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So I've been using an Imperial Guard allied detachment with my Blood Angels to give them a little bit of much needed anti-air firepower, and to generally compensate for their suckyness.

Love the HQ command platoon, but I'm a little torn on the troop choice options.

I'm not going to commit the points or time / models to make a full infantry platoon, so that leaves penal legion and veteran squads.

I feel like penal legions have a hard time making their points back (8! points for a human with no special or heavy weapons :[ :[ :[).

I've used them once, had their rending knives get the last wound on a demon prince, then lost half of them killing a cultist squad that was half their points, in hand to hand, despite having aforementioned rending knives. They were baaaarely worth it and I sort of feel like I got lucky.

So that leaves the veteran squad.

Does anyone else on here use a veteran squad as their one mandatory troop choice?

I feel like it can put out a lot of firepower, and would do really well in a chimera with a missile launcher and 3 plasma guns, or on foot with either carapace armor or camo cloaks (the cloaks are kind of tempting considering I can use blood angel psychic powers to give them a 5+ cover save in the open which then becomes a 4+ cover save, making them very hard to kill for 10pts a model), and then foot slogging them up the field with three plasma guns and a serg with a plasma pistol and a power axe.

Anybody run anything like this with guard allies?

Vet Squad in a Chimera w/ 3 Plasma or 3 Melta

You bother with upgrading their armor at that point? Or do you just let the chimera do all the protecting and have them shoot from the fire points all game?

Is carapace armor with it just in case they have to pop out and also to protect against plasma overheats? (if you rapid fire three plasma guns you're going to get an overheat a turn)

Do you bother with a missile launcher or not so you can stay mobile?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

3 flamers, melta bombs, vendetta

Fly in late and blow something off an objective late game, or assault a MC.

I wouldn't put a heavy weapon in there with them. ML and Plasma don't synchronize well.

Yeah, penal legion are junk. They're one of my top picks for worst unit in the game (much less the codex) now that spawn have been fixed.

Anyways, vets are good, but they are, be warned, a strictly defensive weapon. Their strength is in their BS4 special weapons, which means that they're not going to do any damage if you try and charge them up the table to shoot something. Instead, they're a superb reaction weapon, especially in chimeras.

As such, the way to take them is with three good special weapons, usually plasma or melta, and if you want to give them a little offensive punch, a BS4 lascannon is rarely a bad idea. If you want to make them even more potent on the defense, you can give the sergeant a pair of plasma pistols.

You can also do a "harkerstar" where you give vets harker and camo cloaks, so they get a 2+ cover save basically anywhere, but they're not that useful given just how easy it is to ignore cover saves these days, and the fact that units that do little more than score are pretty useless.

So take a squad of vets with three melta or plasma in a chimera and treat them like a bodyguard unit. ~160 points of dudes that provide close-range cover for something bigger and more important.

I would say the loadout would depend on what role you want for them.
usually I take a squad with camo and a las cannon with harker leading them and pop them behind an adl. 2+ cover save without having to go to ground and the ability to fire the gun as well.
A nice center holder sponge unit. opponents will unload enough firepower to kill real star wars deathstar trying to kill it which means that even if they don't kill a single model they will have saved many times their points worth of other units in your army. But they usually kill their points worth at least anyway.

I've seen aquads with demos do well when popping out of transports.

Penal legion, I rarely use anymore (although I have had a squad swat a hive tyrant like a fly). If I do use them its just for giggles cause I wanna use my orange jumpsuit models.

A Veteran Squad with 3 plasma guns (and a plasma pistol on Sarge if you've points) with the carapace armor upgrade can be very useful in either a Chimera or Vendetta. The carapace helps with the inevitable Gets Hot roll and the exploding transport. This squad can harm most other units and can easily be concealed in most terrain for a cover save. The transport gives them mobility, a portable shield, and doesn't really affect their shooting ability all that much. Switch out the plasma for melta and now you've a very dangerous anti-tank/MC unit. Throw on the Demolitions upgrade to ensure anything that isn't shot to pieces is obliterated in assault.

Alternatively, I like running a Harker squad with camo cloaks, an autocannon, and snipers. Scout them in cover for a 2+ and blast away at anything in range. They are a very good anti-infantry unit and can threaten light vehicles too in a pinch. They usually attract a lot of attention which is just dandy since they typically weather any shooting storm. Mind those Deny Cover weapons though!

As for the penal legion, I want to love them, but as Ailaros said, they are sort of junk. All fluffiness aside, they can't really hold their own. Rending is nice, so is Assault 2, but that's at the whim of a random chart. Stubborn and Outflank are neat little rules. On a unit that will die instantly to a bolter round and can't purchase any upgrades. Best to put those points into another Veteran squad.

Strictly my opinion and experience mind you.

I have on at least a few occasions gotten linebreaker by outflanking them and the enemy deployment zone and just having them hang out and maybe take a few pot shots.

I usually go straight with 3 Plasma/Melta without Carapace in a Chimera. The guy who said to use flamers wastes their BS of 4 which is what makes them useful so I wouldn't do that. I can see the validity of using carapace on Plasma but YMMV as the Chimera already protects them and really they're still guardsmen so I keep them cheap.

As someone that regularly runs Airborne Vets just as much as Chimera Vets I'd say that the Chimera is far from mandatory. I wouldn't footslog Vets ever honestly if you want to play to a high level but I'd say using Grav Chute Insertion has won me a fair few games by dropping in my guys right into the thick of the action with a fusillade of melta/plasma fire.


Anyway, in terms of weapons:

Flamer: Budget option if you absolutely need a scoring unit in a Vendetta (I would never run these with Chimeras) that is of variable effectiveness and only recent decent against at best standard T4 MEQ. Normally I run 3/4x flamers on a PCS and let my CCS substitute that PCS after chucking the PCS in the Vendetta where their crappy BS doesn't matter, but that's not an issue to you I guess.
Heavy Flamer: Way overpriced, I'd avoid like the plague
Grenade Launcher: Mediocre, and that's not what you want, plasma is so much of a better choice for 10 more points its not even funny.
Plasma Gun: The most common one I take, and what I primarily use to give my Vet Squads potent anti-infantry firepower and the ability to tackle Riptides.
Melta Gun: Best worth it on Chimera Vets, still worth taking for use against things like Wave Serpents and for being ready for anything.
Sniper Rifle: Naff, requires you to be stationary to fire and can't be taken in high enough volumes to be effective. Avoid like the plague.

For Heavy Weapons I'd at most take an Autocannon. The other options are just a bit too naff and a waste of points.

In terms of doctrines, pick your poison. Demolitions only really works in a Vendetta unit but you definitely have to play dangerously if you feel the need to Grav-Chute. Grenadiers is iffy but on occasion worth it for the protection against common AP5 small arms when you're holding something critical like an objective and Forward Sentries makes your guys considerably harder to force out of a fortified position.

Veterans are definitely at their best in a Chimera. I also must agree with Ailaros in that they are (rather deceptively) a DEFENSIVE unit. Aggressively using Chimeras means exposed side armour, and if you're giving the opponent side armour you're throwing away the unit. Mechanized veterans are basically 12" threat bubbles, they're fantastic for keeping the opponent away from key locations of the board or protecting other valuable units and, as Ailaros mentioned, they're great as a reaction force.

I agree with Ailaros in pretty much every aspect he mentioned. I will add on a few things.

If you want to actually use Orders from your Company Command Squad (it can issue two Orders a Turn, so one to itself and one to a Vet unit), you can't put them in a vehicle. If you don't care then this doesn't matter. But Orders are very good. They both see a MC or vehicle (or a Flyer version of either)? 'Bring it Down!' makes all of their weapons twin linked. You tired of lucky cover saves? 'Fire on my Target!' makes them re-roll successful Cover saves. You set both the Vets and the CCS in the back with a Lascannon each and 3 plasma on the vets and a Plasma and a Regimental Banner on the CCS to give Ld re-rolls for both units and go to town. At this point I would consider Camo Cloaks on both and sit them behind a ADL or in cover on a rear objective. Throw a Officer of the Fleet and a Astropath in the CCS for Lolz. The price of the Camo Cloaks and the advisor is 5pts cheaper than the Chimera, so take that into consideration. And yes the Advisors, even as an Allie, help your Reserve rolls and hinder their rolls.

Course if your a mech player, throw them both in a Chimera with 7 special weapons between them and maybe a AC on the Vets for a Str synergy weapon and have fun. I still like a Heavy Flamer on the hull of the Chimeras and always rock the Multi-laser for Str 6 douchbaggery. The Chimeras are actually better than Rhinos, but for a lot of extra points.

Then if you /really/ want to troll your opponent, get a Squad of two Vendettas and load them up with your Vets and CCS with 7 Meltas or Plasmas and Deep Strike them in from reserves, and then fly your squad of Vendettas around and fire 6 Twin Linked Lascannons at anything and watch it die a horrible death. For extra lolz, you can spend 20pts (10pts each) for Heavy Bolter side sponsons and give each 6 additional Heavy Bolter shots (at BS 3) a turn. Remember the rule that Zooming Flyers can only fire four weapons (pg 80 BRB).

The finial thing to consider is the new Inquisitors. Either add them to your IG or to your main force. Being able to use Prescience on IG Artillery can be very, /very/ brutal where you might want to consider a Manticore or a Colossus or a squad with three (Twin Linked and Ignores cover, Str 6 AP 3? Yes Please!). And if you use it on the squads (and thus also bolster their Leadership for Orders), you can make them Twin Linked with Prescience and then issue 'Fire on my Target!' to force the units your shooting at (Flyers, skimmers, and anything else with a cover save) to re-roll successful cover saves. It can be very effective, if you have the points to spend or the RL money to spend.

Good luck!

Also adding to the point above if you take an inquisitor with servo skulls your blasts are scattering D6" less and your units with 'decent of angels' wont scatter at all within the skulls radius.

PG x 3 + LC
or
MG x 3 + Demo doctrine
or
Sniper x 3 + AC camo doctrine

 BlkTom wrote:
I agree with Ailaros in pretty much every aspect he mentioned. I will add on a few things.
And if you use it on the squads (and thus also bolster their Leadership for Orders), you can make them Twin Linked with Prescience and then issue 'Fire on my Target!' to force the units your shooting at (Flyers, skimmers, and anything else with a cover save) to re-roll successful cover saves. It can be very effective, if you have the points to spend or the RL money to spend.

Good luck!

I didn't think you could give orders to non-infantry units?

You really don't need anything other than three special weapons with a transport. Add a lascannon if you don't plan on moving.

I'd never get carapace armour, it's just not cost effective. If you gave your HQ, and 4 Veteran squads carapace armour you're spending enough points to just buy a whole extra squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlkTom wrote:
I agree with Ailaros in pretty much every aspect he mentioned. I will add on a few things.

If you want to actually use Orders from your Company Command Squad (it can issue two Orders a Turn, so one to itself and one to a Vet unit), you can't put them in a vehicle. If you don't care then this doesn't matter. But Orders are very good. They both see a MC or vehicle (or a Flyer version of either)? 'Bring it Down!' makes all of their weapons twin linked. You tired of lucky cover saves? 'Fire on my Target!' makes them re-roll successful Cover saves. You set both the Vets and the CCS in the back with a Lascannon each and 3 plasma on the vets and a Plasma and a Regimental Banner on the CCS to give Ld re-rolls for both units and go to town. At this point I would consider Camo Cloaks on both and sit them behind a ADL or in cover on a rear objective. Throw a Officer of the Fleet and a Astropath in the CCS for Lolz. The price of the Camo Cloaks and the advisor is 5pts cheaper than the Chimera, so take that into consideration. And yes the Advisors, even as an Allie, help your Reserve rolls and hinder their rolls.

Course if your a mech player, throw them both in a Chimera with 7 special weapons between them and maybe a AC on the Vets for a Str synergy weapon and have fun. I still like a Heavy Flamer on the hull of the Chimeras and always rock the Multi-laser for Str 6 douchbaggery. The Chimeras are actually better than Rhinos, but for a lot of extra points.

Then if you /really/ want to troll your opponent, get a Squad of two Vendettas and load them up with your Vets and CCS with 7 Meltas or Plasmas and Deep Strike them in from reserves, and then fly your squad of Vendettas around and fire 6 Twin Linked Lascannons at anything and watch it die a horrible death. For extra lolz, you can spend 20pts (10pts each) for Heavy Bolter side sponsons and give each 6 additional Heavy Bolter shots (at BS 3) a turn. Remember the rule that Zooming Flyers can only fire four weapons (pg 80 BRB).

The finial thing to consider is the new Inquisitors. Either add them to your IG or to your main force. Being able to use Prescience on IG Artillery can be very, /very/ brutal where you might want to consider a Manticore or a Colossus or a squad with three (Twin Linked and Ignores cover, Str 6 AP 3? Yes Please!). And if you use it on the squads (and thus also bolster their Leadership for Orders), you can make them Twin Linked with Prescience and then issue 'Fire on my Target!' to force the units your shooting at (Flyers, skimmers, and anything else with a cover save) to re-roll successful cover saves. It can be very effective, if you have the points to spend or the RL money to spend.

Good luck!

Two things I feel like mentioning. I'm 99% sure an astropath does not help your main armies reserve rolls if you have IG allies. Second, you can't deepstrike Vendettas.

The main benefit of a Veteran Squad is that you can customise it for a specific role. In my infantry heavy list, I use them for counter assault and anti-armour.

Also, as already mentioned a Penal Legion squad can be awesome as a distraction (never expect them to kill stuff though).

 ultimentra wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
If you want to actually use Orders from your Company Command Squad (it can issue two Orders a Turn, so one to itself and one to a Vet unit), you can't put them in a vehicle. If you don't care then this doesn't matter.

I didn't think you could give orders to non-infantry units?

You can't. You can't even give Orders to a unit in a vehicle or out of a vehicle, even if your the unit in the vehicle. Chimeras have a special rule to allow issuing Orders out of them, but it is one way (A unit in a Chimera can't receive an Order).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tybg wrote:


Two things I feel like mentioning. I'm 99% sure an astropath does not help your main armies reserve rolls if you have IG allies. Second, you can't deepstrike Vendettas.

Vendettas only got rid of the Scout Special rule, not the Deep Strike Special rule.

Page 56 / 101 – Valkyrie Assault Carrier – Scout
Remove Scout from the Special Rules section of both the
Bestiary and Army List entries for the Valkyrie Assault Carrier
and Vendetta Gunship.

This is the only rule from the FAQ talking about reserve rolls and Allies.

Q: Do modifiers that apply to such things as Reserve rolls, apply
to units from an allied detachment? (p124)
A: No.

Note it says 'Apply to units from an allied detachment', so your playing a Autarch with +1 Reserve rolls, your Allies in reserve do not get the benefit. But a Autarch as a Allied Commander would effect his own detachment (allies) and the main detachment... because it does not say Allies can not effect the main detachment. Thus an Allied Astropath can effect everyone, but a Astropath in your main detachment does not effect your Allies.

You can give orders to Artillary Gun Batterys I think this what was meant earlier.

 Sinji wrote:
You can give orders to Artillary Gun Batterys I think this what was meant earlier.

I don't do Forgeworld, but I do know they have some non-vehicle artillery. I can not answer if it is a legal target for Orders or not.

 BlkTom wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
You can give orders to Artillary Gun Batterys I think this what was meant earlier.

I don't do Forgeworld, but I do know they have some non-vehicle artillery. I can not answer if it is a legal target for Orders or not.

They are a legal target for orders. The Sabre turrets are already twin-linked, but they are all still really good targets for orders, especially forcing re-rolls on cover saves.

Thanks Talore!