Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

During Nikea Magnus has a vision of the future. It is unclear whether this is foresight or if this vision is forced unto him by Tzeentch or some other means, what are your opinions?

Instead of returning back to prospero immediately after Nikea, why didn't Magnus tell the emperor about the vision he just received literally 2 minutes ago....??? this seems very stupid. This would have prevented the whole part where he fly's to Terra afterwards... seems very very stupid.

This leads me to the more important piece of knowledge:
I may be confused about some things in the Horus heresy ive read up to First heretic and Aurelian. I started wondering about the timeline and some things not openly stated but suggested and wondered what you guys thought.

Okay so we know that after returning from a 9 day voyage Magnus returns unable to prevent Horus's fall well name it. He then fly's to Terra very shortly afterwards to warn his father. a couple of important things happen during this time.

1) As Magnus fly's through the aether he gets to the gateway of Terra aka the golden throne, he cant get in and believes his journey all for naught, he is surrounded by an entity in the warp and it offers him power (tzeentch) he drinks in the seemingly kind offer of power and begins climbing the 'lattice' he feels a shrieking wail and hears a scream of unmaking.

Now i have not read Outcast dead, but apparently James Swallow said to someone that this process that seemed instant while reading thousand sons actually took up to a year, while magnus was jacked up with tzeentch juice he was unknowingly battling the emperor to get into and unknowingly break the golden throne. Meanwhile all magnus was trying to do was tell the emperor about Horus's betrayal. And because this was happening in the warp it seemed very quick to magnus, but apparently this battle tired the emperor out quite badly. Atlast he gets through their minds link and we know the rest. Is this sourced anywhere that this battle that Magnus had no idea was taking place is cannon or made up?

2) Tzeentch soon begins talking to magnus about the past present and future. He mentions that the space wolves are already on their way. This ties into the bottom note.
On page 405 of the novel False gods Horus tells his first openly traitorous council that Russ is going to apprehend Magnus with deadly force and that bringing him back to Terra would simply be a waste of time.

This makes me believe with the tied in fact that the emperor seemingly didn't care about the betrayal of Horus just spoken to him, that the emperor already knew about it before Magnus told him. This can only mean one thing, that Horus told the emperor right after being resurrected from the serpent lodge because Garro got to the moon after Istvaan 3, by that time Prospero was already purged. This ties in to the fact that Ahriham sees the betrayal of Horus ( the betrayal of the thousand sons by Horus) through Othere wyrmdrake in Thousand Sons ( butchered his name )

So all that means is that the space wolves were sent to kill magnus and the thousand sons (which was horus's plan ) for the fact of using sorcery. Not the fact of destroying the Golden Throne. I think this is what most readers believe, they think the thousand sons were destroyed because the emperor told russ to take them down using any amount of force necessary. When in fact it was Horus's words and a manipulated Valdor that used Russ to try and kill Magnus, which was all part of the Chaos gods plan. Take out the Golden throng, take out the astropaths and blind them, and take out the two biggest threats to the Sons of Horus and the traitors.

In the novel Galaxy in Flames Malogahurst ( spelt that wrong ) says that Prospero has been purged and that the thousand sons are on their side, ( though we later find out that Magnus hasn't pledged anything to the cause, see the book Aurelian )

So guys im 90% sure i got this right, let me know. I heard that outcast dead says that magnus's warning gets to the emperor after istvaan 5. This would make sense with what James swallow had said that magnus and the emperor were embattled for quite a while longer then anyone really thought of / about. And since it was in the warp on magnus's end it seemed very quick. This is the only plausible way of course because Magnus is already on the planet of the sorcerers by the ending of Istvaan 3 battle.

Please get back to me on this one guys im half asleep i got like 5 books all around me with markers hanging out and a cat snoring on my laptop!

Nobody? This is one of the more interesting characters in the series so far... figured you fellow dakkanuts would be all over this.

I am giving you an answer but it is not funny.

The Outcast Dead, quite a good book in itself, completely missed the previous timeline, in many ways, and to a point that completely broke that section of the setting for many people that were trying to get a holistic vision of the Heresy.

There are many threads in this regards, with people trying the impossible task of establishing a single timeline:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?321105-Temporal-inconsistencies-in-Outcast-Dead-(-)-Dropsite-Massacre-and-Prospero-s-Razing
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/

The best source of information (how could it be otherwise!) is here on Dakka. Here is some information collected by Pilau Rice

 Pilau Rice wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:

Posted these on the Black Library thread over in News and Rumours, a few quotes from the various books about this. They will hopefully shed some light on the course of events.

Spoiler:

"He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction." - A Thousand Sons, Page 535.

Spoiler:

"But what of Magnus?" asked Maloghurst urgently. "What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?"

Horus smiled. "Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus' treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe that I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of effort." - False Gods Page 405.

Spoiler:

‘Magnus lives,’ snarled Horus. ‘Then he may yet be a danger.’ ‘No,’ assured Erebus. ‘The spires of Prospero have fallen and the warp echoes with the powerful sorcery Magnus used to save his warriors and escape.’ - Galaxy in Flames Page 135.

Spoiler:

‘I see,’ said Horus, ‘and the Council’s concern is simply with Angron’s bloodlust?’ ‘Not entirely,’ he replied. ‘As I said, the Wolf of Fenris has been despatched to Prospero in order to bring Magnus back to Terra, though for what purpose I do not know.’ - Fulgrim Page 278

Spoiler:

Soon, only the Sons of Horus remained in orbit over Isstvan V. ... ‘What do you bring me, Mal?’ asked Horus. ‘A communication, my lord,’ replied his equerry. ‘From whom?’ Maloghurst smiled. ‘It’s from Magnus the Red.’ - Fulgrim Page 411

Collected Visions places Magnus message before Istvaan as well.

There is no mention of the message from Horus in Prospero Burns although we do have the Space Wolf who has the vision of Horus Betrayal. If the intervention by Horus did in fact happen, perhaps this is a choice by Graham to show that Russ chose to ignore this due to his animosity with Magnus? Why Russ would choose to ignore this I don't know.

Later, a short story called Wolf Hunt tried to fix the most glaring inconsistences, using "the warp did it" as an excuse. However, and while the timeline can be reconstructed regarding events, it doesn´t fix the way characters acted in previous books. Some characters acted after finding something and their actions are now done before they found what motivated them to act. Causality is broken regarding motivations. That´s not easy to fix.

If you want to draw a timeline, I would recommend you to get Wolf Hunt. But I think it is a lost battle. The more you know about this part of the setting, the most obvious the contradictions appear. Each book is enjoyable in itself, but all of them together will give you a headache. Sadly, it is a mess.

My understanding, insofar as the timeline, is that.

Council of Nikea; 1KSons and all other legions are banned from using sorcery and any psychic powers, Librariums disbanded -> Magnus attempts to contact the Emperor via warp -shenanigans -> Emperor gets pissed, sends word to Horus, who by this point is already traitor (or maybe not, I can't remember), telling him to tell Russ to take Magnus in for sanctioning. Horus instead tells Russ to cull the 1Ksons. ->Space Wolves assault Prospero.

Sort of, but not quite.

Magnus, thinking he had complete control over his sorceries and Warp powers, attempts to contact the Emperor on Terra from his crib on Prospero. In doing so, he breaks the Web-way gate under the Golden Throne on Terra, opening Terra up to all sorts of Warp-born threats.

Magnus realizes this, and realizes that Tzeentch has played him for a fool.

Then the Emperor sends Russ. Horus meets Russ first. The rest is history.

The most important bit here is that it's not Magnus' use of the powers that gets the Emperor to send Russ after him, it's the use of the powers that he can't control that ends up creating a very real threat to Terra (a threat that is still there, 10,000 years later), and that proof vindicates the Emperor's words at the Edict of Nikea.

 Psienesis wrote:
...that proof vindicates the Emperor's words at the Edict of Nikea.

Not completely; disbanding the Librarians critically weakened the loyalists during the Horus Heresy, forcing Guilliman to exploit the loophole in the Edicts to restore the Librarians for the Astartes Chapters. A compromise during the time of the council would probably have kept the Thousand Sons loyal and increased the effectiveness of the loyalists during the fighting.

The return of the Librarians to the Legions, and then the Chapters, is a double-edged sword. A short-term fix for a long-term problem, as we've seen plenty of Chapters fall to Chaos through their Librarians in the wake of the Heresy.

 Psienesis wrote:
The return of the Librarians to the Legions, and then the Chapters, is a double-edged sword. A short-term fix for a long-term problem, as we've seen plenty of Chapters fall to Chaos through their Librarians in the wake of the Heresy.

Just ask the Blood Ravens how having a Chapter-Master Librarian worked out for them. lol

 Psienesis wrote:
The return of the Librarians to the Legions, and then the Chapters, is a double-edged sword. A short-term fix for a long-term problem, as we've seen plenty of Chapters fall to Chaos through their Librarians in the wake of the Heresy.

A risk both Guilliman and Magnus believed justified.

In either case, not so certain it worked out terribly well... especially in Magnus' case.

 Psienesis wrote:
In either case, not so certain it worked out terribly well... especially in Magnus' case.

Essentially, what you have is an Empire ready and willing to play with fire at the risk of setting their own heads on fire. While Psykers are an invaluable tool to the Imperium, it is just as much an invaluable tool to the Warp as well. So until the Imperium can overcome the Curse of the Psyker, this plan won't work especially without the guidance of Magnus, the only Primarch to have had a better understanding of the goings on than the Emperor himself, who, considering how things turned out, probably wasn't as insightful as he thought.

To me, the greatest weapon at mankinds disposal is mankind itself. It's once we start trying to climb these echelons of power that problems start cropping up in the most unlikely of places.

Sort of. What we have in the Imperium, with its rising numbers of Psykers, is Humanity taking its first steps along a new paradigm of its evolution. Ultimately, all of humanity will be psychically-active (excepting the one-in-ten-billion Untouchable). The Warp, itself, is not a threat to Humanity, or psykers in general. The Warp, as it now is, though, is. The Imperium needs its psykers, and it knows this. Tithing psykers to the Black Ships of the Inquisition is a requirement of all Imperial Worlds, and for the safety of those worlds, those that cannot be tithed are killed. However, this will not always be the case. Once humanity itself achieves its psychic apotheosis, it can collectively battle the entities of the Warp that, currently, the Emperor is battling for them.

Magnus started out as a mutant and then got punked by Chaos Gods. He taught people how to be powerful psykers... he didn't teach them enough about the dangers of the Warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sort of. What we have in the Imperium, with its rising numbers of Psykers, is Humanity taking its first steps along a new paradigm of its evolution. Ultimately, all of humanity will be psychically-active (excepting the one-in-ten-billion Untouchable). The Warp, itself, is not a threat to Humanity, or psykers in general. The Warp, as it now is, though, is. The Imperium needs its psykers, and it knows this. Tithing psykers to the Black Ships of the Inquisition is a requirement of all Imperial Worlds, and for the safety of those worlds, those that cannot be tithed are killed. However, this will not always be the case. Once humanity itself achieves its psychic apotheosis, it can collectively battle the entities of the Warp that, currently, the Emperor is battling for them.

Magnus started out as a mutant and then got punked by Chaos Gods. He taught people how to be powerful psykers... he didn't teach them enough about the dangers of the Warp.

Which is true; I once read in passing that most of the Inquisition's knowledge regarding the Warp is drawn from Magnus' manuscripts.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Sort of. What we have in the Imperium, with its rising numbers of Psykers, is Humanity taking its first steps along a new paradigm of its evolution. Ultimately, all of humanity will be psychically-active (excepting the one-in-ten-billion Untouchable). The Warp, itself, is not a threat to Humanity, or psykers in general. The Warp, as it now is, though, is. The Imperium needs its psykers, and it knows this. Tithing psykers to the Black Ships of the Inquisition is a requirement of all Imperial Worlds, and for the safety of those worlds, those that cannot be tithed are killed. However, this will not always be the case. Once humanity itself achieves its psychic apotheosis, it can collectively battle the entities of the Warp that, currently, the Emperor is battling for them.

Magnus started out as a mutant and then got punked by Chaos Gods. He taught people how to be powerful psykers... he didn't teach them enough about the dangers of the Warp.

Which is true; I once read in passing that most of the Inquisition's knowledge regarding the Warp is drawn from Magnus' manuscripts.

Hmmm.. agreed. I had overlooked that aspect of the psykers. That said, if Ahriman is any example of where they must go, separate from humanity, it is still a pretty bleak and manipulated situation. But then again, if the Warp was once different or calmer, then perhaps it can be that way again. The Eldar did pretty well, up until they gave birth to Slaanesh.