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Well, this looks like a great spot to actually stick my not-terribly-competitive player neck into the conversation. I've honestly only been to a few tournaments so whatever I say is liberally crusted with salt. When I go I'm not expecting to win; frankly I look at whatever portion of my entrance fee goes towards prize money as a complete waste (I'm curious how much actually goes to prize support.. from my limited knowledge the fee mostly goes to running the event, bu that's another conversation.) I go to have fun, not think hard. The more special rules, weird combinations, and things I've never heard of I have to deal with the more I have to think.

All that said the electronic supplements, so far, haven't really been that bad in terms of making me know crazy new rules. It's incredibly frustrating that I have a harder time getting my hands on all of the rules these days, but I haven't come across anything yet that's really bad (although I know almost nothing about the Inquisition book... that might be horribly confusing) except for Adepta Soritas; that has nothing to do with power or balance, but rather that I could see being hit with that book without having seen it before would be a huge PITA to keep track of. Any codex is going to be like that though, so I can't really use that as an example of electronic being bad.

Now comp or some patches to address game balance? Yeah, that'd be nice. The problems don't seem to be coming from electronic supplements though.

To echo Lansirill, it does seem like there are two simultaneous situations that are coming to a head right about now.

Situation A: Rules Overload.
40k is not an easy game to get into at the easiest of times; there's a lot of rules governing many different situations, and due to GW's business model, those rules are separated into different things that must be paid for. Learning the rules of each army on a competitive level requires a lot of money. Now with the large increase in rules, it's becoming too much for many to keep up with. Furthermore, the additions bend some of the more traditional rules like Force Org Charts. This is the '6 books in a single army' problem.

Situation B: Degeneracy.
There are some pretty degenerate combinations available in the game right now, that typically lead to un-fun games for the opponent, and often the player of the combo. Powerful combinations are alright, but ones that basically nullify large sections of the rules can be off-putting to many who aren't totally prepared to deal with it. Even in that situation, the games that result are often not the ones that people play 40k to have. If the perception of the potential tournament-goer is that they will just get smashed by one of these armies without having any fun, there's no point in going. If tournaments are supposed to foster a fun, competitive, and challenging play environment, these combos may need to be addressed.

Note that Situation B doesn't, in large part, result from Situation A. The Degenerate combinations use Standard Ally 6th Edition rules that most people like in principle, and which appeared significantly before the current Rules Overload. In fact, most of the degenerate combos are from a single Codex, with Allies putting them a bit further over the top. Baron + Seerstar (Basically ignoring most rules about ability to destroy units), Buff Commander + Riptide/Broadsides/Whatever (ignoring rules of shooting with rerolls to everything and ignores cover). The Seerstar is nigh-invincible even without Baron, but Stealth, H&R, and Grisly Trophies put them another step above. The Buff Commander and Riptide are in the same Codex. The fact that one of the tipping points leading to now was a Rules Overload supplement that featured the Riptide and Broadsides, part of the Degenerate combo with the Buff Commander, means that these two situations can get confused easily.

Most of the Supplements are pretty reasonable IMO. Clan Raukaan or Iyanden don't particularly unbalance the game in and of themselves for example, but they do result in a lot of questioning as to what they do. It feels a lot like home-brew rules when only the player of that army really knows the rules for that army.

I go to tournaments to have fun, be challenged, and maybe win something if I'm good. If I'm not winning, I'm okay with that, very few people win things. If I'm not challenged, well, it's a less stressful experience at least for me. But if I'm not having fun, why should I spend all this time and money preparing to do this in the first place?

Just my 2c.

It's when I hear these average gamers going "Mike are you going to do anything about those jetbike council thingies with the 2+ re-rollables???"

To which the answer as a TO should be "No I'm not, It's a perfectly allowable unit in the rules and your opponent was not cheating in any way. I'm sorry you came unstuck against it."

It shouldn't be "You know what you're right, lets tone that bad boy down and make it a 2+ followed by a 3+. In fact, while we're at it we're going to take away fateweaver's reroll because that makes it too hard to beat a daemon army, and we're going to stop tau commanders allying with anyone except Tau because Space Marine Centurions with ignore cover is too unfair.."

That last sentence was meant to be hyperbole but you get the point. A TOs job is sometimes to just commiserate with folks.

 The Everliving wrote:

It's when I hear these average gamers going "Mike are you going to do anything about those jetbike council thingies with the 2+ re-rollables???"

To which the answer as a TO should be "No I'm not, It's a perfectly allowable unit in the rules and your opponent was not cheating in any way. I'm sorry you came unstuck against it."

It shouldn't be "You know what you're right, lets tone that bad boy down and make it a 2+ followed by a 3+. In fact, while we're at it we're going to take away fateweaver's reroll because that makes it too hard to beat a daemon army, and we're going to stop tau commanders allying with anyone except Tau because Space Marine Centurions with ignore cover is too unfair.."

That last sentence was meant to be hyperbole but you get the point. A TOs job is sometimes to just commiserate with folks.

Commiseration doesn't always get you so far ... Mr. Ignores the Best Overall at NOVA Despite Winning it Before :p (meant in fun, but maybe a little irritation that encouraging people to drop if they desire is used against us, as is an emphasis on generalship ranking that is in contrast to how we as the actual event organizers emphasize and rank things).

I don't think it's all about commiseration ... it TENDS to be ... but if you had 9/10 people not wanting something ... the smart thing to do as a TO is usually to not have it. If the NOVA only sold half its GT tickets, I'd personally lose tens of thousands of dollars in unfilled hotel room-nights. So it's a little more serious than just flinging my arms around someone's shoulder. That said, I'll continue to reiterate I haven't had any personal firm leanings toward rules changes at present ... there's a lot of meta development and new releases ahead still.

MVBrandt wrote:

 The Everliving wrote:

It's when I hear these average gamers going "Mike are you going to do anything about those jetbike council thingies with the 2+ re-rollables???"

To which the answer as a TO should be "No I'm not, It's a perfectly allowable unit in the rules and your opponent was not cheating in any way. I'm sorry you came unstuck against it."

It shouldn't be "You know what you're right, lets tone that bad boy down and make it a 2+ followed by a 3+. In fact, while we're at it we're going to take away fateweaver's reroll because that makes it too hard to beat a daemon army, and we're going to stop tau commanders allying with anyone except Tau because Space Marine Centurions with ignore cover is too unfair.."

That last sentence was meant to be hyperbole but you get the point. A TOs job is sometimes to just commiserate with folks.

Commiseration doesn't always get you so far ... Mr. Ignores the Best Overall at NOVA Despite Winning it Before :p (meant in fun, but maybe a little irritation that encouraging people to drop if they desire is used against us, as is an emphasis on generalship ranking that is in contrast to how we as the actual event organizers emphasize and rank things).

I don't think it's all about commiseration ... it TENDS to be ... but if you had 9/10 people not wanting something ... the smart thing to do as a TO is usually to not have it. If the NOVA only sold half its GT tickets, I'd personally lose tens of thousands of dollars in unfilled hotel room-nights. So it's a little more serious than just flinging my arms around someone's shoulder. That said, I'll continue to reiterate I haven't had any personal firm leanings toward rules changes at present ... there's a lot of meta development and new releases ahead still.

Don't you run the risk of solving a problem that hasn't developed yet? Nova has not had a serious drop in attendance and hotel rooms are not going unsold. Creating a solution to a 'might be' problem could lead to the problem happening in the first place.

DarthDiggler wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 The Everliving wrote:

It's when I hear these average gamers going "Mike are you going to do anything about those jetbike council thingies with the 2+ re-rollables???"

To which the answer as a TO should be "No I'm not, It's a perfectly allowable unit in the rules and your opponent was not cheating in any way. I'm sorry you came unstuck against it."

It shouldn't be "You know what you're right, lets tone that bad boy down and make it a 2+ followed by a 3+. In fact, while we're at it we're going to take away fateweaver's reroll because that makes it too hard to beat a daemon army, and we're going to stop tau commanders allying with anyone except Tau because Space Marine Centurions with ignore cover is too unfair.."

That last sentence was meant to be hyperbole but you get the point. A TOs job is sometimes to just commiserate with folks.

Commiseration doesn't always get you so far ... Mr. Ignores the Best Overall at NOVA Despite Winning it Before :p (meant in fun, but maybe a little irritation that encouraging people to drop if they desire is used against us, as is an emphasis on generalship ranking that is in contrast to how we as the actual event organizers emphasize and rank things).

I don't think it's all about commiseration ... it TENDS to be ... but if you had 9/10 people not wanting something ... the smart thing to do as a TO is usually to not have it. If the NOVA only sold half its GT tickets, I'd personally lose tens of thousands of dollars in unfilled hotel room-nights. So it's a little more serious than just flinging my arms around someone's shoulder. That said, I'll continue to reiterate I haven't had any personal firm leanings toward rules changes at present ... there's a lot of meta development and new releases ahead still.

Don't you run the risk of solving a problem that hasn't developed yet? Nova has not had a serious drop in attendance and hotel rooms are not going unsold. Creating a solution to a 'might be' problem could lead to the problem happening in the first place.

Well, my point is simultaneously that there IS no problem to this degree, and I don't see one developing. So yeah, to make any decisions right now would be absurd in the extreme. My main focus is on revising both the method and presentation of the format so it addresses some of the broader concerns various types have (ie emphasis). I'm part of the conversation here only in a wait-and-see mode ... I'm watching and paying attention to what I'm hearing, but I'm dug heels in against any kind of present change.

Also, NOVA sold (after pre-drops) a total of like 270-some unique 40k GT tickets alone, and sold out a couple of times over. We're definitely not in panic mode! The point is more that just b/c something is part of the game doesn't mean you can always solve it with commiseration; I was presenting a hypothetical, not bemoaning my actual condition.

Commiseration doesn't always get you so far ... Mr. Ignores the Best Overall at NOVA Despite Winning it Before :p (meant in fun, but maybe a little irritation that encouraging people to drop if they desire is used against us, as is an emphasis on generalship ranking that is in contrast to how we as the actual event organizers emphasize and rank things).

Mike, I LOVE the fact I won best overall at Nova. It comes up as example when the young whippersnapers these days ask me. 'Have you ever actually won anything recently?'

The W/L format favored by many events tends to focus on the best general though, even if the organizers are trying to place a higher emphasis on best overall.