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Was there a shoutout here that I missed?

 cincydooley wrote:
Was there a shoutout here that I missed?

Was there a threat to the Good Samaritans life that I missed before he drew his gun?

We should all take this man's lead and clean up our towns.

Shoot all law breakers. Speeders, prostitutes, people that tear the tags off mattresses...

 d-usa wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Was there a shoutout here that I missed?

Was there a threat to the Good Samaritans life that I missed before he drew his gun?

So you should just say feth off to the other people? Just mind your own business?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Robberies escalating into homicides is actually not as common as you think.

Seeing as I gave no statistical breakdown I'm curious as to how you arrived at your statement. But just out of curiosity I thought I would look at Google. All from the first page, and all within less than three months. The other results being a few Police Department links, and one about the MA kid who murdered and raped his teacher (robbery because he took her underwear).

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/2_men_face_murder_and_robbery.html
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Three-Arrested-for-Oxon-Hill-Hotel-Homicide-229527501.html
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/23504061/new-details-in-ft-myers-apartment-complex-murder#.Up9NTMRDunw
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/alleged-accomplices-charged-with-murder-in-failed-robbery-in-forest/article_4399593d-2b16-56c8-80cb-c2fe37b67b32.html
http://homicides.suntimes.com/2013/11/15/teen-held-on-1m-bond-for-killing-michael-sullivan-53-during-attempted-robbery/
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/11/medical_marijuana_robbery_two.html


Still, if people are happy to walk away and leave others to their fate I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience.

I like how your articles don't actually present the same situation as the one in the OP.

Article #1: A robbery committed in a public place is a bit different than that which occurs in a storefront setting. I'm not seeing any motive or other details on the case itself in that article so it's a bit hard to really comment.
Article #2: The homicide occurred when the restaurant manager not only confronted the suspect, but when they chased the fleeing suspect. A lot of establishments/businesses actually tell their employees not to do that and to call the police.
Article #3: Again, this is a different style of robbery. You have what amounts to a "honeypot" where a woman lures a mark to a hotel with promises of sex. The woman will then have her accomplices waiting either inside of the hotel room or outside of it to enter when she signals and then strongarm the victim. The goal in a robbery like this is to not just essentially have a robbery but have a form of blackmail against the victim, who usually is targeted because of the fact that they are married.
Article #4: This is actually an interesting one to read. I can't make any real commentary as it would be a "what if" scenario. Three guys tried to rob an off-duty Sheriff's Deputy who was jogging with another individual and got shot in the process. The second degree murder charge seems a bit much given that the deputy and his friend were unharmed, but it might have something to do with intent and the fact that there was a weapon used in the attempted robbery.
Article #5: Similar to article #1, you have a robbery/homicide in a public place where a victim seemingly refuses to surrender anything and what amounts to a "frustrated" robber then deciding to commit murder. That kind of thing is not necessarily the rule of thumb when dealing with robberies.
Article #6: Hard to really comment on given the poor writing in the article. From what it sounds like, homicide was unintentional and the two who committed it attempted to resuscitate the victim.

Your unlinked story about the MA kid who murdered and raped his teacher is also a poor example of a robbery because it was apparently, y'know...a rape/homicide.

Generally when you see a robbery of a commercial location where there are multiple people present, you will not see deaths unless there is some unpredictable element about the robber. Things like past convictions, drug abuse, or affiliations to gang members all immediately spring to mind as some of those elements.

This is blocked. is there a text or summary of it?

On the CHL front, the wife was taught generally not to interfere but to be a good witness as there are a variety of factors in play.

 cincydooley wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Was there a shoutout here that I missed?

Was there a threat to the Good Samaritans life that I missed before he drew his gun?

So you should just say feth off to the other people? Just mind your own business?

Like I said, I carry to protect myself and mine. Not to be the police for other people. Especially if it is a simple robbery. There is a reason why stores have a policy not to confront the bad guy and to comply, because 99.9% of robberies end without anybody getting shot.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that.

I do. Maybe it's different for people that are trained to actively shoot it out with a bad guy.

oddly enough we had a similar situation in my area recently with more WTF relatives

http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-regional-berks/multiple-people-shot-at-restaurant-in-reading/-/121418/22796354/-/ca2x29/-/index.html

http://m.wfmz.com/families-want-justice-for-suspects-killed-after-robbery-of-kricks-korner-store-in-reading/-/15946050/22819374/-/vosp0z/-/index.html

i'm sorry but holding up a store and aiming to shoot someone completely negates the whole "good kid" story. You are just mad he got shot before he could shoot someone else.

 Frazzled wrote:
This is blocked. is there a text or summary of it?

On the CHL front, the wife was taught generally not to interfere but to be a good witness as there are a variety of factors in play.

That is indeed what most classes teach, and it represents probably at least a strong plurality, if not the majority, of concealed carry holders' opinions on the matter.

I think it's situational, though. While I can buy into the sentiment that if you're too naive to protect yourself, it's not my job as Joe Citizen to do it for you, I also don't think it's morally acceptable to stand by if you were at, say, Newtown when that went down.

 kronk wrote:
We should all take this man's lead and clean up our towns.

Shoot all law breakers. Speeders, prostitutes, people that tear the tags off mattresses...

Whoah, let's not be too hasty Kronk. Prostitutes provide a wide range of services that keep the local economy running. What we need to do is get rid of the middleman, i.e. the pimp.

 d-usa wrote:
Robberies in 2012: 354,522
3 month average (to match your google search): 88,630
Your average robbery-escalation-to-murder rate:0.006769678%

Still, if people are happy to start a shootout and put others at risk I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience...

And people wonder why people say "lie, lies, and damned statistics" You methodology (comparing a small sample with a deliberately larger comparitor) is flawed to say the least. But then again you think that anyone wanting to use a gun for good should be a cop. Maybe after my trip to the gym last night I should become an athlete. I did make my own coffee too, so an athlete barista. Hmmm, I also drove my wife to work; so athlete, barista, chauffeur for my career path then

I missed the news about the shoot out. Could you please point it out for me?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 kronk wrote:
We should all take this man's lead and clean up our towns.

Shoot all law breakers. Speeders, prostitutes, people that tear the tags off mattresses...

Whoah, let's not be too hasty Kronk. Prostitutes provide a wide range of services that keep the local economy running. What we need to do is get rid of the middleman, i.e. the pimp.

FINE! *scratches off items 7 - 14 from To-Do list*

in the articles i linked the citizen used deadly force and it was deemed to be lawfully used.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I like how your articles don't actually present the same situation as the one in the OP.

Article #1: A robbery committed in a public place is a bit different than that which occurs in a storefront setting. I'm not seeing any motive or other details on the case itself in that article so it's a bit hard to really comment.
Article #2: The homicide occurred when the restaurant manager not only confronted the suspect, but when they chased the fleeing suspect. A lot of establishments/businesses actually tell their employees not to do that and to call the police.
Article #3: Again, this is a different style of robbery. You have what amounts to a "honeypot" where a woman lures a mark to a hotel with promises of sex. The woman will then have her accomplices waiting either inside of the hotel room or outside of it to enter when she signals and then strongarm the victim. The goal in a robbery like this is to not just essentially have a robbery but have a form of blackmail against the victim, who usually is targeted because of the fact that they are married.
Article #4: This is actually an interesting one to read. I can't make any real commentary as it would be a "what if" scenario. Three guys tried to rob an off-duty Sheriff's Deputy who was jogging with another individual and got shot in the process. The second degree murder charge seems a bit much given that the deputy and his friend were unharmed, but it might have something to do with intent and the fact that there was a weapon used in the attempted robbery.
Article #5: Similar to article #1, you have a robbery/homicide in a public place where a victim seemingly refuses to surrender anything and what amounts to a "frustrated" robber then deciding to commit murder. That kind of thing is not necessarily the rule of thumb when dealing with robberies.
Article #6: Hard to really comment on given the poor writing in the article. From what it sounds like, homicide was unintentional and the two who committed it attempted to resuscitate the victim.

Your unlinked story about the MA kid who murdered and raped his teacher is also a poor example of a robbery because it was apparently, y'know...a rape/homicide.

Generally when you see a robbery of a commercial location where there are multiple people present, you will not see deaths unless there is some unpredictable element about the robber. Things like past convictions, drug abuse, or affiliations to gang members all immediately spring to mind as some of those elements.

Which is why it was unlinked, and it was solely mentioned in the interests of disclosure. But please feel free to keep missing the point

So those examples are robberies that escalated into homicides, just like I stated they were. Glad to know that we're on the same page with that.

And the individual who intervened (or the employees) would have prior knowledge of convictions, drug abuse, gang affiliations, substance abuse, and/or mental state. Maybe they should have given the suspect a questionnaire to fill out asking those questions first

 Seaward wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
This is blocked. is there a text or summary of it?

On the CHL front, the wife was taught generally not to interfere but to be a good witness as there are a variety of factors in play.

That is indeed what most classes teach, and it represents probably at least a strong plurality, if not the majority, of concealed carry holders' opinions on the matter.

I think it's situational, though. While I can buy into the sentiment that if you're too naive to protect yourself, it's not my job as Joe Citizen to do it for you, I also don't think it's morally acceptable to stand by if you were at, say, Newtown when that went down.

But that is an entirely different situation to the robbery of a store, would you not agree?

Stores generally have insurance in place to cover losses incurred by robberies--provided the police sign off that it was actually a robbery and not just staff members stealing or other "cost of operating" losses.

I won't say that I'm sad to see that this individual got shot committing a crime, but I think holding it up as what all concealed carry holders should do in a situation is a bit naive.

 Seaward wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
This is blocked. is there a text or summary of it?

On the CHL front, the wife was taught generally not to interfere but to be a good witness as there are a variety of factors in play.

That is indeed what most classes teach, and it represents probably at least a strong plurality, if not the majority, of concealed carry holders' opinions on the matter.

I think it's situational, though. While I can buy into the sentiment that if you're too naive to protect yourself, it's not my job as Joe Citizen to do it for you, I also don't think it's morally acceptable to stand by if you were at, say, Newtown when that went down.

1. Again I need a summary of the incident.
2. For mass shootings much of the advice boils down to: Get the out or hide and barricade. If you have a good shot take it but don't go looking for it.
3. As someone noted it is very situational. If its a store robbery: where are you? Is there a way out? How many BGs are there? How do you know there are only X BGs there? Lots of variables and I am not saying what you should or shouldn't do.
but yes robbing a store like a 7/11 lots of chances the robbie will be shot. A store owner I used to frequent in Cali was killed in a robbery like that.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Robberies in 2012: 354,522
3 month average (to match your google search): 88,630
Your average robbery-escalation-to-murder rate:0.006769678%

Still, if people are happy to start a shootout and put others at risk I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience...

And people wonder why people say "lie, lies, and damned statistics" You methodology (comparing a small sample with a deliberately larger comparitor) is flawed to say the least.

You are the one that said robberies-turned-homicides are common, then you provided 6 stories over a 3 month period to back up your point. If that is all you can find with the number of actual robberies in the US over a 3 month period then you don't really have any sort of point. If even 1% of robberies turn into homicides then we should have 295 stories every single month where a simple robbery became a homicide. If you can find those stories to backup your point then more power do you.

But then again you think that anyone wanting to use a gun for good should be a cop. Maybe after my trip to the gym last night I should become an athlete. I did make my own coffee too, so an athlete barista. Hmmm, I also drove my wife to work; so athlete, barista, chauffeur for my career path then

If you want to compete against other people and beat them, then maybe you should become an athlete.
If you want to make coffee for other people, then maybe you should become a barista.
If you want to drive other people to work, then maybe you should become a chauffeur.
If you want to shoot bad guys for a living that rob a place and have done nothing to pose an actual threat to you, then maybe you should become a cop.

I missed the news about the shoot out. Could you please point it out for me?

I missed the news about the robber confronting and threatening the good samaritan before the good samaritan decided to become involved and put his own safety at risk. Could you please point it out for me?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:


Which is why it was unlinked, and it was solely mentioned in the interests of disclosure. But please feel free to keep missing the point

So those examples are robberies that escalated into homicides, just like I stated they were. Glad to know that we're on the same page with that.

And the individual who intervened (or the employees) would have prior knowledge of convictions, drug abuse, gang affiliations, substance abuse, and/or mental state. Maybe they should have given the suspect a questionnaire to fill out asking those questions first

I think you were the one who missed the point, DC.

You cannot just throw a slew of links out there as examples of "robberies escalating into homicides" without actually looking at the context. The majority of the robberies that you linked were not the same situation as a shop/commercial establishment being robbed. The only one which was remotely close was the hotel restaurant robbery, where it actually seems that the homicide occurred only after the employee tried to chase down the suspects.

I truly thought that most homicides were Robbery related...

But, honestly... I'm having a difficulties navigating the FBI statistics site...

I think instead of pulling his gun he should have pulled his cell phone and called the police... if his first reaction was to pull his gun out and ask questions later... he'll be more trouble then good.

I'd imagine that he does a fair amount of gun range shooting but what if he would have hit one of the employees with his FIVE round burst? I'd imagine that this was one bad shot away from a tragedy.

Then again, all we have is the news article to go by and the interview... but it was still a VERY risky move.

 whembly wrote:
I truly thought that most homicides were Robbery related...

Well, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that every single homicide was robbery related.

So according to the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

In 2010 we had 14,748 murders and non-negligent homicides.
In 2010 we had 367,832 robberies.

So if every single murder started out as a robbery we end up with 4% or robberies turning into murder. 4% IF every single homicide that year started out as a robbery.

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I truly thought that most homicides were Robbery related...

Well, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that every single homicide was robbery related.

So according to the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

In 2010 we had 14,748 murders and non-negligent homicides.
In 2010 we had 367,832 robberies.

So if every single murder started out as a robbery we end up with 4% or robberies turning into murder. 4% IF every single homicide that year started out as a robbery.

Yeah I get that...

Don't mind me, I just thought I read somewhere that there was a significant connection between homicides and robberies. But, I was looking at it the wrong way....

 whembly wrote:

Yeah I get that...

Don't mind me, I just thought I read somewhere that there was a significant connection between homicides and robberies. But, I was looking at it the wrong way....

It is a kinda/sorta thing. It depends on the circumstances of the robbery and a slew of factors regarding the victim/offender. Things like relationships between the victim and offender, value of items stolen, cooperativeness of the victim, where the robbery occurs, etc etc.

 d-usa wrote:
You are the one that said robberies-turned-homicides are common, then you provided 6 stories over a 3 month period to back up your point. If that is all you can find with the number of actual robberies in the US over a 3 month period then you don't really have any sort of point. If even 1% of robberies turn into homicides then we should have 295 stories every single month where a simple robbery became a homicide. If you can find those stories to backup your point then more power do you.

What I in fact said was;

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Who said anything about protecting the money? Robberies like these have escalated into homicides, even when the employees have been compliant. It is true that he had absolutely no obligation to intervene, but I'm glad that he did. So are the employees that were being held at gun point.

At your convenience I'll let you point out where exactly I said that it was "common". What I did do was back up my statement that these robberies can escalate into homicides.

 d-usa wrote:
If you want to compete against other people and beat them, then maybe you should become an athlete.
If you want to make coffee for other people, then maybe you should become a barista.
If you want to drive other people to work, then maybe you should become a chauffeur.
If you want to shoot bad guys for a living that rob a place and have done nothing to pose an actual threat to you, then maybe you should become a cop.

Who said that the Samaritan wanted to shoot "bad guys for a living", except you?

 d-usa wrote:
I missed the news about the robber confronting and threatening the good samaritan before the good samaritan decided to become involved and put his own safety at risk. Could you please point it out for me?

I missed the point where I claimed that the Samaritan was threatened before he became involved.

You seem to be making a habit of attributing arguments to me which I have not made. If you want to strawman please do so, I'll know not to respond so you can continue to make up your own arguments to counter.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You cannot just throw a slew of links out there as examples of "robberies escalating into homicides" without actually looking at the context. The majority of the robberies that you linked were not the same situation as a shop/commercial establishment being robbed. The only one which was remotely close was the hotel restaurant robbery, where it actually seems that the homicide occurred only after the employee tried to chase down the suspects.

And yet those links were actually of robberies that escalated into homicides, just like I had mentioned. Just because you want to shift the goalposts from "robbery becoming homicide" to "robbery of a retail establishment becoming a homicide" does not mean that those robberies did not become homicides.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You cannot just throw a slew of links out there as examples of "robberies escalating into homicides" without actually looking at the context. The majority of the robberies that you linked were not the same situation as a shop/commercial establishment being robbed. The only one which was remotely close was the hotel restaurant robbery, where it actually seems that the homicide occurred only after the employee tried to chase down the suspects.

And yet those links were actually of robberies that escalated into homicides, just like I had mentioned. Just because you want to shift the goalposts from "robbery becoming homicide" to "robbery of a retail establishment becoming a homicide" does not mean that those robberies did not become homicides.

YOU are the one who made the statement of "robberies like these have escalated into homicides".
YOU are the one who then provided six links, of which only ONE(the robbery of a hotel restaurant) actually is remotely comparable to the circumstances of the case which occurred in the OP.

The case in the OP is about "robbery of a retail establishment". It's not about "robbery in the middle of a street", "robbery of a man lured to a hotel room with promises of sex", "robbery on a jogging path", or the "robbery of a home".

So don't try and play this as me shifting the goalposts, Dreadclaw.

 Kanluwen wrote:
YOU are the one who made the statement of "robberies like these have escalated into homicides".
YOU are the one who then provided six links, of which only ONE(the robbery of a hotel restaurant) actually is remotely comparable to the circumstances of the case which occurred in the OP.

The case in the OP is about "robbery of a retail establishment". It's not about "robbery in the middle of a street", "robbery of a man lured to a hotel room with promises of sex", "robbery on a jogging path", or the "robbery of a home".

So don't try and play this as me shifting the goalposts, Dreadclaw.

Robberies like these meaning ones where a firearm was used? Or where a weapon was used? Or robberies like these meaning retail establishments? Or was the fact that I later clarified that I was not limiting myself to retail premises not sufficiently clear for YOU

I am responsible for what I say. Not what YOU think I say. Ok? r

Ah, so glad to be out of Mobile, Alabama.

 d-usa wrote:
Still, if people are happy to start a shootout and put others at risk I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience...

Aren't they already at risk?

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Still, if people are happy to start a shootout and put others at risk I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience...

Aren't they already at risk?

Are you more at risk being a customer in a store that is being robber, where the robber is interacting with the clerk and you are on the ground in an aisle away from the action, or pulling a gun and drawing on the robber and escalating the situation without knowing if there are other robbers in the store?

 Corpsesarefun wrote:
Has the meaning of the phrase "good Samaritan" changed recently?

so when an enraged, multiple felon, has a gun pointed at your head, and those of your co workers (which is what the situation was when this good smaritan walked in) and someone saves you from this felon,

that person is not a good samaritan?

so he has to wait till AFTER you are shot/robbed lying dead/bloody on the side of the road before he can help you and be a good samaritan?

I know the parable of the good samaritan literally does have him only help the traveller after he is beaten... but the pricipal extends to preventing that man from being beaten/robbed/killed in the first place as well... not just helping pick up the broken peices.

Why is it that when a CCW holder prevents a potential mass murder (more then 3 people were under the gun in this scenerio, so all could have been shot and killed had this man not intervened) its downplayed so very much by anti gunners and certain media outlets I wonder...


cant have all the examples of how guns save lifes matter now can we...