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They probably would, but I'm sure that, as said before, a conflict on that scale would start another Civil War. There would be too many people picking sides, and I'm sure Abaddon would slip in and make a run towards Terra if he saw the Imperium too caught up in a conflict of that size.

because you would be disgracing Leman Russ legacy

The Space Wolves are also very popular with the Imperial Guard. Popular enough that Creed tossed in his vote to elect Logan as overall leader of the Black Crusade. All stories involving the guard and wolves always has the wolves looking out for and caring about the guard, too (although I'm aware that the guard itself isn't a unified force. For the most part depictions of them consistently like the Space Wolves, though). Also popular enough that one of the most popular Imperial Guard tanks is named after the Space Wolves' primarch.

I'm sure the same can be said about the Germans and the Japanese between the mid 1930s and 1945.

I suppose, but the Space Wolves say they are trying to emulate Logan and that they've never changed.

Yay, more SW hate.

31 st wolves are different than 41 st wolves. Wolves in the 41st are celebrated heros whos legacy to the common man (those who don't know about political ongoings) is that of heros and saviors. Much like all the other SM chapters.

Declaring them heretic would just not sit well with general populace opinion. And thats a fight I don't think anyone would want. It would practically fraction the IOM and its barely hanging together as it is. The same could be said for any of the chapters for that matter however. SM chapters are just that special.

And while the Wolves do butt heads with those whom think too much of themselves, they rarely are the instigators of the conflicts. They usually fight in retaliation and do so with all the vim and vigor their chapter is known for.

I will give them some protection from plot armor. They are one of GWs favorite factions, but if you actually read the codex, they don't really come across as the jerks everyone paints them as. However, I do realize that all codexs paint the home faction as the heros and undoubtedly they have to fight somebody so other factions get picked on. I doubt you would ever find the sisters conflict show up in the sisters codex. So there is that.

why would the space wovles value Logan Grimmar over Russ?

Matt1785 wrote:

The galaxy is massive, and the amount of firepower required to destroy an entire legion? And a 1st founding chapter? Nah, never going to happen.

They aren't a Legion, haven't been one for 10k years. And whole chapters get wiped all the time. Personally I'd love to see SW get a friendly visit from Asterion Moloc and his boys.

Wilytank wrote:

I'm sure the same can be said about the Germans and the Japanese between the mid 1930s and 1945.

I'm sure it can't.

i still don't see why space wolves would look up to Logan over Russ

LightKing wrote:
i still don't see why space wolves would look up to Logan over Russ

Russ* I've been messing up names all day while sick.

Plot armour. It would be okay if the Wolves were only a nuisance and not very reliable, but open rebellion is a bit harder to stomach when you consider how the setting seems to react to anyone else pulling this sort of stuff.
Unfortunately, some writers think it's not a problem for the narration and the setting's atmosphere if they have the Wolves just keep pushing, and pushing, and pushing the line without and real consequences. It is this sort of treatment that ultimately damages the setting as a whole, and lets everything look worse.

TiamatRoar wrote:The inquisition isn't a united force. [...] Hell, one of the inquisitors involved was from Fenris!

Wat.

The Inquisition recruits Feral Worlders into its ranks now? One more reason to disavow of that novel, I guess.

And the Inquisition may not be a unified force - but it stands to reason they do take unified offense against anyone making a mockery of their authority as an organisation, because this is the single-most important tool of the Inquisition, without which it cannot operate.
That's why, for example, the Sons of Malice were still hunted into exile even though the Inquisition agreed that Pietas made a bad call with her decree.
That's why, for example, Inquisitor Dahwrin was merely "censured", whereas Magos Lurd was executed as a traitor, even though Lurd led the AdMech force that put an end to Dahwrin's unauthorised experiments.
That's how it works in GW's own material, anyways. Because you don't just "off" a Lord Inquisitor and walk away with nobody else having a problem with that.

TiamatRoar wrote:In addition, it'd be a huge blow to morale across the entire Imperium if the wolves were declared traitors. One of the wolves was around when the Emperor still walked the earth, for crying out loud. How would YOU feel if one of the last people alive when your GOD WALKED THE EARTH was declared a traitor?

You're assuming that anyone not on Fenris knows and cares.
Hell, the people "across the Imperium" would not even notice if the Space Wolves would be declared traitors, because that kind of stuff doesn't make it into the news - which the Imperium doesn't even have on half its worlds. And that's still assuming that Joe Shmock on Forgeworld 415 has ever actually heard of the Space Wolves by name, rather than just knowing the general "Astartes" legend because he walks by some statue every morning on the way to his work shift.

I guess it's a matter of interpretation, but the way I see things, the people of the Imperium have other things to worry about. Like, "how do I survive until tomorrow in this hellhole".
And guess what the average citizen is going to think when his Ecclesiarchy Preacher, the one he went to ever since he can remember, suddenly starts telling him there's a bunch of heretical mutants who besmirch the Emperor's glorious legacy with their actions, but that he should not fear as forces loyal to the Throne on Terra have now begun a purge of their world?

Jefffar wrote:Basically through their actions the Wolves upset some parts of the Imperium while becoming more celebrated by others.

Thing is, who actually does celebrate the Wolves? Which faction actually likes them? The Navy, which clashed with the Wolves' fleet over Fenris? (twice, depending on the sources) The segmentum's Imperial Guard, which lost millions of men in a failed invasion attempt during Bucharis' reign? The Ecclesiarchy, which has only recently put them on their "top 10 things to purge" list? Or, if you include that weird Black Library novel, the Inquisition, whose authority received a significant blow in the form of a Chapter Master refusing an Inquisitorial command, and then killing a Lord Inquisitor? The Administratum, which as per Codex fluff Grimnar has vowed to "never forgive"?
Did I forget someone?

Honestly, it seems to me the SW have managed to piss off everyone in the Imperium. The problem is, the setting does not react to this how it, by all rights, should. And that's a bit sad, as the entire development has turned the SW into a weird caricature of their original portrayal, and the IoM into a punching bag for them.

Jefffar wrote:I'd expect that if the push was made in earnest against the Wolves, you'd see a number of the first founding chapters deciding that the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have gone too far (indeed, they would wonder if they are next as the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and High Lords all compete for power with the Marines to some extent). Where the first founding chapters went, many of the latter chapters would go as well.

I keep hearing that, but I've never seen anything in GW's material implying this kind of cohesion. It's more like the opposite, actually - the Inquisition likes "tipping off" other Space Marine Chapter Masters because the Astartes are a bit trigger-happy against their brethren ever since the Horus Heresy.
That being said, if this would be an actual concern, I'm sure "accidents" could be arranged. You know, like what happened to the Celestial Lions. Damn Ork Snipers and their accurate shootas.

herpguy wrote:Plus, IF it were to come to a point that the wolves needed to be put down, I really don't think that there is any power in the Imperium that could do it. SW are probably the largest chapter, and I really don't think any amount of SoB could do it.

Depends. Are we talking plot armour, or the more general background that says Marines need to call in the Imperial Guard when it gets tough?

Do you have any particular reason or basis for discounting a feral worlder inquisitor?

Void__Dragon wrote:Do you have any particular reason or basis for discounting a feral worlder inquisitor?

Education, for one.
I mean, you're basically taking someone who grew up in some 15th century farm and try to turn them into an operative who can utilise "modern" technology (and not just the lasgun which gets tossed to any feral world IG) and, perhaps more importantly, separate fact from fiction.
Fenris' population is, from all I've read, heavily steeped in superstition, and I'd say this is a very bad basis for someone who is supposed to employ scientific methods in the pursuit of their duties.
The bias, the lack of even the most basic skills, ... what actually is it that anyone could see in someone from Fenris to make them an Inquisitor? The kind of authority that comes with the title is hilariously dangerous in the hands of a medieval nutjob who grew up thinking Space Marines are "sky warriors riding on steeds of flame" (codex quote btw).

 Lynata wrote:
Plot armour. It would be okay if the Wolves were only a nuisance and not very reliable, but open rebellion is a bit harder to stomach when you consider how the setting seems to react to anyone else pulling this sort of stuff.
Unfortunately, some writers think it's not a problem for the narration and the setting's atmosphere if they have the Wolves just keep pushing, and pushing, and pushing the line without and real consequences. It is this sort of treatment that ultimately damages the setting as a whole, and lets everything look worse.

TiamatRoar wrote:The inquisition isn't a united force. [...] Hell, one of the inquisitors involved was from Fenris!

Wat.

The Inquisition recruits Feral Worlders into its ranks now? One more reason to disavow of that novel, I guess.

And the Inquisition may not be a unified force - but it stands to reason they do take unified offense against anyone making a mockery of their authority as an organisation, because this is the single-most important tool of the Inquisition, without which it cannot operate.
That's why, for example, the Sons of Malice were still hunted into exile even though the Inquisition agreed that Pietas made a bad call with her decree.
That's why, for example, Inquisitor Dahwrin was merely "censured", whereas Magos Lurd was executed as a traitor, even though Lurd led the AdMech force that put an end to Dahwrin's unauthorised experiments.
That's how it works in GW's own material, anyways. Because you don't just "off" a Lord Inquisitor and walk away with nobody else having a problem with that.

They offed the Lord Inquisitor in the same novel that has the Inquisitor from Fenris. If you're going to discount the novel because it has an Inquisitor from Fenris, you'll have to discount their offing of a Lord Inquisitor, too. You can't just say one part of a novel is canon while another part of that same friggin' novel is not. Cherry picking parts of the same novel to declare one part of it as canon and the other part as not is a big sign of bias.

You're assuming that anyone not on Fenris knows and cares.

At least in that novel, everyone else who wasn't from Fenris immediately knelt in Bjorn's presence. So according to that novel, it's canon that outsiders are aware of who Bjorn is.

I can't say for sure if that's in the studio fluff or not. I was under the impression Bjorn was famous across the Imperium and think that it'd be ridiculous if he wasn't (that'd be like the Apostle Peter still alive in Israel and people in America not knowing about it. Again, this guy was alive when the Emperor was and has been around for 10,000 years. How could the Imperium at large NOT know about him?)

But I can't say for sure if there's any studio fluff that addresses it. Just that the novel definately does and everyone, including that Lord Inquisitor that later gets killed, were all awed by his presence.

Hell, the people "across the Imperium" would not even notice if the Space Wolves would be declared traitors, because that kind of stuff doesn't make it into the news - which the Imperium doesn't even have on half its worlds. And that's still assuming that Joe Shmock on Forgeworld 415 has ever actually heard of the Space Wolves by name, rather than just knowing the general "Astartes" legend because he walks by some statue every morning on the way to his work shift.

The Space Wolves are famous enough that the most common Imperial Guard tank is named after their Primarch. Maybe the wolves aren't everywhere, but the Imperial Guard sure as hell is.

I'm pretty sure it's stated even in Studio Fluff somewhere that all the legions are famous across the Imperium. I could be wrong. If it's not stated, I think it's a safe enough assumption given the Imperial Guard has a tank named after their Primarch.

I guess it's a matter of interpretation, but the way I see things, the people of the Imperium have other things to worry about. Like, "how do I survive until tomorrow in this hellhole".

And guess what the average citizen is going to think when his Ecclesiarchy Preacher, the one he went to ever since he can remember, suddenly starts telling him there's a bunch of heretical mutants who besmirch the Emperor's glorious legacy with their actions, but that he should not fear as forces loyal to the Throne on Terra have now begun a purge of their world?

Imperial propaganda wouldn't care whether the average Imperial Citizen has better things to worry about or not. If the Imperium propaganda machine can give people the image of heroes to believe in, I'm sure it will. Which is why, again, I think the first founding legions and their primarchs being well-known across the Imperium is more likely than not.

Thus the Ecclesiarchy would have difficulty getting these citizens to turn against something that Imperial Propaganda has likely force fed into their minds as a hero.

Honestly, it seems to me the SW have managed to piss off everyone in the Imperium. The problem is, the setting does not react to this how it, by all rights, should. And that's a bit sad, as the entire development has turned the SW into a weird caricature of their original portrayal, and the IoM into a punching bag for them.

They haven't pissed off the Imperial Guard to my knowledge. Which is the biggest fighting force in the entire Imperium.

Jefffar wrote:
That being said, if this would be an actual concern, I'm sure "accidents" could be arranged. You know, like what happened to the Celestial Lions. Damn Ork Snipers and their accurate shootas.

I think it was stated in that short story regarding the Lions (where the Black Templars help them recover) that such a thing wouldn't happen to a First Founding chapter, but the Lions didn't have that kind of political protection. Not studio fluff, but again, clearly the Black Library authors at least seem to be consistently disagreeing with your assessment.

 Wilytank wrote:
For the record, if the Space Wolves were officially declared renegade, they'd be even more badass.

True that!!!

TiamatRoar wrote:They offed the Lord Inquisitor in the same novel that has the Inquisitor from Fenris. If you're going to discount the novel because it has an Inquisitor from Fenris, you'll have to discount their offing of a Lord Inquisitor, too. You can't just say one part of a novel is canon while another part of that same friggin' novel is not. Cherry picking parts of the same novel to declare one part of it as canon and the other part as not is a big sign of bias.

Oh, but I do discount it for my own interpretation - hence I was saying "one more reason".
I'm still throwing my opinion about it in here as the topic came up.

TiamatRoar wrote:I can't say for sure if that's in the studio fluff or not. I was under the impression Bjorn was famous across the Imperium and think that it'd be ridiculous if he wasn't (that'd be like the Apostle Peter still alive in Israel and people in America not knowing about it. Again, this guy was alive when the Emperor was and has been around for 10,000 years. How could the Imperium at large NOT know about him?)

Why should the Imperium know about him? For this to work, you'd actually need a connection between the Chapters and the populace at large. Who is going to spread this information? The Ecclesiarchy?

This is the downside of isolation. It works both ways. The more they stand apart from the Imperium, the less they can expect to be known or respected, simply because these links were shattered by the Chapter's decision to stop working together with the High Lords or whatever led to such a breach. Every Chapter of the Space Marines is affected to a different degree here, with the Ultras arguably being an example for closely maintained ties. It seems to me as if the SW occupy the other end of the spectrum.

As for Codex fluff, it says Bjorn is "held in awe by his battle-brothers" - that's about it.

TiamatRoar wrote:The Space Wolves are famous enough that the most common Imperial Guard tank is named after their Primarch. Maybe the wolves aren't everywhere, but the Imperial Guard sure as hell is.

That doesn't make much of a connection to the Space Wolves, though, only to their leader. And how many civilians in today's world know who, say, Mr. Abrams or Mr. Bradley were?
Consider that the Imperium is an immensely huge realm with uncounted thousands of populated planets. The amount of knowledge in the little heads of the people is limited. They likely won't be filled with such redundant information - but I admit that this is, again, a matter of interpretation.

TiamatRoar wrote:Thus the Ecclesiarchy would have difficulty getting these citizens to turn against something that Imperial Propaganda has likely force fed into their minds as a hero.

I'm not entirely sure the Ecclesiarchy would spend that much effort on propagating the legends of the Primarchs. And the Ecclesiarchy is the primary source for propaganda in the Imperium of Man. The worst case would be the people who told you yesterday the SM are the good guys turning around today and telling you they've betrayed us. Would you suddenly stop believing the Preacher in favour of someone you only ever heard about thanks to him?

TiamatRoar wrote:They haven't pissed off the Imperial Guard to my knowledge. Which is the biggest fighting force in the entire Imperium.

Granted, I suppose you could say that Bucharis' siege doesn't count because the millions of Guardsmen were essentially led by a traitor.
Still, I think it's important to consider that every single IG regiment has an Ecclesiarchal Confessor attached to them, which gives the Ministorum a lot of influence over the minds of the people.

TiamatRoar wrote:I think it was stated in that short story regarding the Lions (where the Black Templars help them recover) that such a thing wouldn't happen to a First Founding chapter, but the Lions didn't have that kind of political protection. Not studio fluff, but again, clearly the Black Library authors at least seem to be consistently disagreeing with your assessment.

Some Black Library authors. They are (fortunately, in this case) far from having a uniform opinion on the subject.
However, what you are essentially saying is that the SW are basically barred from any kind of censure based on the sole reason that they are a First Founding Chapter, and that this allows them to give everyone the finger without having to fear repercussions?
See, that's exactly what I meant at "damaging the setting".

Although this makes even less sense. Why should the SW have enough influence to be immune from a covert strike which WAY fewer people would even have a chance at knowing about than a full-scale invasion?


PS: here's a picture of a Fenrisian Inquisitor, just because

You know what, your entire post is based on what-ifs of your own interpretation for arguing that it's just plot armour that the Space Wolves are not declared traitors. If you want to feel that way, that's fine. But GW's studios are fine with the Space Wolves not being traitors, whether it's due to their own unstated interpretations of how things in the Imperium of Man are, or whether it really is due to simple plot armour. Either way, it doesn't really matter in the end anyways since the end result is the same.

Thus, to answer the original question, it's either due to plot armour or one of the many other possibilities already brought up in this thread (or any combination thereof)

 Lynata wrote:
Education, for one.
I mean, you're basically taking someone who grew up in some 15th century farm and try to turn them into an operative who can utilise "modern" technology (and not just the lasgun which gets tossed to any feral world IG) and, perhaps more importantly, separate fact from fiction.
Fenris' population is, from all I've read, heavily steeped in superstition, and I'd say this is a very bad basis for someone who is supposed to employ scientific methods in the pursuit of their duties.
The bias, the lack of even the most basic skills, ... what actually is it that anyone could see in someone from Fenris to make them an Inquisitor? The kind of authority that comes with the title is hilariously dangerous in the hands of a medieval nutjob who grew up thinking Space Marines are "sky warriors riding on steeds of flame" (codex quote btw).

You are aware that Fenris employs its own armed forces? That use modern technologies? That are drawn from the population? Right?

Their superstition is just another way of worshipping the Emperor/Allfather. Which the Ecclesiarchy is pretty tolerant of.

Lack of what basic skills, pray tell?

There is mention of a Fenrisian Inquisitor by the way.

Inquisitor Annika Jarlsdottyr, a native Fenrisian, arrived at The Fang for the meeting. The Space Wolves had awoken the Venerable Dreadnought Bjorn the Fell-Handed to deal with the Inquisitorial party.

Just saying.

Their superstition is just another way of worshipping the Emperor/Allfather. Which the Ecclesiarchy is pretty tolerant of.

Uh no, not in all cases. It all depends on certain ones because several Space Marine chapters got annihilated as soon as some realized just how they were worshiping the Emperor

Which was?

the thing is i doubt the inquisistion would ever annihlate a founding chapter..... how would the imperium citizens react to such a thing if they found out the space wolves were annihilated

I can see why the SW did not call for help, at least. Escalating the defense could provoke the SoB into escalating the attack. And then it might continue from there into HH 2.0.

I think a lot of the explanations here aren't quite simple enough:

Most probably

1) The Inquisition knows and it doesn't care. A plot to off a rival inquisitor which suceeded could have very well been the result. It isn't a monolithic entity with clearly defined methods of reprisal.

More unlikely, but still possible:

2) News of the battle didn't get out. Ships get lost in the warp. A lot.

LightKing wrote:
the thing is i doubt the inquisistion would ever annihlate a founding chapter..... how would the imperium citizens react to such a thing if they found out the space wolves were annihilated

My guess is they'd never find out. The state here doesn't just control the media, it is the media.

Even if they did find out, what exactly are you saying might happen? Insurrection followed by horrific massacre? That's probably the best any rebels could hope for.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Which was?

Kathal, Captain of the First Company of the Sons of Malice, led the chapter victory rites, which bordered on cannibalism, observed by Inquisitor Pietas, a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus. Although flesh-eating rituals are not uncommon among the Space Marines, Pietas was obviously unacquainted with the barbarous customs of Space Marines and mobilized a strike force of Adepta Sororitas Celestians to deal with the "heretics." The Sisters made planetfall right in the midst of the Company at the height of their celebrations. Kathal and his troops responded to the interference of their sacred Chapter rites by savagely attacking the strike force, defeating the Celestians. Kathal dragged the meddling Inquisitor before the chapter altar where she was ritually sacrificed.

The Sons of Malice were excommunicated and now reside within the Eye of Terror, from which they wage a hate-fueled war against the Imperium they see as betraying them, as much as against other followers of Chaos.

These sort of things. It all depends on the Inquisitor who views it apparently.

I honestly couldn't see the imperium ridding itself of a 1st founding chapter, I imagine most of the first founding chapters and their offshoots would come to their defense. And also possibly risking another civil war

Space Wolves fluff is silly in general, it's probably the worst facet of the 40k universe. While much 40k fluff is rather nonsensical, SW's manage to do it in a way that's not only massively contradictory, but just comes off reading like a bad internet fanfic.

Between fighting with various other Imperial institutions they have no business surviving a war against, ridiculousness like firing artillery by smell (then rushing forward to watch the explosions, putting their weapons system in harms way and negating the point of it in the first place), the massively contradictory personalities (we're so dark and brooding, but we're also total party bros, but also we're werewolves, and at the same time, total geniuses at warfare, but were still bloodthirsty berzerkers too, etc ad nauseum), and the awful naming schemes (Canis Wolfborn, of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, known also as The Wolf King and Lord of the Wolfkin, who rides the great ThunderWolf Fangir, wielding his Wolfclaws and bearing Wolftooth Necklace, Bearer of the Saga of the Wolfkin, etc further ad nauseum), they really are rather difficult to take seriously.

It's best to just largely overlook SW fluff and accept the fact that it's bad and just move on and pretend they aren't there most of the time.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Their superstition is just another way of worshipping the Emperor/Allfather. Which the Ecclesiarchy is pretty tolerant of.

Yes, the Ecclesiarchy is indeed very tolerant of various ways of worshiping Big E. They don't even mind sacrificial rituals, as long as its in the Emperor's name.

However, what the Ecclesiarchy was coming to investigate initially was the "worship of pagan gods", which they had heard rumors of. This is crucial, as worship of other deities would indeed be a cause for concern for the Ecclesiarchy.

LightKing wrote:
the thing is i doubt the inquisistion would ever annihlate a founding chapter..... how would the imperium citizens react to such a thing if they found out the space wolves were annihilated

 mitch_rifle wrote:
I honestly couldn't see the imperium ridding itself of a 1st founding chapter, I imagine most of the first founding chapters and their offshoots would come to their defense. And also possibly risking another civil war

Feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I'm pretty sure that them being a First Founding Chapter doesn't really matter. The Ecclesiarchy showed no hesitation in sending three SoB Orders after the Wolves. They clearly weren't worried about being told not to do it or having other forces going against them.

As Chapters go, the Wolves have their flaws when it comes to getting along with the Imperium. They're famous for defying authority, which the massively authoritarian Imperium isn't going to like.

As for the citizens, they'd just be told that the Wolves went heretic. History is written by the victor, after all. And it's not like Space Marine Chapters haven't been wiped out before.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Their superstition is just another way of worshipping the Emperor/Allfather. Which the Ecclesiarchy is pretty tolerant of.

Not really. They do not worship the Emperor at all. They see him as a human, and are quite vocal in this regard.

They are heretics. And mutants. And in the eyes of many, traitors.

The reason they still breath is that they cannot be killed. At least three times an Imperial force has tried to wipe them out, and fail.

I don´t think it is "plot armour", it is just that Fenris is one of the most powerful strongholds of the Imperium. A real life equivalent would be Constantinople. Famed for its massive defenses, it was besieged on numerous occasions by armies outnumbering the defenders 100 to 1, and it was taken only in 1204 by the army of the Fourth Crusade, and only by treason. This army was supposed to be there to help them, and they invited them inside the walls. I think this is the only way Fenris can be taken in the setting: by treason.

The descriptions you read in the Black Library books, on the other side.... yes, that is plot armour of the worst kind.

I don´t think it is "plot armour", it is just that Fenris is one of the most powerful strongholds of the Imperium. A real life equivalent would be Constantinople. Famed for its massive defenses, it was besieged on numerous occasions by armies outnumbering the defenders 100 to 1, and it was taken only in 1204 by the army of the Fourth Crusade, and only by treason. This army was supposed to be there to help them, and they invited them inside the walls. I think this is the only way Fenris can be taken in the setting: by treason.

Problem is back then they didn't have Exterminatus bombs, Virus Bombs, or large amounts of ship to ships that outnumber Fenris. Fenris isn't exactly Ultramar with a vast force.