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One of my buddies who plays tau likes to balance his riptide on top on the Basilica Administratum


He balances the large riptide base on the pointy bits at the top of the ruin.
My question is this: I know riptides can go in ruins because they're jet pack units, and here's the relevant rule I need interpretation of:

BRB page 98
Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper
levels of ruins. Accordingly, only Beasts, Infantry, Jetbikes,
Skimmers and all types of Jump and Jet Pack units can
move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can
physically be placed there

So are the "upper levels" of a ruin defined as the bits that actually have floors, or can you claim the spiky bits at the top to be a "level"??

I'd just say he's on the upper level. It's not an ADDITIONAL level, just the topmost one.

The issue is: Is a "level" a flat surface with a floor? and therefore the riptide cannot go on the spikes, but would have to go on a level where it would actually be able to stand (1st or second but not third), or is a "level" defined as anywhere a model can balance, and therefore you can put models anywhere they balance ( on top of spikes, in window frames, bits of wall, etc?)

I say a level is between the floor of one level and the ceiling of the next one, so anywhere in between is that same "level". You can't stand on a windowsill and claim immunity to blasts that hit on that level's floor, for example.

So the highest level of the building is the floor of the highest level "and up".

I hope he isn't claiming cover as well

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
The issue is: Is a "level" a flat surface with a floor? and therefore the riptide cannot go on the spikes, but would have to go on a level where it would actually be able to stand (1st or second but not third), or is a "level" defined as anywhere a model can balance, and therefore you can put models anywhere they balance ( on top of spikes, in window frames, bits of wall, etc?)

The former. In the context of the rules as written, 'level' is quite clearly referring to the floor. The model actually has to fit into the available floor space in order to go there.

In the movement phase, the Riptide only moves 6". I'm not sure that's enough to get from the table to the top of that ruin... And if he's boosting up there in his assault phase, he's doing your next shooting phase a huge favor should you want to target said Riptide.

Unless I'm wrong about all of this.

He is mostly putting that ruin in his DZ and starting the riptide on top, so that it's about 10" up and safe from things like grav drops, as well as it then being able to see pretty much everything on the table.

Purple Saturday wrote:
In the movement phase, the Riptide only moves 6". I'm not sure that's enough to get from the table to the top of that ruin... And if he's boosting up there in his assault phase, he's doing your next shooting phase a huge favor should you want to target said Riptide.

If the Ruin is in his deployment zone he could always deploy there.

OP Ruins are Difficult Terrain so the model is allowed to be on top of the ruined wall in that pic you posted as long as it makes a DT test if it is moving there.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Purple Saturday wrote:
In the movement phase, the Riptide only moves 6". I'm not sure that's enough to get from the table to the top of that ruin... And if he's boosting up there in his assault phase, he's doing your next shooting phase a huge favor should you want to target said Riptide.

If the Ruin is in his deployment zone he could always deploy there.

OP Ruins are Difficult Terrain so the model is allowed to be on top of the ruined wall in that pic you posted as long as it makes a DT test if it is moving there.

Monstrous Creatures, i.e. Riptides, ignore Dangerous Terrain tests.

I play a dirty version of Tau and I think this is worse. It effectively protects his Riptide from assault and gives him a Line of Sight advantage over you. Unfortunately, I think the rules allows him to place it there because the model can stand on its own. I personally wouldn't do this because I don't want an $85 model sitting 12 inches off the board...

Just nudge the table every so often....

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Purple Saturday wrote:
In the movement phase, the Riptide only moves 6". I'm not sure that's enough to get from the table to the top of that ruin... And if he's boosting up there in his assault phase, he's doing your next shooting phase a huge favor should you want to target said Riptide.

If the Ruin is in his deployment zone he could always deploy there.

OP Ruins are Difficult Terrain so the model is allowed to be on top of the ruined wall in that pic you posted as long as it makes a DT test if it is moving there.

Monstrous Creatures, i.e. Riptides, ignore Dangerous Terrain tests.

I play a dirty version of Tau and I think this is worse. It effectively protects his Riptide from assault and gives him a Line of Sight advantage over you. Unfortunately, I think the rules allows him to place it there because the model can stand on its own. I personally wouldn't do this because I don't want an $85 model sitting 12 inches off the board...

When I said DT I meant Difficult Terrain test, sorry if that was not clear.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just nudge the table every so often....

1) That is an unsportsmanlike move and rather rude to do that on purpose.
2) WMS would be used in that situation if I was the one with the model in that location.

So just to clarify, this:

is a totally legal starting position for a riptide?
It seems kind of jerkish, but i can see the legality of your arguments.

You say he always deploys it in his deployment zone and always gets to deploy on it...

Why not just not use that terrain piece?

Or, if you're rolling randomly for terrain setup like the book suggests, couldn't YOU deploy that piece?

You also randomly select deployment style, and there's 3 types. And the roll for sides, too, is random no? So how does he keep always getting this piece, it always being in his zone, and his zone always including it?

Spice things up. Or just take it and use it in your own zone. What I find hilarious is when I ask people "Why do you always do this one thing". When they have to admit "I like it because it gives me an unfair advantage" they get the "uh-huh, really?" look.

No, that's not a legal starting position for the riptide.

While there is an argument for it on the basis that ruins are difficult terrain, the Ruins rules make it quite clear that you're supposed to only be putting the models on each level, not balancing them on the tops of walls.

The Riptide dose have permission to be placed on any impassable terrain as long as it can be balanced (jetpack).
If we can find something that links to that, or is similar, then it would be able to.

EDIT: Is the top of a ruin impassable terrain?
A stupid question, but one that should be asked.

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
So just to clarify, this:

is a totally legal starting position for a riptide?
It seems kind of jerkish, but i can see the legality of your arguments.

not on top of the wall.

On the top level, sorry if that was not clear in my previous post.

I've never seen the Basilica Administratum in person, but it doesn't look like there's anywhere for the Riptide to actually "stand" except the very top.

not on top of the wall.

On the top level, sorry if that was not clear in my previous post.

Thats what i'm getting at. The top level is a square about 2" wide, and there is zero way the riptide can balance on it, so my opponent has been placing as in the picture, where it does balance, supported by the three spiky bits, as a supposedly valid ruins position.

As to why it keeps happening. We roll for deployment style, terrain density, and who places terrain first, as well as objectives and unit deployment. So if i win the roll for deployment of terrain, i'll take that thing every time and throw it in my end so he can't use it, but it means he can pull this of in 50% of games.

You should call it illegal on accounts of the special rule "Don't be a prick".

1) If he wants to place an expensive model like that there... sure, why not... <nudge>, <nudge>, <hit>, <WHACK!!>

2) Saw off one of the points on the ruin, problem solved!

3) If I can place my jumppack troops underneath him, can I assault? (after my terrain test).

At work so take with a grain of salt as my rulebook is nice and tucked away in a bookshelf at home;

Invoking WMS in this situation is not applicable and placing them model in such a way is not legal. I would argue that the model must fit where your opponent wishes to place it. If he is deploying it on a top floor, the model must first fit, and then if it is in danger of falling, then WMS would kick in to avoid damage to the model. You do not use WMS to place a model that would not otherwise be placed.



In the graphic example above, the red large oval base of a Riptide DOES NOT fit on the blue level of the ruins. You could not place this model by claiming WMS as the base when the base did not originally fit on the level in the first place. Now look at this second example,



In this case the blue demon rectangular base does in fact fit on the blue level. That requirement is fulfilled. However the yellow star in the matter represents a feature of the terrain that represents the level that would cause the model to become unbalanced and possible fall off. In this case WMS would kick in allowing you to place the model in such a way to prevent it from falling and damaging the model.

Frankly there is a thin line as to the question, does the base of the model fit on the terrain and YMMV in this matter on how you rule it with you opponent. At what point does a base actually fit in the space that you are wishing to move? Personally I would say that the space a person is wishing to move upon must be equal to or greater then half the area of the base as then it can honestly be said that the base fits into that space. Why such an unusual requirement? Because it eliminates such placement as mentioned by the threadstarter,



The blue posts represent the top of the posts that the red Riptide base could indeed balance on, however the combined surface area of the posts are not equal to or greater then the area of the base and therefore the base would never fit in that area of terrain.

That looks really abusive to me.
If it can't fit on the floor tile, then it doesn't fit.

Not legal for various reasons.

First, the "level" is defined by the floor. There is simply not enough room for a riptide to site.

If I was him, I'd just glue an extra couple of pieces of flooring to that top part and then everything would be just fine.

If he wants to put it on the top floor then he can put it on the top level using WMS.

 Talizvar wrote:
1) If he wants to place an expensive model like that there... sure, why not... <nudge>, <nudge>, <hit>, <WHACK!!>

Umm yea, that is along the lines of:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just nudge the table every so often....

1) That is an unsportsmanlike move and rather rude to do that on purpose.

Indeed, the places I know you need to ask permission to pickup another person's models.

If you intentionally tried to damage another person's model, you probably wouldn't be welcome at that store anymore.

Had a local player do this exact move every time he could get a hold of certain terrain pieces. Unintentional Social pressure changed his behavior. Is it a legal move, yes it is (or was determined to be after much rummaging through rule books). He would argue until he was blue in the face about it. So people just didn't want to play against him. Guess what, after two weeks he got the hint. His sportsmanship is much better now and is much more fun to play against.

I personally believe the rule means the highest floor the model can "stand on". If it can't be placed conceivably on that level then its a no go, but it may be that I am a new 40k player and don't understand the rules thoroughly yet.

Oh and yes intentionally damaging another persons models is worst than applying this unsportsman-like model placement.

This is technically legal. jet pack rule snippet: "...end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it..." which it is in this case.

Some advice I can offer: A) use the random terrain deployment rules and bring your own riptide (or anything else that would fit and take advantage of such a perch. see how 'he' likes it?) B) You can also suggest that such a position is tactically unfair. C) Or you can take advantage of the 'effectively' immobile location of the riptide and bring something that makes your opponent regret putting it up there. I suggest the latter approach since it is much more strategically satisfying.

For a grey area: perhaps bring a 'huge' 2-sided wall (made out of cardboard or similar) that happens to 'randomly' block LOS from the church wall to most of the rest of the board?

I think it's pure bs dude. I mean It can't stand on the level platform so why allow it

To me it's like standing marines on the level then marines that don't fit carefully balance them on the wall

I wouldn't allow it

 DeathReaper wrote:
If he wants to put it on the top floor then he can put it on the top level using WMS.

WMS would be fine if he's just worried about the model falling off... but the Ruins rules require the model to actually fit there. It doesn't.