (he's winning incase you're wondering) and, shock horror, we're having a few drinks as we play. We have music on, both are in work tomorrow and both adults. Neither of us is drunk, yet are enjoying a bottle of spiced and a good game.

Can we please end the argument about drinking to get drunk now? As people have said, alcohol can be drank because you enjoy the taste, personally I like the relaxation a couple of drinks gives in the right environment, the taste of what I drink, and feeling like a grown up whilst I play with my toy soldiers.

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

Selym 565266 6295598 wrote:
Hardly hypocrisy when smoking directly impacts the health of those around it, and drinking does not...

I'll be sure to tell all those people killed by drunk drivers and their families that it wasn't someone's drinking that impacted their health. They really should let that anti drinking thing go.

Being drunk and doing drunken things is a result of overuse of alcohol, not a direct effect of it.

Breathing problems, however, are a direct result of second hand smoke...

Are you really arguing that unless someone drops dead because they stood next to a person who drank a shot/pint of whatever instead of coming face to bumper with a drunk fella that alcohol had no effect on their life?

What!?

I'm arguing about the immediate impact on another person when you drink/smoke in their vicinity. I'm not saying that drinking is 100% good...

No need to overreact...

My apologies for jumping to conclusions about you .

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

zilka86 wrote:
I have heard a lot off people say they like drinking and playing been to a few trounys where drinking was allowed. i can't see why you want to get drunk and play.

Why do people like to get drunk and do anything?

Alcohol eliminates a person's inhibitions to a point where they can really talk themselves into doing anything. Don't let that conscience get in the way of your fun, especially when it comes at the expense of someone else.

Which is pretty much every drunk I've ever been around, whether it's the stumble-bum having fun or the a-hole that got into a fight because it felt good at the time. Screw that noise. Get high and save a life. Mostly your own.

I feel compelled to reiterate drinking =/= drunk...

I may have lost track of this particular mini-debate though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:

Selym 565266 6295598 wrote:
Hardly hypocrisy when smoking directly impacts the health of those around it, and drinking does not...

I'll be sure to tell all those people killed by drunk drivers and their families that it wasn't someone's drinking that impacted their health. They really should let that anti drinking thing go.

Being drunk and doing drunken things is a result of overuse of alcohol, not a direct effect of it.

Breathing problems, however, are a direct result of second hand smoke...

Are you really arguing that unless someone drops dead because they stood next to a person who drank a shot/pint of whatever instead of coming face to bumper with a drunk fella that alcohol had no effect on their life?

What!?

I'm arguing about the immediate impact on another person when you drink/smoke in their vicinity. I'm not saying that drinking is 100% good...

No need to overreact...

My apologies for jumping to conclusions about you .

S'okay, I wasn't that clear in my post, tbh.

I think there are some people in this thread who need to calm down and take a step back.

Drinking in moderation is fine. Smoking is fine. The point made earlier was that smoking in a confined space with non-smokers is irritating and possibly hazardous to their health. That's all.

Deleted for being incendiary - AWesker

 Blacksails wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Again, its a good thing no one in this thread is advocating drinking past the point of stupidity.

But hey, strawmans and all that.

It's not strawman. This was put up directly in response to the alcohol drinkers folly that drinking is somehow better for everyone than smoking and it's not. Not by a long shot. In fact, even if you're just drinking socially or what not, it is still having lasting negative effects on not just you but our entire society and generations to come by rat-fxcking the human DNA sequence! Ever hear of fetal alcohol syndrome?

Alcohol is a poison. Sure, as adults, we get to pick our poisons, but don't get self-righteous about it when your drug of choice is more dangerous than cocaine or marijuana. ESPECIALLY after giving us so much sh!t for just smoking tobacco. Until beer and wine drinkers join us outside, it is hypocrisy. Point blank. Flat out.

I don't think anyone was arguing alcohol is better for you than smoking. My understanding was that smoking in a confined space next to a non-smoker is infinitely more irritating (and unhealthy due to second hand smoke) than someone enjoying a cold one.

That's all I got out of it anyways. Maybe I'm not over-reacting enough though.

Are you a drinker? Because no, most drinkers don't see a problem with this. Mostly because drinkers rally with drinkers and drinking is legal, though still the most destructive habit in the world.

It's hypocrisy. Guaranteed, if prohibition came back (like it should), you'd have drinkers throwing all kinds of a fit, just like they did during prohibition. And you know what that's called? WITHDRAWAL.


Ok. Since we're apparently all hugging and moving on, I'll edit in my final point. I was keying in on the hypocrisy. The very statement that "I think smoking in a confined space with non-smokers" OK well "Drinking in a confined space with non-drinkers can be unhealthy and annoying too." That's what hypocrisy means. Recognizing a fault like that in someone else, without recognizing it in yourself first and then shutting up and dealing with the same discomforts you place on other people around you.

 AWesker1976 wrote:


Rampant misuse of alcohol and the cost in lives and property it takes from the world is deserving of "over reacting" to. I'll stop over reacting when we stop putting people in the ground.

So...what's your point? Are you saying no one should drink, ever? Like an all out ban?

Or should there simply be a culture in which people are taught to enjoy things in moderation?

Again, no need to over-react. We're talking about enjoying a few beers with friends over 40k, not about society's plight of general stupidity and people who ruin things for the rest of us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Are you a drinker? Because no, most drinkers don't see a problem with this. Mostly because drinkers rally with drinkers and drinking is legal, though still the most destructive habit in the world.

It's hypocrisy. Guaranteed, if prohibition came back (like it should), you'd have drinkers throwing all kinds of a fit, just like they did during prohibition. And you know what that's called? WITHDRAWAL.

Yes, I'm a drinker. Did I claim anywhere drinking isn't destructive when abused? Stop building strawmans, I'm not arguing about the benefits of smoking vs. alcohol. The only point is that blowing smoke in people's face over a game of 40k is more irritating than someone enjoying a cold one.

That's it.

If you want to discuss alcohol vs. smoking, please do so in the off topic forum.

 Blacksails wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:


Rampant misuse of alcohol and the cost in lives and property it takes from the world is deserving of "over reacting" to. I'll stop over reacting when we stop putting people in the ground.

So...what's your point? Are you saying no one should drink, ever? Like an all out ban?

Or should there simply be a culture in which people are taught to enjoy things in moderation?

Again, no need to over-react. We're talking about enjoying a few beers with friends over 40k, not about society's plight of general stupidity and people who ruin things for the rest of us.

Sorry, looks like I was too slow in deleting that before you saw it. I judged it too incendiary and hateful to keep on the page. So let me calm down for a while before I speak on this anymore as I seem to have gone off and started a different path than where the thread was originally.

 AWesker1976 wrote:


Sorry, looks like I was too slow in deleting that before you saw it. I judged it too incendiary and hateful to keep on the page. So let me calm down for a while before I speak on this anymore as I seem to have gone off and started a different path than where the thread was originally.

No worries. I understand certain issues hit further home with some people than others, but its a discussion best saved for somewhere else. And probably not on the internet, where hyperbole runs rampant and emotions flare quickly.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Are you a drinker? Because no, most drinkers don't see a problem with this. Mostly because drinkers rally with drinkers and drinking is legal, though still the most destructive habit in the world.

It's hypocrisy. Guaranteed, if prohibition came back (like it should), you'd have drinkers throwing all kinds of a fit, just like they did during prohibition. And you know what that's called? WITHDRAWAL.

At the risk of igniting an overly-heated argument...

I dispute that.
You can drink regularly, and never harm anyone, due to a little thing called moderation. 1 unit/day would almost never hurt anyone, although your liver may tire out faster than usual.
But smoking, even in moderation, is an instant health hazard. Second hand smoke even from 1 cig/day can cause seriour lung problems in another human (even as far as cancer, if they're suceptible), and the impact on yourself is much higher. Coupled with the fact that nicotine (a key ingredient in tobacco products) is one of the world's most addictive drugs, you now have something that is hader to take in moderation than alcohol, thus resulting in an increased usage of it.

While alcohol can also cause cancer (pancreatic, iirc), the risk of it is far lower, and on small-scale drinking it's almost negligible.

Drunkenness, is quite dangerous, should you find yourself near any technology (cars, guns, facebook) or ledges etc, but a moderate and sensible drinker is unlikely to consume more than 4 units in an evening, and the average person metabolises 1 unit per hour. Coupled with the fact that most of the risk of harm is upon yourself, it is somewhat less dangerous than smoking.

And if we're going to argue about alcoholism, we should also take into account full smoking addiction (20+ per day anyone?).

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Ok. Since we're apparently all hugging and moving on, I'll edit in my final point. I was keying in on the hypocrisy. The very statement that "I think smoking in a confined space with non-smokers" OK well "Drinking in a confined space with non-drinkers can be unhealthy and annoying too." That's what hypocrisy means. Recognizing a fault like that in someone else, without recognizing it in yourself first and then shutting up and dealing with the same discomforts you place on other people around you.

You missed this part where I had a point and not constructing arguments to be blown over by a breath. There was a point. I don't care how accepted a point of view it is that drinking is no big deal, when you start denegrating the act of smoking with "blowing it in my face" wtf? Stop breathing in my face! Oh, neither of us were doing that? I think we have a fundamental problem about how we view activities we do not ourselves participate in. Such a problem is this thing that we do not even recognize it for what it is in the first place. Out right, bold faced, blatant, pie in the sky, hypocrisy.

When I stop hearing these b.s. stats lines about how bad smoking is personally, healthily, or otherwise, then the hypocrisy will cease to be. Currently, the two things aren't even sold on the same standard, let alone looked at, so we can't even begin having this conversation until we come to an agreement about how fubar the scale of things really is, with Alcohol kicking its feet from the tresses of its high horse to anti-smoking adds proliferating every single tv channel and station in the world.

It was fine when MADD was competing with Truth.org for airtime, but now we've just dropped alcohol off the cliff entirely and don't care because that's who fills up Super Bowl airtime. That's also why there is no Marlboro Man anymore, but Crown or w/e is the hottest drink in the world. It all comes back to the same, existing problem: hypocrisy, and it starts in our own heads.

Heh, arguing w/yourself?

RedWing, are you going to calm down?

The 'blowing smoke in the face' was a bit of a joke, but I guess in the context you mistook it. Anyways, I hope you understand that being in a confined space with someone smoking is very different from being around someone who's enjoying a cold one.

I'm not going to discuss the pros and cons of smoking and drinking here, where it doesn't belong and is off topic, so we can go back to talking about enjoying some beer with 40k.

 Selym wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Are you a drinker? Because no, most drinkers don't see a problem with this. Mostly because drinkers rally with drinkers and drinking is legal, though still the most destructive habit in the world.

It's hypocrisy. Guaranteed, if prohibition came back (like it should), you'd have drinkers throwing all kinds of a fit, just like they did during prohibition. And you know what that's called? WITHDRAWAL.

At the risk of igniting an overly-heated argument...

I dispute that.
You can drink regularly, and never harm anyone, due to a little thing called moderation. 1 unit/day would almost never hurt anyone, although your liver may tire out faster than usual.
But smoking, even in moderation, is an instant health hazard. Second hand smoke even from 1 cig/day can cause seriour lung problems in another human (even as far as cancer, if they're suceptible), and the impact on yourself is much higher. Coupled with the fact that nicotine (a key ingredient in tobacco products) is one of the world's most addictive drugs, you now have something that is hader to take in moderation than alcohol, thus resulting in an increased usage of it.

While alcohol can also cause cancer (pancreatic, iirc), the risk of it is far lower, and on small-scale drinking it's almost negligible.

Drunkenness, is quite dangerous, should you find yourself near any technology (cars, guns, facebook) or ledges etc, but a moderate and sensible drinker is unlikely to consume more than 4 units in an evening, and the average person metabolises 1 unit per hour. Coupled with the fact that most of the risk of harm is upon yourself, it is somewhat less dangerous than smoking.

And if we're going to argue about alcoholism, we should also take into account full smoking addiction (20+ per day anyone?).

Alright, this is for real my last post on this thread because I'm starting to see blinders coming down now.

You can drink regularly and harm everyone. You also do create instant harm to yourself when you imbibe alcohol because the alcohol your body produces is already regulated to a very specific amount. Any more and you are technically overdosing. You drink and your liver hardens a little more. I smoke and my lungs shrink a bit more. Maybe I get cancer from 1 cigaretter and maybe you get cancer from a 6 pack. It's the same damn thing, and not even because I've already explained that the primary carcinogens in smoking are additives and not natural to tobacco itself, and this still doesn't address the real smoking agent I'm a proponent for, which is marijuana, which has no known negative side effects. Nicotine addictive? Sure. Worse than alcohol? The crap explodes in the right proportions! And you want to drink that?

One is a plant. The other is a bathtub brew. And one is scrutinized harder than the other. The fact I've even had to take this much time out to strike down the tired old "Second Hand" argument that has long since been defeated as false should tell you how totally screwed up these topics are. -__-*

And I'm done, once and for all. Shouldn't have to answer anyone or anything else.

The point was: Hypocrisy. Not, whether or not you should do it or not. If you want to drink, let me smoke. Otherwise, shut up. You're being stupid. And that's not just about Warhammer games or smoking in bars. I mean period. In my own home, on the street, in my car, in front of the god damn hospital if I want. Let us smoke. Because nothing my 5 gram cigarette has is any worse than your 40 oz bottle or 10 gallon pick-up truck.

And no; Not arguing with myself. Posted that in case whoever quoted me earlier missed that edit, since the posts are flying up now.

Blacksails: ....

I don't think anyone was saying can't smoke.

Just not in a confined space with a non-smoker. Second hand smoke is harmful.

For the record, I'm pro legalization of everything. If you want to show up to a game with me some level of high, go for it. I don't mind. Personally, all I'd ask is that smoke outside and not inside around me. That's it. Stop accusing everyone of hypocrisy.

Is it destructive? Probably.

Will banning it stop it?

Probably not. Humans would just find another chemical way of getting off. NO human society has been free of intoxicants or ways of jiggling the brain's pleasure centres.
(some groups even use prayer for this. I'd just rather have a beer.)

If we couldn't drink it, we chewed it, or we smoked it.
Humanity is, at its core, a group of wastoids waiting to partake.

Smoking does not necessarily cause cancer (it DID give my dad emphy, though. The daily inhaled industrial chemicals gave him cancer - poly/hexavalent chromium fumes, the acid fumes, the cyanide, the NaOH, you name it). To cap it off, some people just DON'T get cancer from smoking. My granddad died from a heart attack and stroke. He'd been smoking for 50+ years, a pack a day man. Sure, the smoking probably contributed to the stroke/heart issues, but he didn't get cancer.)

On the other hand, some humans cannot tolerate alcohol AT ALL. They cannot process it properly and it sends them into an insane rage-bot. These societies generally smoked or chewed their intoxicants (coca or betel nut, for example).


But the main reason I do it? I'm a legal adult. It's legal for me to do so. I do it within limits, and medico-legal or religious objectors will not stop me while it continues to be so.
It also keeps the munchkins out of my gaming spaces. Which is a win-win, as far as I'm concerned.

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't think anyone was saying can't smoke.

Just not in a confined space with a non-smoker. Second hand smoke is harmful.

For the record, I'm pro legalization of everything. If you want to show up to a game with me some level of high, go for it. I don't mind. Personally, all I'd ask is that smoke outside and not inside around me. That's it. Stop accusing everyone of hypocrisy.

Then go drink outside, because second hand intoxication is bad for my health. And I'm not calling "everyone" a hypocrite. Just those that have a problem with second hand smoke but not second hand drinking. But let's shift gears: A closed up room you say? How about a well ventilated room? How about a room with fans and aerosol? I'd ask that for drinkers too, since after a few beers, the breath becomes rank and that fills the room, especially if someone was just a little tipsy and turned their drink over on the table.

I can do this all day, but I really don't want to because honestly it's just a little insulting that I would have to keep on at this point. And again: That's what hypocrisy is. Doing something yourself and then chastising another for it. And again, I'm not on some uber-rage tirade about how everyone should live clean and forever. Screw that. Do what you want. But don't turn around and tell me I can't do the same thing. Especially when the food we eat is worse than the cigarettes we smoke.

"Second hand intoxication"?

I can't take you seriously when you're equating having one or two beers at a game of 40k with smoking in a room with someone.

In a well ventilated room where I won't be breathing the smoke? Sure.

Be reasonable. If we're going to be talking about spilling beer as a problem, then why not also point out spilling ashes?

I'm not being hypocritical. Second hand smoke is a thing; people with asthma as an example can be put in very real harm. Again, I'm fine with you smoking at a game, I just don't want to be breathing in the second hand smoke. There is no such thing as "second hand intoxication". Bad breath is a problem with or without alcohol and affects smokers too.

Just, be reasonable. Don't make this black or white. If you had a problem with me drinking around you, I wouldn't do it, the same way I'd expect you to give me the same respect with your smoking.

*Edit* I'm also, yet again, not discussing the health issues associated with drinking or smoking. Just the second hand smoke aspect for non-smokers. Nothing more.

 Blacksails wrote:
"Second hand intoxication"?

I can't take you seriously when you're equating having one or two beers at a game of 40k with smoking in a room with someone.

In a well ventilated room where I won't be breathing the smoke? Sure.

Be reasonable. If we're going to be talking about spilling beer as a problem, then why not also point out spilling ashes?

I'm not being hypocritical. Second hand smoke is a thing; people with asthma as an example can be put in very real harm. Again, I'm fine with you smoking at a game, I just don't want to be breathing in the second hand smoke. There is no such thing as "second hand intoxication". Bad breath is a problem with or without alcohol and affects smokers too.

Just, be reasonable. Don't make this black or white. If you had a problem with me drinking around you, I wouldn't do it, the same way I'd expect you to give me the same respect with your smoking.

*Edit* I'm also, yet again, not discussing the health issues associated with drinking or smoking. Just the second hand smoke aspect for non-smokers. Nothing more.

You're being a hypocrite, is what you are doing, and you don't even realize it yet.

"I'm not talking about health issues....Just the second hand smoke aspect for non-smokers." Which does what? Affects their health? Or no, is just really irritating like a drinker getting loud, obnoxious, knocking sh!t over and ruining the table. And then this line "people with asthma." Health issue.

Spilling ash? We have ash trays and you can blow that away. Where as alcohol will melt the color and plastic off of your models if you let it.

And what is second hand intoxication? That's where you start drinking, the room starts stinking, everyone gets loud and someone starts arguing about their football team on tv. Don't tell me it doesn't exist, because it does and sometimes it ends with a group of guys beating the tar out of some fool who had the great misfortune to just be walking by at the time. Or perhaps a smoker?

What I find interesting here though is that you don't see smokers throwing this argument up, unless we're being told by drinkers how bad and disgusting our habits are. We just want to smoke and we can't because fatty liver has a problem with some CO2 he's already exhaling, and not the CO2 coming out the back of his truck.

So, what is hypocrisy again? Demanding something from another without recognizing it in yourself? Thank you. I really hope this is the end of this now. If not, shoot me a pm and we can keep on. Also take note that it was drinkers who first started b!tching about smokers. Not the other way around. How do I know this? Because so far I'm the only smoker who seems to have made this connection so far. And that's not surprising considering how beaten over the head we are with fallacies like this. It's been easier for us to shut up and take what we get than deal with the hordes of people trying to shame us for our choices. Something that drinkers didn't do during prohibition, mind you.

If it isn't clear: I don't have a problem with Drinkers until they have a problem with Smokers because at that point, what makes you so special? Especially after the science behind second hand smoke concludes "not a damn thing." If you don't believe me, start tracing where a lot of these reports come from. You've got both sides saying they've got evidence, but one side is being sponsored by a special interest group. So it stands to reason that said special interest group would likely doctor their results to fit their purposes. And this is historically true. Otherwise the word "liar" wouldn't exist. History is full of them.

Alright, lets lay down some assumptions.

Lets assume that both the drinker and smoker are not being obnoxious. They're also not spilling whatever substance it is they're holding on to. We're also going to assume that smoking and drinking will make a room smell bad regardless.

Now that that's out of the way, and we realize that both habits can have negative aspects depending on the individual and quantity involved, the only issue then becomes how the other party feels about drinking/smoking at a game.

Working under the assumption both parties are also being reasonable and moderate in their consumption, we can assume that the drinker is not being any more loud and obnoxious than their usual self. The smoker, however, has the problem of second hand smoke, which can harmful to people, particularly those with asthma. There are workarounds to this, as we've collectively alluded to, which would solve this problem. Then everyone's happy.

Stop making this black and white. Stop accusing people of being hypocrites. Stop making this an us vs. them ordeal. It isn't any of those things.

Consider that you hate people bitching about smokers, yet you yourself are throwing a fit over drinkers. I'm not demanding anything besides respect.

I'll say it again, if you had a problem with me enjoying a beer at a game, I wouldn't drink. I'd expect the same from you with smoking.

But yes, I hope we can continue this (in a civil manner) elsewhere through PM. I feel like one or both of us are a little riled up and its clouding our ability to reason properly. Again, I personally don't mind, and am pro-legalization. I'm on your side.

 Blacksails wrote:
Alright, lets lay down some assumptions.

Lets assume that both the drinker and smoker are not being obnoxious. They're also not spilling whatever substance it is they're holding on to. We're also going to assume that smoking and drinking will make a room smell bad regardless.

Now that that's out of the way, and we realize that both habits can have negative aspects depending on the individual and quantity involved, the only issue then becomes how the other party feels about drinking/smoking at a game.

Working under the assumption both parties are also being reasonable and moderate in their consumption, we can assume that the drinker is not being any more loud and obnoxious than their usual self. The smoker, however, has the problem of second hand smoke, which can harmful to people, particularly those with asthma. There are workarounds to this, as we've collectively alluded to, which would solve this problem. Then everyone's happy.

Stop making this black and white. Stop accusing people of being hypocrites. Stop making this an us vs. them ordeal. It isn't any of those things.

Consider that you hate people bitching about smokers, yet you yourself are throwing a fit over drinkers. I'm not demanding anything besides respect.

I'll say it again, if you had a problem with me enjoying a beer at a game, I wouldn't drink. I'd expect the same from you with smoking.

But yes, I hope we can continue this (in a civil manner) elsewhere through PM. I feel like one or both of us are a little riled up and its clouding our ability to reason properly. Again, I personally don't mind, and am pro-legalization. I'm on your side.

Except that second hand smoke isn't any more harmful than breathing in CO2 which is omnipresent, which is what I keep telling you and you keep ignoring. Asthma is exaggerated by second hand smoke? My stomach condition is exaggerated by the smell of alcohol, and I'm going to throw up.

This isn't black and white: It's a matter of, "If you are going to b!tch about something like that, expect to get it thrown back in your face." The only "people" I'm accusing of being a hypocrite are drinkers who think there is something wrong with smoking, beyond what their drinks can do.

Consider that I wouldn't b!tch about drinkers, if drinkers wouldn't b!tch about smokers. Which is what has happened. I'm not demanding anything besides the same amount of consideration given to drinkers, which smokers are not given, not by a long shot. You are demanding respect? Not hardly. Respect is earned and if you can't respect a smokers right, then I'm not going to respect a drinkers right either.

I'll say it again, if you had a problem with me enjoying a cigarette while you were drinking, then you are a hypocrite. I'll still put the damn thing out, but you'd better be throwing that can away too.


Let's take that last sentence and flip it around to an applicable statement about myself personally. I don't walk into a hookah bar and slap the beers out of everyones hand because this is a smoking establishment and how dare you drink here. That would be being a hypocrite on my part. Instead, I shut up, let you have your drink and smoke my cigarette as discreetly as possible, because I have to or else some a-hole is going to come and tell me all about how bad my smoking is.