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I'm stuck in a bit of a debate with myself.

I'm planning to field a 1750 pts army with lots of infantry, and a hard core of Heavy Support/Elite units.

Annoyingly, however, I have come across a thing I can't think myself out of:

Which of these should I take?

1) Havoc Squad w/+2, 3x Missile Launcher, 1x Lascannon [166 pts]

2) Vindicator [120 pts]

3) Convert some Terminators into Obliterators (I have three available) [??? pts]

In terms of models and FoC slots, I have only one HS slot available, and the upgrades for the Havocs and Vindicator cannot be changed any time soon.

Any advice?

vindicators aren't much to praise. They can cause ID to T5, but otherwise they're stuck with all the drawbacks of vehicles, and all the drawbacks of large blast templates. And they don't have that much firepower for their points.

Oblits and havocs (without the silly missile launchers) are both fine. Havocs are killier and cheaper, but oblits are more flexible, as you'd expect. Which you go with is going to be more down to personal taste.

Havocs with Autocannons. They are much more durable than a single Vindy could hope to be.

 g0atsticks wrote:
Havocs with Autocannons. They are much more durable than a single Vindy could hope to be.

While I like the suggestion and I am planning to get Autocannon Havocs, I can't get any different weapons than what I currently have :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
vindicators aren't much to praise. They can cause ID to T5, but otherwise they're stuck with all the drawbacks of vehicles, and all the drawbacks of large blast templates. And they don't have that much firepower for their points.

Oblits and havocs (without the silly missile launchers) are both fine. Havocs are killier and cheaper, but oblits are more flexible, as you'd expect. Which you go with is going to be more down to personal taste.

I may go with making some oblits then

Don't go with just one AV vehicle. unless you are running armour saturation, stick with the havoks.

 Selym wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:
Havocs with Autocannons. They are much more durable than a single Vindy could hope to be.

While I like the suggestion and I am planning to get Autocannon Havocs, I can't get any different weapons than what I currently have :/

I'd let you proxy them, just owning the model is good enough for my friends and I. Oblits maybe a better solution for you then. Having every heavy weapon on a unit that can deepstrike is pretty awesome. While you don't have to deepstrike, always having more than one deployment option is an added bonus.

Now if only they were fearless...

 g0atsticks wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:
Havocs with Autocannons. They are much more durable than a single Vindy could hope to be.

While I like the suggestion and I am planning to get Autocannon Havocs, I can't get any different weapons than what I currently have :/

I'd let you proxy them, just owning the model is good enough for my friends and I. Oblits maybe a better solution for you then. Having every heavy weapon on a unit that can deepstrike is pretty awesome. While you don't have to deepstrike, always having more than one deployment option is an added bonus.

Now if only they were fearless...

Mmm... The lack of fearless makes me see VotLW as an auto-take for them, as well as a nice big blob of zombies or two to attract some attention

I usually did better with havoks. never really liked the oblits so I cant talkaboutthem, My cannon of khorne/vindicater, I sometimes used just to show off the model but I always got more bang for my buck with havocs.
of course, I have not fielded a chaos army under 6th edition or the current codex (Ive only faced them).
In the armies I have faced, I've seen obliterators used more often then haocs and daemon engines over vindicators. I found facig them tht picking off an obliterator usually gave me an easy first blookbonus.

I find Vindicators perform well if not exquisitely in pairs if you infiltrate them. Many O' times I have managed a key victory simply by infiltrating and snagging first blood on some transports. Don't underestimate the raw strength of Vindicators, they are fantastic at shredding armor, and excel at killing tightly packed Tau units.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I find Vindicators perform well if not exquisitely in pairs if you infiltrate them. Many O' times I have managed a key victory simply by infiltrating and snagging first blood on some transports. Don't underestimate the raw strength of Vindicators, they are fantastic at shredding armor, and excel at killing tightly packed Tau units.

Assuming I do a good job of getting within 24", that's certainly a possibility to consider...

Before I comment, I should mention that I am notorious for my awful ability to hit with heavy weapons at my local club. I played space wolves, spammed long fangs. With 18 missile shots a round, I'd get about 3 hits on average. My blast rolls, I tend to roll 2/3 to hits and rarely deviate over an inch after reducing by BS. This will color my opinions.

I find that oblits are amazing for crushing heavy tanks, while vindis are amazing for crushing heavy troops. Havoks are good at destroying fliers and light-medium tanks, MC's, and putting wounds on basic infantry.
If you have a lot of plasma troops, plagues basically, 1-2 oblits and some havoks are the better choice.
With noise marines, I find that 2-3 oblits and 1-2 havoks are better. They are a static army, and really benefit from deep striking meltas and las cannons
If you rhino spam and have a lot of spawn, vindis are amazing. It's difficult for enemies to place shots, and spawn suffer against 2+ save termies and other troops.

Oh, another note about the oblits. You get more flexibility, but you also HAVE to use that flexibility. It obviously doesn't make much sense to bring obliterators only to hang them out on your side of the table and alternate between lascannons and plasma cannons. They're at their best up close and personal, where they can deepstrike in, blow up a tank with melta, then shoot down a flier with TL plasma and then TL flamer some infantry and powerfist them away in close combat the turn after.

In order to really do this most of the time, though, you're going to have to be deepstriking them, which is its whole bag of problems and difficulties. When everything works well - they come in on time, land on target, land next to some weak spot in your opponent's stuff, and have a few turns to cause mischief, they work very well. When they don't, then you might as well have just taken some fearless havocs with lascannons and started blasting away at something from cover turn 1.

In a way, really, obliterators are in the wrong slot. They're really best used when used like an elites choice, not HS. The CSM codex would certainly have been better if they'd joined their mutilator bretheren over in that part of the codex, but oh well. Anyways, it's probably better to compare oblits to combi-weapon terminators than to havocs.

 Ailaros wrote:
......In a way, really, obliterators are in the wrong slot. They're really best used when used like an elites choice, not HS. The CSM codex would certainly have been better if they'd joined their mutilator bretheren over in that part of the codex, but oh well. Anyways, it's probably better to compare oblits to combi-weapon terminators than to havocs.

This have never even crossed my mind, but it does make a lot more sense. There is so much packed into the Heavy Support slot tha t its impossible to play some builds other armies maybe able to field.

 g0atsticks wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
......In a way, really, obliterators are in the wrong slot. They're really best used when used like an elites choice, not HS. The CSM codex would certainly have been better if they'd joined their mutilator bretheren over in that part of the codex, but oh well. Anyways, it's probably better to compare oblits to combi-weapon terminators than to havocs.

This have never even crossed my mind, but it does make a lot more sense. There is so much packed into the Heavy Support slot tha t its impossible to play some builds other armies maybe able to field.

I agree.

If we had Oblits in the Elites slot, a single FoC could have this:

2x Oblits w/VotLW [146 pts]
2x Oblits w/VotLW [146 pts]

Predator Annihilator [140 pts]
Havocs w/+2, 4x Autocannons [141 pts]
Havocs w/+2, 4x Autocannons [141 pts]

[714 pts]

And then add a HQ and some troops, maybe a drake or two...

...

Actually...

That's starting to look competitive...

EDIT:

 Selym wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
......In a way, really, obliterators are in the wrong slot. They're really best used when used like an elites choice, not HS. The CSM codex would certainly have been better if they'd joined their mutilator bretheren over in that part of the codex, but oh well. Anyways, it's probably better to compare oblits to combi-weapon terminators than to havocs.

This have never even crossed my mind, but it does make a lot more sense. There is so much packed into the Heavy Support slot tha t its impossible to play some builds other armies maybe able to field.

I agree.

If we had Oblits in the Elites slot, a single FoC could have this:

2x Oblits w/VotLW [146 pts]
2x Oblits w/VotLW [146 pts]

Predator Annihilator [140 pts]
Havocs w/+2, 4x Autocannons [141 pts]
Havocs w/+2, 4x Autocannons [141 pts]

[714 pts]

And then add a HQ and some troops, maybe a drake or two...

...

Actually...

That's starting to look competitive...

EDIT:

Spoiler:

HQ:
-Typhus [230 pts]

Troops:
-35x Zombies [150 pts]
-35x Zombies [150 pts]
-Plague Marines w/+2, 2x plasguns [198 pts]

Elites:
-2x Oblits w/VotLW [146 pts]
-2x Oblits w/VotLW [146 pts]

Fast Attack
-Heldrake [170 pts]

Heavy Support:
-Predator Annihilator [140 pts]
-Havocs w/+2, 4x Autocannons [141 pts]
-Havocs w/+2, 4x Autocannons [141 pts]

[1612 pts]

then add 138 pts of something to make 1750 pts...

Fill the rest out with Typhus and butt ton of Zombies.

Check the spoiler


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those 138 pts could be adding VotLW to the PM's and adding 30x Zombies to the list

 Selym wrote:
Check the spoiler


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those 138 pts could be adding VotLW to the PM's and adding 30x Zombies to the list

lulz, I didn't even see that spoiler. Mediocore minds think a like so they say. Drop the Pred, add another hellduck.