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RAW, models going to ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, not +2 to the cover save granted by the area terrain they are in.

Frankly, I'm ok with this. It gives my opponents just cause for putting their models on the bottom floor of multi-floor ruins as we play only the base the ruin is mounted on is area terrain.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, let's say that for some reason it only replaces the GtG bonus for one of your cover saves, which cover saves am I limited to applying the bonus to? Please support your answer using rules, not assumptions.

Why is it limited to applying to only 1 cover save?

It isn't, some nutcases people on this forum think it is and I'm humouring them.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It isn't, some nutcases people on this forum think it is...

Always good to see someone addressing an argument with cold, hard logic.

Some people think that the omission of an "s" in the rules for going to ground in area terrain somehow overrides the rules for going to ground, and that we are only supposed to replace the cover save bonus for area terrain despite there being no indication of this in the rules at all, and I'm humouring them.

Better?

In the situation given by the poster, the best save that can be achieved is a 3+. I think that everyone agrees that the following cover saves are correct; Open- Nothing, Area- 5#, Ruin- 4+, and Fortification- 3+.

When taking a cover save you take which ever save allows the greatest benefit, i.e. the best save. The saves do not stack meaning a cover save for a model in a ruin in the middle of area terrain does not grant a 2+ save (+2 from the area terrain and +3 form the ruin).

Additionally, the rule for going to ground modifies the cover save that the model is entitled to. Again everyone agrees that the modifier is either +1 or +2 if the model is in area terrain or within 2" of an ADL.

Taking all of that together, you first determine the best possible save that applies to the model in question. From there apply any modifiers that the model is entitled to, going to ground, stealth, or shrouded. In the case of the OP, a model that is obscurred by a ruin is entitled to a cover save of 4+ the model then applies a go to ground modifier of +1 since a ruin is neither area terrain or an ADL. Therefore the best save that the model in question can receive is a 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, let's say that for some reason it only replaces the GtG bonus for one of your cover saves, which cover saves am I limited to applying the bonus to? Please support your answer using rules, not assumptions.

Why is it limited to applying to only 1 cover save?

Becasue the rules do not state that multiple cover save can be applied. This is a permissive rule set, a rule must exist for the said action to be able to be performed.

Yes, and the rule states your save is improved by 2. I choose my Ruin cover save to be improved.

If you disagree that I can choose, then you are stck, as you have nothing allowing you s=to say it is only the area terrain one .

Cuthbert: I'm a little confused by your argument, are you saying that it is impossible to be both in area terrain and obscured by ruins? Because it certainly is possible, all you need to do is be in a based ruin on the ground floor and be obscured, or be obscured by ruins while also in another terrain piece that is area terrain.

I'm confused. Sorry guys. I have to say I agree with HIvefleet oblivion on this. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

But wouldn't you have to pick which cover you were going to take before GTG.

4+ for ruins + 1 GTG =3+
5+ for area + 2 GTG =3+

I cant find anywhere in the rules where it says you can benefit from multiple covers simultaneously. I can only find the area terrain rules that by RAW it specifically states that when you GTG in area terrain(+2) you get the specific RAW bonus. But if you GTG in ruins(+1) you do no gain that bonus(+2)

This is very important to me to get this rule right because I constantly play in tournaments where the levels of ruins count as area terrain.

It states you can have multiple saves, with no upper limits.

Multiple saves taking the best one. So which is best one?

GTG in ruins 3+
or
GTG in area terrain 3+

Its hard to justify every infantry models in the game having 2+ cover when GTG in a ruin.

70% of cover in our games are ruins so I'm a bit irritated. But i'm not pushing for the rule one way or another I'm just trying to figure this out so I know what I'm getting myself into next tournament.

 Masos wrote:
Its hard to justify every infantry models in the game having 2+ cover when GTG in a ruin

Its not about being justified, that's what the rule says

The real question is was the ruin based at all? If there was no base then area terrain isn't even considered.

Masks - so you are arguing RAI? Then state so. If I can only boost one save, I'll boost the 4+

 Masos wrote:
Multiple saves taking the best one. So which is best one?

GTG in ruins 3+
or
GTG in area terrain 3+

Its hard to justify every infantry models in the game having 2+ cover when GTG in a ruin.

70% of cover in our games are ruins so I'm a bit irritated. But i'm not pushing for the rule one way or another I'm just trying to figure this out so I know what I'm getting myself into next tournament.

That's not how the rules work, it goes: pick the best cover save from Ruins (4+) or Area terrain (5+) then apply the g2g bonus (+2) for going to ground in area terrain.
Also, to get this said infantry model needs to be (a) obscured by ruins, (b) be in a based ruin, (c) be on the bottom floor of the based ruin, and (d) going to ground, compare this to a Daemon of Nurgle, which only needs to be sitting behind an ADL or a ruin to receive a 2+ cover save. Or any infantry unit in the game being able to go to ground behind an ADL for a 2+.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and the rule states your save is improved by 2. I choose my Ruin cover save to be improved.

If you disagree that I can choose, then you are stck, as you have nothing allowing you s=to say it is only the area terrain one .

And you have nothing to say you get to choose which save to improve.


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 PrinceRaven wrote:
That's not how the rules work, it goes: pick the best cover save from Ruins (4+) or Area terrain (5+) then apply the g2g bonus (+2) for going to ground in area terrain.

No that isn't how it works. Going to ground is applied before you choose a save to use. When you go to ground you get +1 to all of your cover saves, regardless of whether you are using them or not. The area terrain rules say that, for a single save, the bonus is improved from +1 to +2. It doesn't specify which save is improved, but since the context is talking about a cover save from the area terrain it is a much more reasonable assumption that the +2 bonus applies to the area terrain save, not to some random save granted by something else.

So, let's say a model is standing in the area terrain at the base of the ruin, and obscured by both the ruin walls and another unit:

Base saves: 5+ save from the unit, 4+ from the ruin, 5+ from the area terrain, and any armor/invulnerable saves the model has.
After GTG: 4+ save from the unit (5+ with +1 bonus), 3+ from the ruin (4+ with +1 bonus), 3+ from the area terrain (5+ with +2 bonus), and any armor/invulnerable saves (unmodified).

 Peregrine wrote:
No that isn't how it works. Going to ground is applied before you choose a save to use. When you go to ground you get +1 to all of your cover saves, regardless of whether you are using them or not. The area terrain rules say that, for a single save, the bonus is improved from +1 to +2. It doesn't specify which save is improved, but since the context is talking about a cover save from the area terrain it is a much more reasonable assumption that the +2 bonus applies to the area terrain save, not to some random save granted by something else.

So, let's say a model is standing in the area terrain at the base of the ruin, and obscured by both the ruin walls and another unit:

Base saves: 5+ save from the unit, 4+ from the ruin, 5+ from the area terrain, and any armor/invulnerable saves the model has.
After GTG: 4+ save from the unit (5+ with +1 bonus), 3+ from the ruin (4+ with +1 bonus), 3+ from the area terrain (5+ with +2 bonus), and any armor/invulnerable saves (unmodified).

So you're saying the reason the rules for going to ground in area terrain are found in the area terrain section is because they only apply to area terrain. Isn't a much more likely reason the fact that the rules for going to ground in area terrain is an area terrain rule?
There are two assumptions you're making here, one is that the lack of a single letter dramatically changes the way going to ground in area terrain functions, the other is that this changed going to ground bonus only applies to your cover save from area terrain, despite the rule not stating that, and the fact that every other rule that talks about a model's cover save is referencing the one they are taking.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So you're saying the reason the rules for going to ground in area terrain are found in the area terrain section is because they only apply to area terrain. Isn't a much more likely reason the fact that the rules for going to ground in area terrain is an area terrain rule?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when the rules for going to ground in area terrain refer to a single save (and NOT multiple saves), the most likely save they are referring to is the one granted by the area terrain.

There are two assumptions you're making here, one is that the lack of a single letter dramatically changes the way going to ground in area terrain functions

Yes, I do assume that the rules follow the rules of English and the authors knew the difference between plural and singular nouns. And no, it doesn't dramatically change anything unless you assume that the rules already work your way and anything else would be a change.

(Just to be clear, in case you think I'm saying that GTG in area terrain doesn't give the +1 bonus to all cover saves: GTG in area terrain = +2 bonus to the save granted by the area terrain, +1 bonus to all other cover saves. Only the special +2 bonus is limited to a single save.)

the other is that this changed going to ground bonus only applies to your cover save from area terrain, despite the rule not stating that

No, they don't state it explicitly. But when a rule refers to a single save the most likely one it means is the one being discussed, not some other unrelated save.

and the fact that every other rule that talks about a model's cover save is referencing the one they are taking.

Only because most of the time there is only one save to talk about. However, that is NOT a general rule. For example, going to ground still improves a model's cover save even if the only wounds applied to the unit are from a template weapon. Even if the save can't be used it still exists and is still improved. Likewise for cases where a model has multiple saves, rules that talk about one of a model's saves are still in effect even if it has a better save that it will use if it suffers any wounds.

Why is the most likely cover save the area terrain one as opposed to the one they are taking?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Why is the most likely cover save the area terrain one as opposed to the one they are taking?

Because it's in the section on area terrain, and saves are improved before you choose which one to take. Referring to the one the model is taking implies that you've already chosen which save to use. So, in the case of an MEQ model in a ruin you'd have to follow the "best save" rule and commit to the 3+ armor save instead of the 4+ cover save before improving the 4+ cover save to a 2+ cover save. Since this situation is obviously absurd the conclusion is that the GTG bonus is applied before choosing which save to use, at which point there is no "save the model is taking" yet and the only single save the rule could plausibly be referring to is the one granted by the area terrain.

Let me make this abundantly clear, it is in the area terrain section because it is an area terrain rule, not because it is exclusive to area terrain cover saves. I agree, the wording isn't wonderful, it doesn't tell you which cover save you apply the +2 to. Fortunately, it does say it replaces the +1 in going to ground, so we can back to the going to ground rules and see which cover saves the going to ground bonus of +1 applies to. The answer is all of them, therefore, unless the rule states otherwise, a modified going to ground bonus will apply to all cover saves the model can make.

No I dont think it is abundantly clear, if it was we wouldn't have pages of discussion on it every time it comes up.

GtG is a 'generic' rule that applies to all cover saves. GtG(Area Terrain) is an exception rule that applies only when GtG in area terrain.

One inferrence is that you are using the area terrain cover save as the enhanced bonus only applies to their "cover save" in area terrain, as opposed to their "cover saving throws" which applies to all other cover, in this case ruins. The other inferrence you have stated above.

Both interpretations are gramatically correct and can be interpreted either way. It should be one of those areas discussed with your opponent when discussing the terrain on the battlefield.

Tbh, until GW FaQ it this will just keep coming round and round, with no clear answer ever given. People should just put forward both interpretations and leave it at that.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:


One inferrence is that you are using the area terrain cover save as the enhanced bonus only applies to their "cover save" in area terrain, as opposed to their "cover saving throws" which applies to all other cover, in this case ruins. The other inferrence you have stated above.

What is "their cover save". When being in area terrain and obscured by a ruin?

Answer: its 4+.

Where are they when they go to ground?

Answer: they are in area terrain

How much does "their cover save" get improved if they go to ground in area terrain?

Answer: its improved by 2

What is their best save?

Answer: 2+ cover save.


At least thats how i read it. I acknowledge people argue that the +2 only applies to the area terrain cover save but i dont really see that restriction to be honest. In a friendly i avoid such discussions and if my opponent insists ... fine we play it as a 3+. In a tournament i'd definitely let the TO decide that one.

Fallasur wrote:


This is the point of view my marines had (salamander is where the fire warrior was). The only "area terrain" I could think of besides walls and floor in the ruins are the little pebbles. Hope this helps.

I think the key here is everyone is assuming he was in ruins & area terrain. But from how you explained it, it seems to me is was just in ruins?

If so, ruins is 4+, he gets a +1 for going to ground as he isn't in area terrain, and as such he rolled a 2 on 3+ save which is a fail. Often on these threads people start obsessing over finer points, but I think actually your question is quite simple and he wasn't in area terrain as agreed between yourselves before the game? Sounds to me like you got ripped off :(.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is all simple and Prince Raven is correct. I don't get how people can get this stuff confused?

You have saves. The game states you get to choose ONE save, the best available to you.

In this case he has three possible saves:

1) His armour save (4+? I don't play Tau and none of my mates do, I'm assuming he is taking his cover save as it will be better?)

2) He is in ruins, a 4+. Going to ground in them confers +1, and he has a 3+ save.

3) He is also in area terrain. He does not get to stack his cover save with both the ruins, and the area terrain, he gets to make ONE SAVE. So, he has a 5+ from this AT, this gets improved by 2+ for going to ground in it, and he has another possible 3+ save.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mywik wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:


One inferrence is that you are using the area terrain cover save as the enhanced bonus only applies to their "cover save" in area terrain, as opposed to their "cover saving throws" which applies to all other cover, in this case ruins. The other inferrence you have stated above.

What is "their cover save". When being in area terrain and obscured by a ruin?

Answer: its 4+.

Where are they when they go to ground?

Answer: they are in area terrain

How much does "their cover save" get improved if they go to ground in area terrain?

Answer: its improved by 2

What is their best save?

Answer: 2+ cover save.


At least thats how i read it. I acknowledge people argue that the +2 only applies to the area terrain cover save but i dont really see that restriction to be honest. In a friendly i avoid such discussions and if my opponent insists ... fine we play it as a 3+. In a tournament i'd definitely let the TO decide that one.

If you take the ruins cover save (4+) you take the GTG rules that apply to ruins, +1 which gives a 3+ save. You cannot take the ruins save, and then apply the GTG modifier that applies to the area terrain. You may take the area terrain save and then apply the GTG modifier to this, which would again be a 3+.

 Tehjonny wrote:
If you take the ruins cover save (4+) you take the GTG rules that apply to ruins, +1 which gives a 3+ save. You cannot take the ruins save, and then apply the GTG modifier that applies to the area terrain. You may take the area terrain save and then apply the GTG modifier to this, which would again be a 3+.

Why not? which rule prevents you from applying the bonus for going to ground in area terrain to your ruins cover save if the model fulfils the requirements for both?

But which rule allows you to apply it?

Area terrain has a set value, 5+ Ruins has a set value 4+, there is no rule allowing you to take the 'specific' modifiers for one piece of terrain to apply to another. {Its almost like arguing that the bolter element of a combiflamer can ignore cover!}

Each peice of terrain has its over rules and modifiers, each should only apply those, find out which is the best, and roll accordingly.

Cheers

Andrew

looking at the rules for area terrain on p91, it would appear, at least to me, that the intent for a +2 for the going to ground would effect only the 5+ you get for the area terrain and would not transfer over to any other cover save.

my reasoning for this is taking the entire paragraph into the context it was written as a complete package rather than breaking it down.

[...]Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that go to ground in area terrain receive a +2 to their cover save rather than a +1. - BRB p91

so the cover save provided is a 5+ which, if going to ground, will improve to a 3+ instead of a 4+.

I can see why people would want to take it that far but what you are saying in allowing a 2+ from ruins being modified is that being in a burned out, dilapidated ruin and hitting the deck is better than being behind an Agies defence line which is a solid fortification and hitting the deck.....now if the firewarrior had acquired stealth then we would be talking....

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Tehjonny wrote:
If you take the ruins cover save (4+) you take the GTG rules that apply to ruins, +1 which gives a 3+ save. You cannot take the ruins save, and then apply the GTG modifier that applies to the area terrain. You may take the area terrain save and then apply the GTG modifier to this, which would again be a 3+.

Why not? which rule prevents you from applying the bonus for going to ground in area terrain to your ruins cover save if the model fulfils the requirements for both?

Andrew C pretty much answered this for me - and it seems I put myself in agreement with the wrong person in my earlier post so apologies for any confusion!

It's implicit in the cover save rules. The GTG save bonuses are quite clearly stated in terms of how they're applied. If you go to ground in ruins etc, it's a +1., if you go to ground in area terrain, it's a +2. Those bonuses are dependent on which cover save you choose to apply the GTG bonus to, following the rules for being allowed to take only one armour save. I don't see any scenario were someone could say 'my cover save from the ruins is this, and now I'm taking my area terrain GTG bonus on top of that'. You've stated you are taking your ruins cover save, and as such you gain the GTG bonus that applies to ruins, a +1.

Or alternatively, you may go to ground in the area terrain with the cover save this provides, with the GTG bonus that applies to that area terrain. A 5+ raised to a 3+ again.

Have a look at PG 19 in the BRB - column closest to the right the paragraph just above the heading 'Maximum Save'. It states 'If a model can benefit from different types of cover, for example, being behind a bloodthorn hedge (6+ cover save) and a barricade (4+ cover save) the model uses the best cover save available'.

You can't take your best cover save, and then apply the best modifier available to you, as that modifier applies to an entirely different cover save, not to your ruins cover save. If you are in multiple forms of cover, your choose 1 just like you would at any other time, after seeing which is best with the respective modifiers.

similar point and case arrises with Captain Lysander, he has the shield (3+) the halo (4+) and armour (5+) for invul saves.

he just takes the best available.

"Implicit" - So, you can't actually prove your case using rules, but you think that's how it should work and that's good enough for you? Ok, fine, go ahead, feel free to play it that way, just don't pretend your house rule is the only way to play it. I am constantly annoyed by self-righteous players who come onto forums and complain that everyone playing by the rules is doing it wrong, please don't be one of those people.