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Around here, we have lots of flocked muslin forest templates - great for games like warmachine that don't use true LOS, but there are a lack of actual trees at our FLGS, so we only put one or two on them.

Because of this, we basically treat the whole thing as wooded. They don't give cover to vehicles, but they do give cover for infantry.


Along comes an out-of-towner, and as he shoots across a wooded template at his opponent's guys, he claims they don't get a cover save at all because they aren't INSIDE the template. We say they do because he's shooting ACROSS the template, at which point he pulls out the rulebook and points to the "unless it's in area terrain, the model must be 25% covered" rule.

Now we were I guess ignoring that because when it comes to the physical trees in the template, we move them around as needed to scoot models through. Since the trees are loosely mobile, we just assume the whole thing is "betree'd" and therefore counts as blocking 25% when it's really not.

I guess the question is - does shooting across vague area terrain like wooded areas give cover to units on the other side, or only if the actual trees you've placed down actually block models? It seems RAW supports the latter, but how do you play it? Do you have enough trees to make believable forests? Do you move them around when you move through?

 Spellbound wrote:
Around here, we have lots of flocked muslin forest templates - great for games like warmachine that don't use true LOS, but there are a lack of actual trees at our FLGS, so we only put one or two on them.

Because of this, we basically treat the whole thing as wooded. They don't give cover to vehicles, but they do give cover for infantry.


Along comes an out-of-towner, and as he shoots across a wooded template at his opponent's guys, he claims they don't get a cover save at all because they aren't INSIDE the template. We say they do because he's shooting ACROSS the template, at which point he pulls out the rulebook and points to the "unless it's in area terrain, the model must be 25% covered" rule.

Now we were I guess ignoring that because when it comes to the physical trees in the template, we move them around as needed to scoot models through. Since the trees are loosely mobile, we just assume the whole thing is "betree'd" and therefore counts as blocking 25% when it's really not.

I guess the question is - does shooting across vague area terrain like wooded areas give cover to units on the other side, or only if the actual trees you've placed down actually block models? It seems RAW supports the latter, but how do you play it? Do you have enough trees to make believable forests? Do you move them around when you move through?

Check the rules for forests (Cover save section on the page dealing with forests), they clearly tell you this information in the BRB. (The page number for forests are in the index).

Yeah, the way you're playing it is how it worked last edition, but this time around they wrote the terrain rules while seriously inebriated.

Here's hoping they get area terrain sorted out again for next edition. Although by that point, the way things are going you'll be able to take forests as a part of your army...

 insaniak wrote:
Yeah, the way you're playing it is how it worked last edition, but this time around they wrote the terrain rules while seriously inebriated.

Here's hoping they get area terrain sorted out again for next edition. Although by that point, the way things are going you'll be able to take forests as a part of your army...

Actually, Deathreaper has pointed out something I'd failed to notice as well. The page of rules for Mysterious Forests doesn't solely cover the Mysterious aspect. There are additional rules relevant to forests and this discussion on that page. Page 102 for reference.

 insaniak wrote:
Here's hoping they get area terrain sorted out again for next edition. Although by that point, the way things are going you'll be able to take forests as a part of your army...

What's wrong with that? You can already do that if you play Lord of the Rings

AHA!

I had not looked much at the mysterious terrain sections because we typically don't use it, we just called them area terrain.

Thanks for this! Page 102 sorted this out nicely.

Exceeeeept what about vehicles, then? P102 says if you trace your LOS through a forest the model on the other side gets a 5+ cover save. Vehicle rules say they have to actually be covered. Which takes precedence?

 Spellbound wrote:
AHA!

I had not looked much at the mysterious terrain sections because we typically don't use it, we just called them area terrain.

Thanks for this! Page 102 sorted this out nicely.

Exceeeeept what about vehicles, then? P102 says if you trace your LOS through a forest the model on the other side gets a 5+ cover save. Vehicle rules say they have to actually be covered. Which takes precedence?

I'd say the forest rule about shooting through takes precedence. The vehicle rules boil down to replacing the "part of the body" requirement for "25% of facing" and having the 25% rule supersede the Area terrain rule. The rule for shooting through forests isn't playing to the part of body requirement, nor is it an aspect of being in area terrain, so the vehicle rules have done nothing to overrule it. Of course, that's fairly tenuous but also most consistent with the forest rules explicitly not caring where the trees themselves are placed.

I believe the reason forests would grant cover to vehicles is because the forest rules allow you to pick up and move the tree models and rearrange them as long as they stay in the borders of the forest.

If you say the hull must be 25% obscured in forests, then you just have to pick up all the trees and arrange them around your vehicle, and that doesn't make much sense when its simpler to just give them the save without rearranging the trees.

Unless you're in a tournament, don't make this harder then it has to be. talk to your opponent before the battle about all terrain (will be a much easier conversation when you both aren't in a heated battle). Agree on things like this and both enjoy the game.

If you are playing with a regular group, try to collectively write these things down so you don't have to talk about terrain every single game.

I prefer to have as much coverage as possible when it comes to forests, to simulate real tree lines, even though the rules have addressed the fact most forests are usually represented by minimal amounts of trees. It is simple to magnetize the base of each tree so you can simply remove it from the board when it comes time to move troops through said forest or a tree otherwise becomes bothersome. The base plates used have a range of slots in them, each one with a north point to ensure the tree's are aligned in the same direction should they need to be moved during the game. This allows some more varied forests without forcing you to resort to Wobbly Model Syndrome every time the troops even gaze towards such lush foliage.

We have always retained the 'idea' of the area terrain nature of forests except that you CAN draw LoS through them it just confers a 5+ Cover.

 Ghaz wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Here's hoping they get area terrain sorted out again for next edition. Although by that point, the way things are going you'll be able to take forests as a part of your army...

What's wrong with that? You can already do that if you play Lord of the Rings

It's also been allowed in Warhammer Fantasy for 15ish years.