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So I've been running a kit bashed Daemon Prince of Tzeentch for a while now essentially the cookie cutter build for DPs (Black Mace, Wings, PA) And have noticed something seriously depressing...


We as Chaos Space Marines, officially have the only Monstrous Creature, that can be effectively killed outright by str 10 hits

I am literally unaware of any other MC that has a T value less than 6...


I find it depressing the fear I have to face every time I send my poor Daemon Prince against anything that is a MC... Even 1 well placed smash attack can fell him from a Riptide.... I don't really mean to complain, or, maybe I do... But I find that disgustingly sickening as to how easy it is to kill them.... Isn't it bad enough he's upwards of 300 points, as a minimum cost to be viable =/ I mean, I would love it if he came with a Daemon Weapon base.. Would seem a little more in line with the fact he's, you know... A Daemon Prince... Maybe give him a better invuln save... Maybe make their Marks slightly less costly.... Maybe.... Maybe... I'm sad guys really really sad... It's going to be another 8 years before another CSM rework comes around XD

Honestly, though, no MC should ever have to fear being instantly killed by a str 10 weapons... Obviously an Instant Death weapon would be adequate, but... like...Really? T5? v_v" You might as well say he's a chaos spawn... But wait! Chaos Spawn of Nurgle have T6.... >.>

Anyone want to drink away their woes with me? I'll buy the first round.

I feel man. I feel that pain.

Fateweaver, Tyranid Mycetic Spores, Tyranid Harpies, Greater Knarloc, all Toughness 5. If daemon princes where T6 what would make them different then greater daemons? T 5 is fine, you want T 6? Go Nurgle. If he came with a daemon weapon base he would be amazingly OP and if he came with 4+ invul then he would be OP with Mark of Tzeentch. A daemon prince costs as much as you spend in him, i you think he is very fragile don't spend that much on him.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Fateweaver, Tyranid Mycetic Spores, Tyranid Harpies, Greater Knarloc, all Toughness 5. If daemon princes where T6 what would make them different then greater daemons? T 5 is fine, you want T 6? Go Nurgle. If he came with a daemon weapon base he would be amazingly OP and if he came with 4+ invul then he would be OP with Mark of Tzeentch. A daemon prince costs as much as you spend in him, i you think he is very fragile don't spend that much on him.

Where on earth are you getting the fact a Daemon Prince of Nurgle is T6?...

Don't troll the depressed man... Go back to your bridge!

Everything else, (aside from the spore mine trolling, good one btw) Fine I guess.

Still, bridge ---------->

Too many ellipses, man.

Interpunction aside, I share your feelings. I've thought about buying a DP to counter my friends Flying Hive Tyrant, but I'm still unsure due to the Toughness problem. However, it should be noted that in CC, Daemon Prince strikes first 90% of the time, so, when given a Black Mace, there may be nothing left to strike him back after several swings of the Daemon Weapon

...Excuse me?

Doesn't Mark of Nurgle grant + 1 toughness? Chaos spawn get T6, Marines get T 5. I don't own the chaos book, but i believe thats how it works. Also Mycetic Spores are the tyranid drop pods, they are toughness 4 and are monstrous creatures check your facts (although i evidently am no saint at that) before accussing me of trolling. I contributed to the thread, what did you contribute other then insult?

The problem isn't that Daemon Princes are insta-killed by S10, but rather that all Monstrous Creatures can attack at S10. This was the dumbest and most uneeded change in 6th edition... Without this silly Smash rule, MCs would actually be more bearable.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
...Excuse me?

Doesn't Mark of Nurgle grant + 1 toughness? Chaos spawn get T6, Marines get T 5. I don't own the chaos book, but i believe thats how it works. Also Mycetic Spores are the tyranid drop pods, they are toughness 4 and are monstrous creatures check your facts (although i evidently am no saint at that) before accussing me of trolling. I contributed to the thread, what did you contribute other then insult?

The mark of nurgle does indeed grant +1 toughness. However if you noticed with the new Daemons book they do not give marks to daemons but rather are a "Daemon of X". Similarly, the Daemon Princes in the CSM book follow this same format with the mandatory choice to buy what types of Daemons of X you want it to be. A Daemon of Nurgle in this case doesn't give a +1T boost but instead the Shrouded special rule and Slow and Purposeful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nym wrote:
The problem isn't that Daemon Princes are insta-killed by S10, but rather that all Monstrous Creatures can attack at S10. This was the dumbest and most uneeded change in 6th edition... Without this silly Smash rule, MCs would actually be more bearable.

I think a greater problem is that they should have made it so smash made them attack at I1 so that way they couldn't just insta-gib everything at max potential without having any downside (and obviously in this case the halving of attacks clearly doesn't offset the benefits). This way weapons that should be able to hurt them that attack at the slowest speed (power fists, meltabombs, etc.) would at least have a chance of either taking them down with them or wound them in the process rather than them getting scot-free from weapons made to handle them.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
...Excuse me?

Doesn't Mark of Nurgle grant + 1 toughness? Chaos spawn get T6, Marines get T 5. I don't own the chaos book, but i believe thats how it works. Also Mycetic Spores are the tyranid drop pods, they are toughness 4 and are monstrous creatures check your facts (although i evidently am no saint at that) before accussing me of trolling. I contributed to the thread, what did you contribute other then insult?

1 No.. Daemons Princes of Nurgle do NOT get +1 T

2 You don't own the book and are trying to tell me what I'm reading is wrong ( lol )

3 I agree the Mysetic Spore is hilarious since it is a MC, hilariously at that

4 I never said they weren't, and didn't claim to bash you, so please, read before you post again. I simply said it was funny you would post something like the Mysetic Spore since it as a MC doesn't actually do anything aside from functioning as a Drop Pod...

5 I actually agreed with you on the other ones.. So I don't know where you're getting your hostility from..

6 Your contribution of "Things will be different if they were different" Clearly.. noted... (?) but your notion of OP is as-cue. You didn't elaborate, you didn't provide poof of why it would be OP and simply stated your opinion, which, I don't mind

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Doesn't Mark of Nurgle grant + 1 toughness?

In most cases, yes, but sadly not in the case of a Daemon Prince.

"Daemons of Nurgle have the Hatred (Daemon of Tzeentch), Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful special rules."

Direct quote from the CSM Codex, pp. 33.

Having recently played a game wherein my DP murderized upwards of 600 points, I think it's more of a problem with targeting things...

I took:

Daemon Prince w/BBoS, DoT, Wings, PA [250 pts]

I used him to smash a Predator Annihilator, flame up hordes of zombies, took out Typhus, and got a lucky vector strike on a Heldrake.

Use him to thwack infantry and some vehicles, but run the feth away from Str 10 anything.

But, yes, the T5 and no EW is a little embarassing for a supposedly immortal sub-god.

If gotten in some lucky kills some games as well.

If he had EW, honestly, I'd cry in jovial glee.

Something so simple that doesn't change his potential squishy-ness from taking wounds.

Actually, I'm also kinda mad they took out EW from the Daemons Codex as well >: (

Btw, don't you guys think it's weird that someone complains that Daemon Princes are not Eternal Warriors just when GW publishes rules for Be'lakor, an Eternal Warrior Daemon Prince ?

*More booze*

I've been flicking through the Black Legion supplement, and it turns out that if your DP is from there, he can take: The Skull of Ker'ngar, which gives him Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will.

..take from that what you will...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nym wrote:
Btw, don't you guys think it's weird that someone complains that Daemon Princes are not Eternal Warriors just when GW publishes rules for Be'lakor, an Eternal Warrior Daemon Prince ?

Not really, this moan has been going on since the release of this codex, as the previous CSM dex had DP's for 110 pts with EW.

I never really thought about the Supplement.. Mostly because I don't own it

I've read it, I know the skull is 40 point ^_^ and gives the model Adamantium Will.

But that would mean that I would need to take a Black Legion army no? I simply cannot take from their armory XD

GoliothOnline wrote:
I never really thought about the Supplement.. Mostly because I don't own it

I've read it, I know the skull is 40 point ^_^ and gives the model Adamantium Will.

But that would mean that I would need to take a Black Legion army no? I simply cannot take from their armory XD

Personally, I'd do what everyone else does with it, which is to take it as an ally for my main CSM, and use it as a way of getting an extra HS/FA slot while I'm at it:

Main CSM:

-Generic HQ
-Useful Troops
-Useful Troops
-Fast-Attack-Something
-Fast-Attack-Something
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)

Allied:
-Daemon Prince w/Skull, BBoS, DoT, Wings, PA [290 pts]
-Cultists/CSM/Chosen
-Fast-Attack-Something
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bear in mind though, I may be wrong in how it's meant to work, the one I'm reading isn't mine...

 Selym wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I never really thought about the Supplement.. Mostly because I don't own it

I've read it, I know the skull is 40 point ^_^ and gives the model Adamantium Will.

But that would mean that I would need to take a Black Legion army no? I simply cannot take from their armory XD

Personally, I'd do what everyone else does with it, which is to take it as an ally for my main CSM, and use it as a way of getting an extra HS/FA slot while I'm at it:

Main CSM:

-Generic HQ
-Useful Troops
-Useful Troops
-Fast-Attack-Something
-Fast-Attack-Something
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)

Allied:
-Daemon Prince w/Skull, BBoS, DoT, Wings, PA [290 pts]
-Cultists/CSM/Chosen
-Fast-Attack-Something
-Guns of some kind (Heavy Support)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bear in mind though, I may be wrong in how it's meant to work, the one I'm reading isn't mine...

But the supplement states you can't take artifacts from the original CSM codex, instead you take the Artifacts listed in the Supplement

GoliothOnline wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
...Excuse me?

Doesn't Mark of Nurgle grant + 1 toughness? Chaos spawn get T6, Marines get T 5. I don't own the chaos book, but i believe thats how it works. Also Mycetic Spores are the tyranid drop pods, they are toughness 4 and are monstrous creatures check your facts (although i evidently am no saint at that) before accussing me of trolling. I contributed to the thread, what did you contribute other then insult?

1 No.. Daemons Princes of Nurgle do NOT get +1 T Oh, well thanks for clearing that up

2 You don't own the book and are trying to tell me what I'm reading is wrong ( lol ) Please quote exactly where i was '' trying to tell me what I'm reading is wrong'', i don't remember saying this

3 I agree the Mysetic Spore is hilarious since it is a MC, hilariously at that

4 I never said they weren't, and didn't claim to bash you, so please, read before you post again. I simply said it was funny you would post something like the Mysetic Spore since it as a MC doesn't actually do anything aside from functioning as a Drop Pod... Except you didn't say that did you? You said ''Don't troll the depressed man... Go back to your bridge!' and'' spore mine trolling''. If you meant no offense, none taken. But calling someone a troll over a mistake is rather insulting in my view

5 I actually agreed with you on the other ones.. So I don't know where you're getting your hostility from.. Really? ''Still, bridge ----------> '' just radiates welcome to you?

6 Your contribution of "Things will be different if they were different" Clearly.. noted... (?) but your notion of OP is as-cue. You didn't elaborate, you didn't provide poof of why it would be OP and simply stated your opinion, which, I don't mind --> Oh, then allow me to elaborate. I thought it would be apparent. In the OP you suggested giving him a better invul save, which was when i was under the impression the prince had access to normal chaos marks, so i assumed it would give him a 3+ invul when marked with Tzeentch, but either way a 4+ invul re-rolling 1's is just as bad when on a FMC. Also a standard daemon weapon on a model with high Initiative, AP 2 by default and the ability to smash (which is even worse, because smash modifier happens before the daemon weapon one, then you would add the D6) has obvious flaws in balance.

Not to mention the amount of ways that Daemon princes can circumvent this 'fragility' such as Grimour, Being Daemons of Tzeentch/Nurlge, Possible Iron Arm/Invisability, Taking Bal'kor, that skull thing or greater rewards. Don't forget that the vast majority of weapons are snap firing at you if you have wings (And you do...). If daemon princes where so truely weak and in need of buffing, would flying circus be one of the top competitive armies there is today?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
...Excuse me?

Doesn't Mark of Nurgle grant + 1 toughness? Chaos spawn get T6, Marines get T 5. I don't own the chaos book, but i believe thats how it works. Also Mycetic Spores are the tyranid drop pods, they are toughness 4 and are monstrous creatures check your facts (although i evidently am no saint at that) before accussing me of trolling. I contributed to the thread, what did you contribute other then insult?

1 No.. Daemons Princes of Nurgle do NOT get +1 T Oh, well thanks for clearing that up

2 You don't own the book and are trying to tell me what I'm reading is wrong ( lol ) Please quote exactly where i was '' trying to tell me what I'm reading is wrong'', i don't remember saying this

3 I agree the Mysetic Spore is hilarious since it is a MC, hilariously at that

4 I never said they weren't, and didn't claim to bash you, so please, read before you post again. I simply said it was funny you would post something like the Mysetic Spore since it as a MC doesn't actually do anything aside from functioning as a Drop Pod... Except you didn't say that did you? You said ''Don't troll the depressed man... Go back to your bridge!' and'' spore mine trolling''. If you meant no offense, none taken. But calling someone a troll over a mistake is rather insulting in my view

5 I actually agreed with you on the other ones.. So I don't know where you're getting your hostility from.. Really? ''Still, bridge ----------> '' just radiates welcome to you?

6 Your contribution of "Things will be different if they were different" Clearly.. noted... (?) but your notion of OP is as-cue. You didn't elaborate, you didn't provide poof of why it would be OP and simply stated your opinion, which, I don't mind --> Oh, then allow me to elaborate. I thought it would be apparent. In the OP you suggested giving him a better invul save, which was when i was under the impression the prince had access to normal chaos marks, so i assumed it would give him a 3+ invul when marked with Tzeentch, but either way a 4+ invul re-rolling 1's is just as bad when on a FMC. Also a standard daemon weapon on a model with high Initiative, AP 2 by default and the ability to smash (which is even worse, because smash modifier happens before the daemon weapon one, then you would add the D6) has obvious flaws in balance.

Not to mention the amount of ways that Daemon princes can circumvent this 'fragility' such as Grimour, Being Daemons of Tzeentch/

Nurlge

,

Possible

Iron Arm/Invisability,

Taking Bal'kor

, that skull thing or greater rewards. Don't forget that the vast majority of weapons are snap firing at you if you have wings (And you do...).

If daemon princes where so truely weak and in need of buffing, would flying circus be one of the top competitive armies there is today

?

Alex, no..

You cannot get a prince the Grimoire buff unless you buy the Gimoire through Exalted Reward on another model first, thereby giving your prince a chance, on a 3+ to get a +2 to his invuln save (3++). That being said you cannot cast it on yourself. You must get it on another model (I'm guessing you're thinking of taking it on a greater daemon and using it on your Daemon Princes?)

T 5 is fine, you want T 6? Go Nurgle

Quote from your first post.

Flying Circus works because of Fateweaver, plain and simple. The fact you can take 3 Daemon Princes of Tzeentch in your heavy support section is why this is effective. Not because Daemon Princes are "Fine" Anything used enough is good, but Daemon Princes are lackluster for their point cost. The only saving grace, is to take them in a Daemon Army since they are by stretch, superior, but enough of Caemons, I'm talking C:CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and 1 more thing Alex, Daemon armies, as any Daemon player will happily vouch, are played purely on luck of rolls for mini charts..

The entirety of your game experience varies from game to game purely because of your "luck" on rolling for Psyker powers, Mini charts, and random buffs that could both help you and Banish you

Almost every C:CSM army could benefit from from Daemon allies. Be it divination buffs from a Tzeentch Herald, or through good scoring units of plague bearers, and the obligatory HQ can take Grimour. It's rare to find a daemon army that doesn't have a grimour, simply because it synergies so well, Fateweaver or no.

As for the quote, that isn't me telling you that you are reading it wrong. That's me presenting you with an option/solution (That later turns out to be illegal) . C:CSM Daemon Princes are good because unlike daemons you have fire support, you have access to great relics such as the Black Mace and Burning Brand. I would disagree that anything spammed is good, otherwise i would be taking a large amount of Mandrakes Anyhow, what about Bal'Kor, isn't he an option? Assured Invisibility is a huge buff for any army!

He is an option if you go out and buy the Epub / PDF online lol

Personally I feel that if you are taking a DP you want to be using the Daemon Codex so you can take the Greater gifts. They really help the DP survive the massive amount of shooting that are be used against it.

If you are committed to using the CSM then make it Lvl 3 psyker & roll on the bio table & hope for Iron Arm.

I feel the same way Nakor.

As primarily a CSM General, I have roughly 8k points worth, usually I run Daemon allies when I want to use MCs.. But I love The Black Mace.. It's just a shame that the only model in the dex that truly makes use of it, has to be so squishy :(