Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/12/04 17:58:19
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
d-usa wrote: Still, if people are happy to start a shootout and put others at risk I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience...
Aren't they already at risk?
Are you more at risk being a customer in a store that is being robber, where the robber is interacting with the clerk and you are on the ground in an aisle away from the action, or pulling a gun and drawing on the robber and escalating the situation without knowing if there are other robbers in the store?
With that logic why even carry a gun? You're at less of a risk if you just comply with a mugger than pulling out your firearm and escalating a situation without knowing if there are other muggers around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/04 17:59:52
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2013/12/04 18:00:38
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I guess I am just wired differently than most. I see this and see a guy who saw innocent people put on their knees and a gun held to their heads. The guy pulled his legally carried gun out and tried to stop the perp from what ever the perp was going to do next. Perp turned towards him and got shot before the perp could fire.
I strongly believe one should do his best to help others in need. Whether it is stopping at an accident and applying first aid before an ambulance gets there, or stopping a rape/mugging/robbery/beating before a cop gets there. Just pass on by or passively watch or call for help an wait just isn't in me.
In this particular case, the shooter sees a gun pointed at the shop employees, who have been forced to their knees. He has no idea of the real intent of the perp, whether the perp will shoot or beat the employees. He just knows they are on their knees and being held at gunpoint. He knows he has a weapon which will likely enable him to stop the perp from injuring innocents. And he was right. No innocents were hurt.
The guy did not want to 'shoot bad guys for a living'. Any argument to the contrary is just stupid. Saying he should have been a cop to do so adds to the stupidity of the argument. He had two choices, do nothing or do something. He chose to do something. Something legal. Something that worked.
'He could have shot the employees with a bad shot and therefore should have done nothing' is speculative at best, and the actual end result was different, no employees hurt.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2013/12/04 18:16:15
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I wonder if he would have been at less risk had he assisted the robbers.
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2013/12/04 18:16:47
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
d-usa wrote: Still, if people are happy to start a shootout and put others at risk I guess that is a matter between them and their conscience...
Aren't they already at risk?
Are you more at risk being a customer in a store that is being robber, where the robber is interacting with the clerk and you are on the ground in an aisle away from the action, or pulling a gun and drawing on the robber and escalating the situation without knowing if there are other robbers in the store?
With that logic why even carry a gun?
Like I said in my first response. It is to protect me, myself, and mine. It's not to protect you, or the house down the street, or a clerk, or a business. The risk is quite a bit different when I am the one being mugged compared to simply being in a store that is being robbed.
Even if I am the one being mugged drawing the gun isn't always the best option. If the guy got the drop on me and is standing in front of you with the gun out and his finger on the trigger I would consider that my change of pulling on him and neutralizing him is not exactly that great. Legally carrying a gun is one thing, legally defending yourself is one thing, knowing when you should use it or not use it is another.
You're at less of a risk if you just comply with a mugger than pulling out your firearm and escalating a situation without knowing if there are other muggers around.
Sometimes, yes. Even with carrying I often have a cheap wallet with a couple old credit cards and some cash in it. Sometimes it would be better to hand that over than it would be to try to defend yourself.
Situational awareness also helps. If you are walking through a deserted parking lot and you notice that there are three people slowly surrounding you and you can see tells that they are armed, then it might be better to try to get away from that situation (by finding another group of people, leaving the area, entering an occupied area, etc..). If you know these people are there, because you paid attention to your surroundings, then you might determine that compliance carries the least risk. If you have been paying attention and are pretty certain that the guy is alone, then your risk assessment might be different.
And again, it is a completely different story when I am forced to defend myself vs trying to defend somebody else.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CptJake wrote: I guess I am just wired differently than most. I see this and see a guy who saw innocent people put on their knees and a gun held to their heads. The guy pulled his legally carried gun out and tried to stop the perp from what ever the perp was going to do next. Perp turned towards him and got shot before the perp could fire.
I strongly believe one should do his best to help others in need. Whether it is stopping at an accident and applying first aid before an ambulance gets there, or stopping a rape/mugging/robbery/beating before a cop gets there. Just pass on by or passively watch or call for help an wait just isn't in me.
What is your background? That would probably influence how you approach something.
I routinely apply first aid, stop at accidents, and do other stuff that is usually covered by Good Samaritan statues. My background is in EMS and Fire Rescue, and one of the things that is drilled into us is scene safety. If the scene is not safe for us, then we can't help. Becoming another victim doesn't help the first one.
In this particular case, the shooter sees a gun pointed at the shop employees, who have been forced to their knees. He has no idea of the real intent of the perp, whether the perp will shoot or beat the employees. He just knows they are on their knees and being held at gunpoint. He knows he has a weapon which will likely enable him to stop the perp from injuring innocents. And he was right. No innocents were hurt.
Statistically speaking, the likelihood of nothing happening is far greater than anybody getting hurt. He got lucky.
The guy did not want to 'shoot bad guys for a living'. Any argument to the contrary is just stupid. Saying he should have been a cop to do so adds to the stupidity of the argument.
And saying that you should live with your conciense if you choose not to fire your gun at somebody after escalating a situation that most likely wouldn't have resulted in violence is stupid as well.
He had two choices, do nothing or do something.
He mad lots more than two. He could have called 911, he could have drawn and be ready to defend himself in case the robber comes towards him, take pictures of the situation, record it, memorize what is happening to be a good witness.
He chose to do something. Something legal. Something that worked.
It was legal, he got lucky that it worked, it was stupid IMO.
'He could have shot the employees with a bad shot and therefore should have done nothing' is speculative at best,
You know what else is speculative at best?
He has no idea of the real intent of the perp, whether the perp will shoot or beat the employees.
Same as the whole "robberies result in homicides" thing.
and the actual end result was different, no employees hurt.
And if the bad guy got his money and ran away, then no employees would have been hurt either. Which is the reason why almost every store has a policy to comply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/04 18:25:35
2013/12/04 18:33:27
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
That kid is worthless anyway. I don't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks. My background and training would have me stopping him too. If someone I know is getting attacked I hope its not one of you (softer) types in the area.
2013/12/04 18:41:33
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
In 2010 we had 14,748 murders and non-negligent homicides.
In 2010 we had 367,832 robberies.
So if every single murder started out as a robbery we end up with 4% or robberies turning into murder. 4% IF every single homicide that year started out as a robbery.
Theres a logical fallacy in your argument here... Contrary to popular belief, despite what Hollywood might have lead you to believe, shooting someone DOESN'T automatically kill them, a death would have to be involved in order for the crime to thus be labeled a "homicide". In other words, your "scientific"/"statistical" analysis of the situation is wrong.
I will say that New Jersey actually has a serious issue with this sort of escalation... well... killings in general really, specifically in Newark and Camden, where homicide has become a thing to do when you're bored.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2013/12/04 19:31:31
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
And if the bad guy got his money and ran away, then no employees would have been hurt either. Which is the reason why almost every store has a policy to comply.
and if he had shot the people he had his gun pointed at while they were on their knees, they would be dead...
every store has a comply policy, yet not everyone who complies lives.
you seem very willing to bet the lives of three people on this felon executing a rational, non violent, ending to this scenario, despite him acting in an irrational and violent way.
had he shot all these people, would be droning on and on about how guns are bad and should be banned because they never save anyone and just do nothing but KILL KILL KILL. that the perp having a gun made it inevitablet that he would kill, because guns are bad, and people who have them want to kill. Because guns are bad.
yet....
every time someone saves people with the aid of gun, your crowd complains that they never saved anyone at all.
fact is, this good samaritan saved multiple people, and no one died, even the perp, despite being shot 5 times.
only difference between what happened, and what you say should have happened, is that in one scneario, the perp gets away, with stolen money, and is FREE TO ENDAGER MORE LIVES. robbing and pointing guns at people untill he does shoot someone..
or do you not care about what happens afterwards?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/04 19:32:31
2013/12/04 19:39:28
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
The Samaritan didn't "save" anybody, since there is zero evidence that anybody would have been hurt if he didn't intervene.
The rest of the "your crowd complains when bad guys get dropped with guns" post is wasted on me, since I already mentioned that I carry myself. I have zero problems defending myself and mine, and will waste a fool that threatens my family.
I just disagree that's carrying a gun makes it a smart thing to try and defend others. It's for my protection, not yours.
2013/12/04 19:48:51
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I just disagree that's carrying a gun makes it a smart thing to try and defend others. It's for my protection, not yours.
well the pricipal that you dont have to stick your neck out for others, and that you dont HAVE to help if you are in a similar situation, is... ok to me, not what I would do, but hey, different strokes.
but that's what a good samaritain is... someone who sticks his neck out for a stranger... maybe some draw the line at risking a hurt back pushing people out of the snow, some draw it at risking being shot.
what I took from it, was that you were claiming this man was:
A. not a good samaritan (he is... sticking your neck out for people is basically the definition of good samaritain)
B. didnt help anyone ( he did... these people had a gun to their head, they could very well have been killed, even if he didnt save them, he could have saved the next people who would have been robbed and or shot, or the next, and so on)
how can we prove anyone can save anyone from being shot then? if the only "proof" they were going to be shot, is a bullet riddled corpse? sorry for thinking you are anti gun for that, but its the same trope I keep hearing from that crowd.
if you, or I, was the one with the gun pointed at our head, would we want someone to help us?
I know I would want help.
2013/12/04 19:57:48
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
How about we both back off a little. D-USA is espousing the actual recommended course by many instructors. Others would take a shot as it meets criteria if the conditions were right. Its an issue of great debate on firearms sites and can be highly fact pattern specific.
He has no duty to do anything. he might do something if conditions were right. None of us were there so don't know what we would do.
OK thats not correct. I am certain I would follow whatever course resulted in the highest chance that the wife would make me a dozen double chocolate coated cake balls...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/04 19:58:09
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/12/04 20:00:05
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
chocolate or strawberry cake
mix in frosting to make a cake frosting goo. form into balls.
pour melted Hershey bars on them. Maybe some more frosting, then pour another layer of melted Hershey on them.
sprinkle a little extra tidbits if desired.
Watch Frazzled flip cars to get one, and time the call to the ambulance due to sugar shock.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/12/04 20:05:20
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
kronk wrote: We should all take this man's lead and clean up our towns.
Shoot all law breakers. Speeders, prostitutes, people that tear the tags off mattresses...
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2013/12/04 22:58:52
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I just disagree that's carrying a gun makes it a smart thing to try and defend others. It's for my protection, not yours.
While in general I agree with this line of thinking it can become morally objectionable NOT to intervene, even if still legally risky, depending on circumstances. I'd say that if guy A has a person on his knees with a gun to his head, particularly after having led the worker from point A to someplace else (a less visible spot, i presume) it will not be to dispense a soothing shoulder massage and a freakin cookie.
Good shoot as far as I am concerned.
2013/12/05 02:47:22
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
CptJake wrote:I guess I am just wired differently than most. I see this and see a guy who saw innocent people put on their knees and a gun held to their heads. The guy pulled his legally carried gun out and tried to stop the perp from what ever the perp was going to do next. Perp turned towards him and got shot before the perp could fire.
I strongly believe one should do his best to help others in need. Whether it is stopping at an accident and applying first aid before an ambulance gets there, or stopping a rape/mugging/robbery/beating before a cop gets there. Just pass on by or passively watch or call for help an wait just isn't in me.
In this particular case, the shooter sees a gun pointed at the shop employees, who have been forced to their knees. He has no idea of the real intent of the perp, whether the perp will shoot or beat the employees. He just knows they are on their knees and being held at gunpoint. He knows he has a weapon which will likely enable him to stop the perp from injuring innocents. And he was right. No innocents were hurt.
The guy did not want to 'shoot bad guys for a living'. Any argument to the contrary is just stupid. Saying he should have been a cop to do so adds to the stupidity of the argument. He had two choices, do nothing or do something. He chose to do something. Something legal. Something that worked.
'He could have shot the employees with a bad shot and therefore should have done nothing' is speculative at best, and the actual end result was different, no employees hurt.
I think I actually agree with CptJake just about 100% here, which is probably a first.
2013/12/05 02:52:11
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I just disagree that's carrying a gun makes it a smart thing to try and defend others. It's for my protection, not yours.
While in general I agree with this line of thinking it can become morally objectionable NOT to intervene, even if still legally risky, depending on circumstances. I'd say that if guy A has a person on his knees with a gun to his head, particularly after having led the worker from point A to someplace else (a less visible spot, i presume) it will not be to dispense a soothing shoulder massage and a freakin cookie.
Per the interview with the concerned citizen, the robber led one employee from point A to a safe/cash register. It's a bit shaky as the CC states that he saw the robber walk the employee from being grouped with the other employees and then goes to immediately saying that he saw the employee on his knees with a gun to his head.
Not saying that the CC went and just decided to hare in there, but the MO for some robberies like this where the robbers do not generally commit homicides is to do something similar. After they single an employee out and get what they want, they threaten the employee to the point of terror and then the robber makes their escape.
One thing that makes me, from an investigative viewpoint, think that it was not a case where the employees were in immediate danger?
The CC claims that the suspect was wearing a mask and gloves, along with a jacket. It suggests that the suspect was trying to avoid being recognizable by having layers of clothing that are easily disposed of/dumped, which is a bit more common in robberies where the robber does not also engage in homicides.
Please bear in mind that this speculation is just that: speculation. I do not have all the facts of the case nor a comprehensive profile of this particular robbery suspect to go off of. I am going off of what are effectively "general profiles" that I have encountered in the course of having to look at crimes and the behavior associated with particular types of criminals
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/05 02:54:53
2013/12/05 03:17:22
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
One thing that makes me, from an investigative viewpoint, think that it was not a case where the employees were in immediate danger?
really... you dont consider felon with a gun pointed at them as "immediate danger"?
seriously?
these guys never "plan" on killing anyone, but they do, and Ill bet mr perp wasn't exactly keeping his finger off the trigger.
Even if he doesnt kill them, all he has to do is injure these people, or traumatize them enough and they are scarred for life.
even if the perp did get away with no CC hero to swoop in and stop him, what about NEXT time, and the next time, you really think this guy waving guns around will never result in someone innocent being hurt?
2013/12/05 10:43:25
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
Kanluwen wrote: The CC claims that the suspect was wearing a mask and gloves, along with a jacket. It suggests that the suspect was trying to avoid being recognizable by having layers of clothing that are easily disposed of/dumped, which is a bit more common in robberies where the robber does not also engage in homicides.
Please bear in mind that this speculation is just that: speculation. I do not have all the facts of the case nor a comprehensive profile of this particular robbery suspect to go off of. I am going off of what are effectively "general profiles" that I have encountered in the course of having to look at crimes and the behavior associated with particular types of criminals
And how many people who kill others and plan on getting away with it wear no disguise? The mask, gloves, and jacket pretty much describes the uniform of every terrorist in the Troubles - especially when they were planting bombs and shooting people. Wearing something to conceal your identity during the commission of a crime with a weapon doesn't mean you aren't going to kill someone. It just means that you want to make it more difficult to ID you later.
2013/12/05 12:01:22
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I just disagree that's carrying a gun makes it a smart thing to try and defend others. It's for my protection, not yours.
While in general I agree with this line of thinking it can become morally objectionable NOT to intervene, even if still legally risky, depending on circumstances. I'd say that if guy A has a person on his knees with a gun to his head, particularly after having led the worker from point A to someplace else (a less visible spot, i presume) it will not be to dispense a soothing shoulder massage and a freakin cookie.
Good shoot as far as I am concerned.
Morally objectionable? No way. You have no duty. Being a good witness is enough.
If someone WASN'T armed would he have a moral duty? Hardly.
One thing that makes me, from an investigative viewpoint, think that it was not a case where the employees were in immediate danger?
really... you dont consider felon with a gun pointed at them as "immediate danger"?
seriously?
these guys never "plan" on killing anyone, but they do, and Ill bet mr perp wasn't exactly keeping his finger off the trigger.
Even if he doesnt kill them, all he has to do is injure these people, or traumatize them enough and they are scarred for life.
even if the perp did get away with no CC hero to swoop in and stop him, what about NEXT time, and the next time, you really think this guy waving guns around will never result in someone innocent being hurt?
Easy sauce is correct. When you have customers in an execution position, odds are not low that that is what is going to happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/05 12:11:52
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/12/05 13:50:06
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
I'm with CptJake... As a military man, my brain is wired slightly differently to other people.
That being said, if I were in that situation, and I didn't feel that I had a 110% clear shot at resolving the situation, I wouldn't take that shot.
The thing about this whole situation that is actually quite hilarious is the "victim's" family... he was a good kid in the wrong crowd? you are absolutely flying rodent gak crazy if you believe that. There's evidence that it was not his first robbery, AND the previous robbery was more peaceful than that Dollar Store... AND, who the feth robs a Dollar Store!? Seriously!? I mean, was he just getting some practice in...some good "reps" like a guy at the gym doing bench? Before he moves up in the world and tries a bank? Feth me, but I think that whole family should be looked at for mental health issues if they honestly believe that.
I also wonder about the caliber of the CCW carriers pistol... to hit a bad guy 5 times and NOT kill him?? I hope he had a .22 or something small like that... I mean, only way I can see a .40 or .45 doing that is if you winged the guy 5 times.
2013/12/05 14:15:21
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
Without judging who's right and wrong, I have to say that it's rather interesting to see posters who are usually in favour of small government and "mind yourself" policies argue in favour of outside intervention, while posters who are usually in favour of (relatively) more government involvement and social safety nets are arguing that one should mind oneself. Did someone play a reverse direction UNO card or something?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/12/05 14:16:15
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's clear it was a 9mm Parabellum. So more or less a mouse fart compared to a proper caliber like .45 ACP or .357 Magnum
Stand in front of one and say that.
I have a wall of 9mms, .45ACP and .44 special/Mag. I like the .45ACP but I can put 4 rounds into you at 7 yards with a 9mm with a carry pistol. try that with a .45ACP.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/12/05 15:00:59
Subject: Re:Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Without judging who's right and wrong, I have to say that it's rather interesting to see posters who are usually in favour of small government and "mind yourself" policies argue in favour of outside intervention, while posters who are usually in favour of (relatively) more government involvement and social safety nets are arguing that one should mind oneself. Did someone play a reverse direction UNO card or something?
Wanting small government does not translate to 'mind yourself'. It translates to 'don't rely on the gov't to do things you can and should do for yourself and others'. In this case, rather than rely on the police who were not present, the shooter found himself in the position where he could act and believed it to be the correct thing to do. That isn't 'outside intervention', that was a guy on the scene not waiting for 'outside intervention'.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2013/12/05 15:08:25
Subject: Good samaritan stops armed gunman, gunmans parents have interesting things to say about this.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's clear it was a 9mm Parabellum. So more or less a mouse fart compared to a proper caliber like .45 ACP or .357 Magnum
Stand in front of one and say that.
I have a wall of 9mms, .45ACP and .44 special/Mag. I like the .45ACP but I can put 4 rounds into you at 7 yards with a 9mm with a carry pistol. try that with a .45ACP.
4 rounds at 7 yards with a .45? Man sized target? Frazz maybe you're going blind in your old age but that's not exactly difficult. If you can't dump a magazine into a man sized target at 10 yards with your sidearm... I worry for you.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's clear it was a 9mm Parabellum. So more or less a mouse fart compared to a proper caliber like .45 ACP or .357 Magnum
Stand in front of one and say that.
I have a wall of 9mms, .45ACP and .44 special/Mag. I like the .45ACP but I can put 4 rounds into you at 7 yards with a 9mm with a carry pistol. try that with a .45ACP.
4 rounds at 7 yards with a .45? Man sized target? Frazz maybe you're going blind in your old age but that's not exactly difficult. If you can't dump a magazine into a man sized target at 10 yards with your sidearm... I worry for you.
4 rounds in a 6in diameter plate size.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/05 15:33:25
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
