Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sure this topic has been addressed somewhere but I'm having a hard time finding a concrete answer, which unit is better overall Black Guard or Executioners. I'm well aware that they fill different roles but they are both a lot of points and including both doesn't seem practical in a game under 2k unless the units are small. So help me out here, which should I go with?

I find the only thing Black Guard do that Witches don't do better is tarpit a unit for a combat round or two. Stubborn 9 pretty much means you have to kill them to a man to get through them. Down side is, T3 5+ dies easily, so you're not going to hold for long unless the unit is REALLY big.

Sorry, BG, but 2 S4 attacks works about the same as 3 S3 attacks with poison... and Witches come out of required core points now.

So... Executioners are more useful then?

Generally speaking, yes Execs are more useful. Partly because they fill a role that can't really be filled in by another unit. S6 isn't on anything else DE get that's not a monster.

Many people are building lists around executioners right now. Often including a Lore of Magic specifically aimed at helping them, a death hag for support, and elements of the army that back up a block of 30-40 of these guys.

I think the Black Guard aren't really getting a place to shine in the new book, not yet at least. With a little support (less than executioners are currently getting!), the BG can really deal some damage.

Beasts and metal magic are great on them. Wildform gives your BG 2 str 5 re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound attacks and toughness 4 as defense. Metal can either peel some armor from your foe, give you +1 to hit, and boost your armor up with scaly skin.

Personally, I think the BG should have been given sea dragon cloaks to make them a definitive "anvil" for the high elves, but that may have been ridiculous (stubborn 9 with 3+ armor...)

Black Guards can do something that nothing else does in the book
get charged in the flank and not care
Last week end, I redirected a witch elf horde + CoB, then proceeded to flank hit with my combat block of Stormvermins. Easily broke them, they lost their frenzy (and CoB due to it being a BSB) and much of their punch after running away

If you're getting flank charges on main combat blocks, your DE player isn't running his chaff right. DE have the tools to EASILY deal with every other chaff unit in the game.

Rat Dart? One volley from the shades or dark riders will see it off.

Minimum block of slaves? 10 Witches will shred it.

Fast cav? Warlocks can run them down... or just blast them into oblivion.

And we haven't even talked about harpies yet, with their near-infinite ability to clog your charge lanes at will...

That's the theory Vulcan, DE have very good chaff indeed, but it doesn't always work well for them
In this case, for "chaff", I had 2*9 poisoned gutter runners, a Rat Ogre dart, 2 doomwheels and 4 rat darts
That's quite a lot to handle ! (plus he lost a Warlock unit on first turn when a Doomwheel accidentaly crashed into them by moving 17, sh*t happens)

I'll give you that. Sometimes the dice just don't like you no matter how well you maneuver.

I'd never thought of the Doomwheel as a chaff unit before... but yeah, it is, isn't it? It's fast, reasonably maneuverable, and fairly cheap for what it does. Add in that fairly dangerous shooting and a crushing charge and it's quite a deadly little handful for DE chaff to dealt with.

Executioners are certainly the hot topic right now, but I still rate Black Guard very highly.

Even a small-ish unit of 21 with the Razor Banner will rip most units to shreds. Remember that you're ALWAYS re-rolling misses on the first turn, and aren't in the second on very few occasions, and that you're re-rolling 1s to wound. They work very well with Wyssan's too, if you can manage to get it off. There's nothing that shreds mid to light armour units quite as well or as reliably as Black Guard.

 Vulcan wrote:
I find the only thing Black Guard do that Witches don't do better is tarpit a unit for a combat round or two. Stubborn 9 pretty much means you have to kill them to a man to get through them. Down side is, T3 5+ dies easily, so you're not going to hold for long unless the unit is REALLY big.

Sorry, BG, but 2 S4 attacks works about the same as 3 S3 attacks with poison... and Witches come out of required core points now.

Go ahead. Put your witches into black guard. I know who will win that fight.

The bottom line is, that black guard deny ANYTHING with ASF rerolls, and maintain theirs.

Black Guard are still one of the best combat units in the book. Yes, Witches are in ore, but they're still going to get baited off. And they need the same buffs as black guard. But, if my witches are in combat where they need mindrazor to win, I've probably lost them anyway. Whereas are still immensely good at fighting, even without buffs.


As for black guard vs executioners, it depends on the local meta. If there is a lot of MC, then executioners. If there are an abundance of high elves, black guard. No two ways about that.

I think the problem for black guard is that they are another answer to a question easily solved.

They excel at killing low toughness and lightly armored opponents. They do this extremely well, but the problem is every unit with a Repeater Crossbow is pretty darn good at it too.

With dark riders in core, and bolt throwers in special, not to mention warlocks (DOOOMbolt!) are a much better use of points when it comes to killing low toughness lightly armored foes.

That's why for points spent on elite infantry I'd much rather have the executioners because they provide a massive threat. High Elf characters with their BOTWD save? Sorry I just cut your head off with killing blow muahahaha lets see your 1+ 1+ get through that! They're also fantastic at grinding down MC which are currently dominating almost every meta.

All that for cheaper than a white lion and getting to reroll 1s? Lets do this.

thelordcal wrote:
I think the problem for black guard is that they are another answer to a question easily solved.

They excel at killing low toughness and lightly armored opponents. They do this extremely well, but the problem is every unit with a Repeater Crossbow is pretty darn good at it too.

With dark riders in core, and bolt throwers in special, not to mention warlocks (DOOOMbolt!) are a much better use of points when it comes to killing low toughness lightly armored foes.

That's why for points spent on elite infantry I'd much rather have the executioners because they provide a massive threat. High Elf characters with their BOTWD save? Sorry I just cut your head off with killing blow muahahaha lets see your 1+ 1+ get through that! They're also fantastic at grinding down MC which are currently dominating almost every meta.

All that for cheaper than a white lion and getting to reroll 1s? Lets do this.

Yes, executioners pose a massive threat, which is why you need another combat unit. A savvy opponent will know how to beat executioners. I.E. Anything that strikes before them. They're still T3 with a 5+ save. Black Guard have the virtue of ASF and hatred and the rerolling of 1s. That's why Black Guard are good, in the mirror matchup they ruin executioners.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Go ahead. Put your witches into black guard. I know who will win that fight.

The bottom line is, that black guard deny ANYTHING with ASF rerolls, and maintain theirs.

Black Guard are still one of the best combat units in the book. Yes, Witches are in ore, but they're still going to get baited off. And they need the same buffs as black guard. But, if my witches are in combat where they need mindrazor to win, I've probably lost them anyway. Whereas are still immensely good at fighting, even without buffs.


As for black guard vs executioners, it depends on the local meta. If there is a lot of MC, then executioners. If there are an abundance of high elves, black guard. No two ways about that.

I love how people assume that, after countless games over three rulebooks that I don't know how to manage my frenzied troops.

Try running a tirestrip (10 Witches with musician) in directly in front of your frenzy troops. If anything gets frenzy-baited through the chaff, it's that tirestrip... by which time the main block is already within charge range of my real target. And unless that tirestrip is being baited by a main combat block, they're going to SHRED it.

I've been doing this for a while. Frenzy is easy to manage, IF you put some thought into it. Even the 'must pursue part can be managed by simply maximizing to one side or the other, allowing your pursuit to go in the direction you choose. Against a 5-wide unit a horde can easily turn their pursuit vector about 75 degrees (since the pursuit vector is drawn from the center of my front rank through the now-offset center of your front rank), easily allowing them to hammer the flank of the next unit in line if that's what I want.

As far as Black Guard maintaining their rerolls vs. ASF... well, that's only true as long as the hatred holds out. High Elves aside, most stuff taking the ASF sword will be a character with I6 or better - say, Blender Vampires and the like. Besides, Witches (also being I6) will shred low armor High Elves just as easily as Black Guard... and fare just as poorly against high armor.

For that matter, thus far with the new book I've gotten a grand total of ONE spell off in a half-dozen games. And yet Witches have shredded and broken everything I've thrown them into without a single buff. Ogres, High Elves, Dwarves, Skaven, Tomb Kings... anything with a 5+ or less go down like tenpins regardless of toughness.

Anything with a 4+ or better faces my Executioners instead...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Yes, executioners pose a massive threat, which is why you need another combat unit. A savvy opponent will know how to beat executioners. I.E. Anything that strikes before them. They're still T3 with a 5+ save. Black Guard have the virtue of ASF and hatred and the rerolling of 1s. That's why Black Guard are good, in the mirror matchup they ruin executioners.

Which is why my lists now feature a block of 30 Witches to back up the 30 Executioners.

The two tirestrips of Witches almost always get underestimated as well, and tend to do damage all out of proportion to their numbers.

And when I charged both units of 5 warlocks into that unit of 9 Dragon Princes + Noble.... that was just plain funny how many wounds bounced off their 4++. Another unit whose close-combat ability get sadly underestimated...

 Vulcan wrote:

As far as Black Guard maintaining their rerolls vs. ASF... well, that's only true as long as the hatred holds out. High Elves aside, most stuff taking the ASF sword will be a character with I6 or better - say, Blender Vampires and the like. Besides, Witches (also being I6) will shred low armor High Elves just as easily as Black Guard... and fare just as poorly against high armor.

For that matter, thus far with the new book I've gotten a grand total of ONE spell off in a half-dozen games. And yet Witches have shredded and broken everything I've thrown them into without a single buff. Ogres, High Elves, Dwarves, Skaven, Tomb Kings... anything with a 5+ or less go down like tenpins regardless of toughness.

Anything with a 4+ or better faces my Executioners instead...

You forget that Black Guard have hatred as well. In every round of combat. And as to the point of armour, black guard can fight any armour up to a 4+ fairly well due to being S4. The problem with witches isn't that they're frenzied, it's that they're a combat unit with NO SAVE at all. They want to be in combat but won't survive any hits back. Whereas Black Guard are great at getting into a unit and pinning it there whilst you deal with the rest of the army. Sure, magic just makes them ridiculously good at fighting, but that's just icing on the cake.

 Vulcan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Yes, executioners pose a massive threat, which is why you need another combat unit. A savvy opponent will know how to beat executioners. I.E. Anything that strikes before them. They're still T3 with a 5+ save. Black Guard have the virtue of ASF and hatred and the rerolling of 1s. That's why Black Guard are good, in the mirror matchup they ruin executioners.

Which is why my lists now feature a block of 30 Witches to back up the 30 Executioners.

The two tirestrips of Witches almost always get underestimated as well, and tend to do damage all out of proportion to their numbers.

And when I charged both units of 5 warlocks into that unit of 9 Dragon Princes + Noble.... that was just plain funny how many wounds bounced off their 4++. Another unit whose close-combat ability get sadly underestimated...

Again, throw either of those into a black guard unit of similar size, I can tell you who'd win. But they have a different roll to both witches and executioners. Like you said, witches like fighting low armour, low toughness stuff and executioners like fighting high armour stuff. You use the black guard to pin units into place whilst maneuvering the rest of the army into place so you can then countercharge.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
I think the problem for black guard is that they are another answer to a question easily solved.

They excel at killing low toughness and lightly armored opponents. They do this extremely well, but the problem is every unit with a Repeater Crossbow is pretty darn good at it too.

With dark riders in core, and bolt throwers in special, not to mention warlocks (DOOOMbolt!) are a much better use of points when it comes to killing low toughness lightly armored foes.

That's why for points spent on elite infantry I'd much rather have the executioners because they provide a massive threat. High Elf characters with their BOTWD save? Sorry I just cut your head off with killing blow muahahaha lets see your 1+ 1+ get through that! They're also fantastic at grinding down MC which are currently dominating almost every meta.

All that for cheaper than a white lion and getting to reroll 1s? Lets do this.

Yes, executioners pose a massive threat, which is why you need another combat unit. A savvy opponent will know how to beat executioners. I.E. Anything that strikes before them. They're still T3 with a 5+ save. Black Guard have the virtue of ASF and hatred and the rerolling of 1s. That's why Black Guard are good, in the mirror matchup they ruin executioners.

This kind of sums it up for me.

Black Guard, unlike Execs or Witch Elves, don't need to be horded, or supported with a Cauldron/Tullaris, so they can be used in addition to whatever "main" combat block you choose. And they will perform. Black Guard are also far more reliable (they always get those re-rolls, and don't rely on frenzy) and can deal with a large variety of threats and, as a result, there'll be very few games where they won't have been a good purchase. They have a decent amount of attacks, so can deal with more numerous units, and a decent strength (and almost always the Razor Standard) so can deal with more armoured units. They won't deal with those individual types of units as well as Witch Elves/Corsairs or Executioners can, but it's the reliability that's their strongest point.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You forget that Black Guard have hatred as well. In every round of combat. And as to the point of armour, black guard can fight any armour up to a 4+ fairly well due to being S4. The problem with witches isn't that they're frenzied, it's that they're a combat unit with NO SAVE at all. They want to be in combat but won't survive any hits back. Whereas Black Guard are great at getting into a unit and pinning it there whilst you deal with the rest of the army. Sure, magic just makes them ridiculously good at fighting, but that's just icing on the cake.

If DE are getting into extended combats, they're already loosing. Sure, your whopping 5+ armor save makes a difference... but not THAT much of a difference, and even LESS of a difference against the type of units you REALLY want to pin down - you know, multi-attack S4+ stuff that is reducing your already low armor save to a totally ineffective level.

 Vulcan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Yes, executioners pose a massive threat, which is why you need another combat unit. A savvy opponent will know how to beat executioners. I.E. Anything that strikes before them. They're still T3 with a 5+ save. Black Guard have the virtue of ASF and hatred and the rerolling of 1s. That's why Black Guard are good, in the mirror matchup they ruin executioners.

Which is why my lists now feature a block of 30 Witches to back up the 30 Executioners.

The two tirestrips of Witches almost always get underestimated as well, and tend to do damage all out of proportion to their numbers.

And when I charged both units of 5 warlocks into that unit of 9 Dragon Princes + Noble.... that was just plain funny how many wounds bounced off their 4++. Another unit whose close-combat ability get sadly underestimated...

Again, throw either of those into a black guard unit of similar size, I can tell you who'd win. But they have a different roll to both witches and executioners. Like you said, witches like fighting low armour, low toughness stuff and executioners like fighting high armour stuff. You use the black guard to pin units into place whilst maneuvering the rest of the army into place so you can then countercharge.

And that's why I don't throw my Executioners into a match with Black Guard. That's a battle where I expect the AP shooting of my shades and dark riders to whittle them down, and the leading tirestrip unit of Witches to weaken them BEFORE the main combat block of Witches slams home into a much-weakened block of black guard.

Who, point-for-point, will have started out smaller anyway. 30 Witches are 60 points cheaper than Black Guard, which nearly pays for a unit of harpies or shades with which I can extend my deployment (harpies only), control your maneuvering, threaten your backfield, pick models off with shooting (shades only), and otherwise make the battle happen according to MY plan and not yours.

Dark Elves are not about 'this unit is best, that unit is best, yadda yadda.' Dark Elves are about SYNERGY between units, and applying your strengths to your enemy's weakness. And the SYNERGY between Witches (lots of low-S attacks) and Executioners (few high-S attacks) is much better than then synergy between Witches (lots of low-S attacks) and Black Guard (lots of moderately-low-S attacks). Witches and Executioners do very different things; Witches and Black Guard do very similar things.

I won't argue that model-for-model Black Guard thrash both Witches and Executioners. I won't even argue that point-for-point the Black Guard won't come out on top. You are 100% correct there.

HOWEVER, DE do NOT win on the strength of one unit. They win on the strength of how the whole army performs AS A WHOLE. Black Guard can do the same job as Witches even better than they do, yes. But they still need either Executioners or Cold One Knights to deal with the high-armor stuff that Black Guard WILL falter against, even with all their rerolls... and you note, both those can-opener units will be competing with Black Guard for special points, AND you still have to fill your core.

Witches, on the other hand, fill your core points requirement and DO NOT compete with your can-openers for special points. THAT'S their #1 advantage over Black Guard.

Well, that and being able to afford an extra unit because they're cheaper...

EDIT: As I read back over the thread, I suspect we're arguing over something that comes down to preferences rather than hard fact. The Black Guard are, indeed, a very strong choice. That I prefer more specialized troops just means I feel more confident in my ability to maneuver the enemy into the matches I want. You obviously prefer to have an option to throw a unit you KNOW will hold into a less-favorable combat, probably to set up a flanking charge by another unit so you can deal with it that way.

Both are valid tactics; both work well for the player skilled in using them. We can argue this 'round and 'round for years and neither of us will give an inch. So I think perhaps after you make your closing points we'll just agree to disagree, yes?

They are both good.

I think people summed up their strengths very well.

If we didn't have the core Min this edition, I would take both.

Right now I run Witches w/Cauldon and Black Guard next to it. Black Guard benefit tremendously from the Cauldron.

My High Strength attacks come from characters (usually flying or on dark steeds).

If I'm taking a Cauldron, then I like Black Guard more. Simply because they benefit from it more than Executioners (who pretty much reroll all their failed wounds anyway). I like stubborn because it gives my characters or monsters a chance to help out if they need it.

If I didn't take a Cauldron, I think I'd favor the Executioners though.

Both units are very good. Black Guard will beat nearly any other infantry in the game. Executioners are better against 2+ saves or better, and higher toughness.

That may be why I favor Executioners. I don't like the lack of reliability in the new 'Fury of Khaine' buff and instead just run Witchbrew hags... or Tullaris.

Or when I want to be really evil, both...

Eh, I think Black Guard are the more reliable option, since they don't need to be frenzied. Frenzy (especially at -3 Ld) is one of the least reliable rules in the game.

Black Guard do benefit from magic, but they don't rely on it, at least no more or less than most other units in the book. Even Executioners appreciate the benefit of Life Magic against all the fire they draw as they slog up the table.

I guess it depends on how much chaff your opponent is running and how much chaff/anti-chaff you yourself like to run. To be perfectly honest, I think the whole choice comes down to little more than personal preference.