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Legend has foretold that the Space Wolves will be needed for Ragnarok in the future.

 Steve steveson wrote:
The thing is, the Inquisition and SoB are just as at much risk from any attack on a space marine chapter as the chapter.

Hardly. The Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition jostling around a single Space Marine Chapter is one thing, but a Chapter going on the offensive and attacking either of those organisations as a whole is going to get that Chapter in a lot of trouble, and probably declared traitors.

 Steve steveson wrote:
IF someone managed to find concrete proof of wrongdoing on the part of the SW they might be able to act, but until they do that they are likely to be signing there own death warrant.

The Ecclesiarchy was able to act quite substantially, and all that took was suspicion of improper worship and an unwarrented act of aggression.

Jefffar wrote:
The factions of the Ecclesarchy and Inquisition who want to humble or destroy the Space Wolves are still not willing to go full bore at them because they would be declaring war on a first founding chapter.

Yet the Ecclesiarchy was able to send in three whole Orders and suffered no majjor consequences from doing it. i'd call that quite an effort to smack the Wolves around.

Jefffar wrote:
This is the sort of action that can divide the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition further

How so? A common enemy is great for brining people together, assuming the circumstances. The Ecclesiarchy especially isn't really as prone to infighting as the Inquisition anyway.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Three Orders of Adepta Sororitas were wiped out when they went to investigate Fenris.

Nope. They fought the Wolves for three weeks and withdrew. No mention of it being a slaughter or the Orders wiped out whatsoever. In fact, it's stated that they withdrew of their own will rather than were driven away by force.

A lot of people seem to believe that the Ecclesiarchy's merry trip into Space Wolf territory was a complete massacre of the Sisters, and I'm not sure why. It's not what the fluff says at all.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter, and one of the most powerful and respected above that, hold vast amounts of political power.

With all those institutions they've managed to alienate?

They didn't. They only angered the Eclessiarchy, whose power is limited and which holds no authority whatsoever over the Astartes.
And they also angered one inquisitor which was subsequently killed off. They did not 'alienate' all of the inquisition. The inquisition is not a unified whole. As I mentioned, even during the months of shame, many in the inquisition sided with the SW.

Many of whom dislike or have zero association with the SW's or see them as rabid dogs. Most wouldn't miss the SW's.

Why would many chapters dislike the SW? The only chapter that is mentioned to do so are the Dark Angels, and even there it is more of a friendly rivalry rather than hostility.
I think that you vastly underestimate the power, influence and reference that is accorded to a first founding chapter. The SW are one of the Imperium's oldest and most honoured institutions.

Largely due to either plot armor (either having one character do something ridiculous or the story just says "they win" without much detail) or facing extremely small enemy forces. The Inquisitor Kysnaros story is a great example of the former. They've got GK vessels, an entire chapter of Red Hunters, numerous Inquisitorial vessels, and the story basically just says that the SW fleet shows up and wins and that Grimnar just magically teleports to the Inquistor and kills him.

Did you actually read that novel? He did not 'just magically teleport'. Also, the fact that assaults on Fenris is failed is not due to plot armour (please come with arguments when you make accusations) but due to the fact that the Fang is one of the strongest fortresses in the IoM. Again, did you actually read that novel?

Because many of the High Lords don't see value in the SW's as you have described them? Because most susbscribe to the Ecclesiarchy's Imperial Creed which the Space Wolves had violently denied? Because they've warred with other great institutions of the Imperium?

The High Lords are above the Ecclesiarchy. They hold no more loyalty to the Ecclesiarchy than to the Astartes. And the SW are hardly the first chapter to have pissed off or fought against the Ecclesiarchy. If all chapters that the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition hates would have to be destroyed, there would barely be any Space Marines left. The Astartes just have that kind of independence from other Imperial institutions.

And many a chapter has come to regret such

But all those were relatively minor, not first founding chapters.

they're not just the Inquisiton's henchmen, they can and do do they're own things. However, yes, they are a purpose created chapter that do work closely with the Inquisition, with the most powerful equipment and weapons and the best recruits the Imperium has, are located in the Sol system, are often used to destroy other SM chapters, are the keepers of much of the most dangerous knowledge and objects ever encountered, and the Inquisition has a seat amongst the High Lords. This is why killing Grey Knights is a big deal.

It is not. Officially, the Grey Knights do not even exist. Even most in the inquisition and the High Lords do not know of their existence. So there was actually no one killed. Grey Knights are nobodies. Sure, they are very powerful and work their asses off to save the Imperium every day, but the tragic thing about them is that their secrecy prevents them from getting any recognition or having any influence.
And destroying other chapters is not their job. The GK work for the Ordo Malleus to combat demons. They do not have any other duties. Destroying Astartes is the what the SW were meant to do, and which they are very effective at. Apart from the SW, the duty of destroying renegade Astartes often falls to other chapters with close ties to the High Lords or the Inquisition.

Note that they generally are more subtle about it

Subtle or not, it is very clear that the Dark Angels and other chapters are also killing inquisitors that get too close. The inquisition obviously knows this.

The Inquisition can do anything it wants. Individual Inquisitors may be limited, but the only people beyond the Inquisition, if it truly brings its weight to bear, is the Emperor and his Custodes.

But the Inquisition is made up of individual inquisitors. The Inquisition is not unified, it is a very fractious organisation. Inquisitors frequently fight each other. As mentioned before, there were many inquisitors that supported the SW.

Ultimately, there's a couple thousand Space Wolves with a few thousand Thralls and a big fortress. The Imperium fights and wins larger wars all the time. The only conceivable thing saving the SW's is the fact there's bigger fish to fry or they just haven't quite honked off the right people yet

Of course all of the Imperium could destroy the SW if it wanted to. The problem is: The Imperium does not want to destroy the SW. The SW are far too useful for that. Killing an inquisitor who was hated by everyone anyway is not sufficient reason to destroy one of the Imperium's oldest and most honoured organisations. Nor is pissing of the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy is just not powerful enough to demand such a thing.

The Ecclesiarchy is just not powerful enough to demand such a thing.

I don't think you quite understand how powerful the Ecclesiarchy is. This is the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. It is by its word that planets raise armies to launch Crusades to recover planets that belong to the God-Emperor (which are all planets) or to exterminate some Xeno culture or another (for the God-Emperor commands that "thou shalt not suffer the Xenos to live").

However, like the Inquisition, it is not a unified body. The upper ranks of the Ecclesiarchy do not wish to expend the political capital it would take to snuff the SW because they have bigger issues to deal with.

This is because "plot armor". "Realistically" speaking, if they wanted to, the Ecclesiarchy damn sure could expend the political capital and erase Fenris from the galactic maps, because there is no single group more powerful in the day-to-day lives of the vast majority of Imperial citizens. This would be a Frateris Militia numbering the tens of millions boarding vessels owned by Chartist Captains, faithful captains of the Imperial Navy, Rogue Traders who owe their Warrants of Trade to the Ecclesiarchy, Rogue Traders who are men and women of deep faith, and mercenary captains the Ecclesiarchy can buy off.

... supported by the Orders Militant who's very *job* is the purging of Space Marine Chapters.

The reason none of this happens, of course, is "plot armor". Because GW cannot sacrifice the Space Wolves.

With everyone throwing "plot armor" around... I would hope you realize that the only reason the entire universe hasn't just randomly combusted is "plot armor". The imperium hasn't been taken over by chaos because of it, eldar are still alive because of it, the tau haven't been devoured because of it. It's what keeps any end games from happening.

It's understood that whatever fiction exists is part of the plot, and thus plot armor. So continuing to point out plot armor is downright silly. You should be arguing within the extents of the fiction, which is what 40k is: fiction.

 Lynata wrote:

da001 wrote:It all comes to the "interpretation of the fluff" problem:
-> The background says: Fenris is impregnable.
-> The background says: in one occasion, an inquisitorial fleet bombarded the place with everything they had, and did nothing. Virus bombs, nuclear attacks, laser beams, whatever stuff they invented in 40000 years of warfare. They did nothing. And then they crashed a Battleship into the place, and did almost nothing.
--> Me: oh my... What an amazing defensive technology they have in the 41st millennium.
--> Many people: I think the technology is more or less the same we have today. This must be plot armour.
I respect that opinion, and I know is held by many people. I just don´t share it.

I don't think people are as much opposed to the nigh-miraculous impenetrability of the various famous fortresses, but that the Imperium is apparently unwilling to even try. The only real attempt at large scale warfare to dislodge the SW was Bucharis' assault that saw millions of Imperial Guardsmen lay waste to Fenris for three entire years - and if you think that this is not plot armour of the worst kind, then I don't know what to say (I don't usually link to Lexicanum, but in this case it's a 1:1 Codex quote).

As bombastic as it seems, it is what I would expect from a "futuristic" siege: a mix of stuff taken from real story plus some science-fiction.
1) Hit and run attacks both in space and on the surface.
2) Walls stopping everything. Defenses killing everything that comes near, attackers unable to make a breach.
3) Defensive batteries destroying most landing ships.
4) Supplies destroyed in raids using hidden tunnels.
5) Natives in a continuous state of revolt doing guerrilla warfare.
6) Unconventional warfare through the use of the terrain.
7) An incredible hostile environment.
8) A massive undertake. Bucharis was trying to conquer a full planet.
9) The coming of a third army utterly destroying the army doing the siege.

It is actually properly explained, and not much beyond the things we know have happened in the real war. A low quality army facing an extreme elite army in a strong defensive position, where numbers do not really matter. Thermopylae, Constantinople, Tyre...

Most Black Library books are like "and then the wolves yelled and attacked and pew pew pew all enemies were dead", but if we assume that Fenris is among the most powerful strongholds ever, the Wolves being still alive sort of makes sense.

Giant fortresses and ways to break them are nothing new for the Imperium, and there are forces specialised for this job. Alternatively, even assuming that the SW are that "badass" that there is no way in hell that any sort of ground assault including Titans would have a chance at killing them off, the IoM could simply destroy any and all SW starships and cordon off the world, destroying their interstellar mobility before proceeding to bombard the surface. Let's see how long a Chapter manages to survive without food and raw materials, or without new recruits.
The range of Exterminatus munitions also leaves a lot of options, ranging from cyclonic torpedoes that turn the entire planet into a barren wasteland in a storm of fire, to macromelta charges shattering a world into bits. And if the Fang survives even that, just keep shooting at it. Or withdraw and leave the crippled Chapter to its fate.

True. If the Imperium really wanted to destroy the wolves, there is nothing they can do.

But using an Exterminatus solution is frowned upon. I am not even sure a Cardinal will dare to use it. And the Inquisition was divided in its attack. So it was not an option. In real life, sending an army to take a country is not the same, politically speaking, that nuking it to oblivion

That is how I assume the IoM would deal with the situation in any other case. But, for better or worse (depending on personal preferences and interpretation), the SW retain their "get out of jail free" card, and so no harm will come to them. This would be less of an issue if various writers would just stop letting them push the line. But at this point, I suppose one could say it's too late for even that, and that the milk is already spilt.

Most of the stuff written about the Wolves is... awful. It competes with Ultramarines´ books regarding bolter porn. That is true too. And a pity.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Ecclesiarchy is just not powerful enough to demand such a thing.

I don't think you quite understand how powerful the Ecclesiarchy is. This is the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. It is by its word that planets raise armies to launch Crusades to recover planets that belong to the God-Emperor (which are all planets) or to exterminate some Xeno culture or another (for the God-Emperor commands that "thou shalt not suffer the Xenos to live").

However, like the Inquisition, it is not a unified body. The upper ranks of the Ecclesiarchy do not wish to expend the political capital it would take to snuff the SW because they have bigger issues to deal with.

This is because "plot armor". "Realistically" speaking, if they wanted to, the Ecclesiarchy damn sure could expend the political capital and erase Fenris from the galactic maps, because there is no single group more powerful in the day-to-day lives of the vast majority of Imperial citizens. This would be a Frateris Militia numbering the tens of millions boarding vessels owned by Chartist Captains, faithful captains of the Imperial Navy, Rogue Traders who owe their Warrants of Trade to the Ecclesiarchy, Rogue Traders who are men and women of deep faith, and mercenary captains the Ecclesiarchy can buy off.

... supported by the Orders Militant who's very *job* is the purging of Space Marine Chapters.

The reason none of this happens, of course, is "plot armor". Because GW cannot sacrifice the Space Wolves.

I thought it was stated that the Administratum is more powerful than the Ecclesiarchy, albeit just barely to the point where the two are constantly vying for power over each other (and of course, when Vandire became head of both at the same time, hilarity ensued!)

The Administratum is the bureaucracy that makes the Imperium run. It is the bean-counters and pencil-pushers that ensures a planet's tithe is sent and received, and meets a planet's requirement, and it is the overseer of the Departmento Munitorum that directs the inexhaustible armies of the Imperial Guard.

The Ecclesiarchy, however, commands and controls the very souls of the Imperium's uncounted trillions of people... including those Guardsmen.

da001 wrote:It is actually properly explained, and not much beyond the things we know have happened in the real war. A low quality army facing an extreme elite army in a strong defensive position, where numbers do not really matter. Thermopylae, Constantinople, Tyre...

It would sound a lot better and "less problematic" to me if the focus of the siege's narrative would lie on the local population - but instead, said locals are just bystanders whereas a skeleton crew of SW defenders somehow manages to not only hold their ground for three years, but also to kick butt time and time again, as if they're just opening the doors every now in a while, strut out to kill off a few thousand Guardsmen and blow up their cannons, and then retreat back into their fortress - that's how it reads to my (certainly very critical) eye here. Are we to assume that the Imperial Guard was really this incompetent that all those lasguns, heavy bolters and tanks just somehow missed the Space Wolves instead of, over time, at least causing casualties heavy enough to affect the further efficiency of both their defense and their counter-assaults?
I usually try to take any such fluff stories that sound "a bit weird" not at face value but rather as some sort of idealised account or a legend, but I have a hard time working out how to rationalise this. Aside from perhaps speculating that this is just how it's told amongst the SW, and that they like to exaggerate the numbers when telling the story, true Viking-style. Even so, it is difficult to see the SW in any other light than this if accounts to the contrary are so very rare - as far as I know, the only source that flat out claims "lol they're just making this up" is the comments on their sagas in the Index Astartes series.

(also, I have to take back my earlier comment - turns out the article on Lexicanum is close to the original, but differs on a few details, such as missing to mention that most of the Chapter was away crusading as The Fang was attacked ... sorry, I only noticed the slight discrepancy now as I compared the texts)

The funniest thing is that this example of SW Invulnerability is featured in - get this - a SoB Codex, of all the possible books. That said, if nothing else, this at least suggests that, apparently, all those Guardsmen and Navy officers had no problem being motivated to attack the Space Wolves, in spite of their history and status.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Administratum is the bureaucracy that makes the Imperium run. It is the bean-counters and pencil-pushers that ensures a planet's tithe is sent and received, and meets a planet's requirement, and it is the overseer of the Departmento Munitorum that directs the inexhaustible armies of the Imperial Guard.

The Ecclesiarchy, however, commands and controls the very souls of the Imperium's uncounted trillions of people... including those Guardsmen.

Without the Administratum collecting money the Ecclesiarchy is bankrupt. Without the Ecclesiarchy telling people it's good to pay the Emperor's Tithe the Administratum runs into problems getting money for everything. They need each other, and also try to outmanuever each other for political power. True love-hate relationship there, but so is the rest of the IoM.

The Ecclesiarchy collects its money from the tithes its people bring in every Sunday. They collect taxes separately from the Administratum.

A planet is responsible for its tithe to the Administratum (specifically, the Planetary Governor). An individual person is responsible for his tithe to the God-Emperor directly, through his representatives in the Ecclesiarchy.

 Lynata wrote:

da001 wrote:It is actually properly explained, and not much beyond the things we know have happened in the real war. A low quality army facing an extreme elite army in a strong defensive position, where numbers do not really matter. Thermopylae, Constantinople, Tyre...

It would sound a lot better and "less problematic" to me if the focus of the siege's narrative would lie on the local population -

Funny enough, that would be hard to believe to me. A elite army of superhuman soldiers doing "hit and run" raids? OK. Succeeding thanks to the help of a bunch of malnourished Vikings wannabe that fight with axes and know nothing of what a machine gun is? No thanks.

but instead, said locals are just bystanders whereas a skeleton crew of SW defenders somehow manages to not only hold their ground for three years, but also to kick butt time and time again, as if they're just opening the doors every now in a while, strut out to kill off a few thousand Guardsmen and blow up their cannons, and then retreat back into their fortress - that's how it reads to my (certainly very critical) eye here.

If they ever write a novel, that is the way it would be written. And it would be ridiculous. Constatinople, Tyre... any city who has won a siege against an enemy vastly superior in numbers have done raids. They are needed to any successful defense. You cannot just let the enemy do as he wishes. But to make this raids you use hidden tunnels or something similar to get the enemy off-guard.

Which is exactly the way this siege is described. A net of tunnels throughout Asaheim allowed strike teams to attack where the enemy was unprepared. Some explosives and just five Astartes can do wonders this way. They can kill thousands in any raid, or destroy supplies most needed to survive in such a hostile environment, forcing the enemy army to be constantly changing their positions, or waste resources protecting against an efficient enemy who can attack from any place.

Are we to assume that the Imperial Guard was really this incompetent that all those lasguns, heavy bolters and tanks just somehow missed the Space Wolves instead of, over time, at least causing casualties heavy enough to affect the further efficiency of both their defense and their counter-assaults?

There are many examples in real history. A successful hit and run shouldn´t have a single casualty.

Take the example given for the Long Fangs. Some explosives blowing up a mountain to crash an armoured force behind is a good example. Go though a tunnel, get them from behind, kill some guards, set the bomb, go back home. Not a single clear shot for the enemy.

(...)
That said, if nothing else, this at least suggests that, apparently, all those Guardsmen and Navy officers had no problem being motivated to attack the Space Wolves, in spite of their history and status.

How could it be otherwise?

I like the Wolves, they are like a pet army, so to speak. But they are what they are. Almost nobody in the setting likes them. They actively insult or threat or kill any possible ally around them. Fiercely independent they are.

The first thing Logan Grimmar does when meeting the Inquisition and the Grey Knights in "The Emperor´s Finest": openly mock at the GK, start giving orders as if they were to be obeyed and threat an Inquisitor at the first interruption (quote: "do not make me kill you"). That´s the Wolves. The Ecclesiarchy wants to send some priests? Access denied. They come anyway? The Wolves blow them without warning. There is a short story called Kraken where a single wolf arrives to solve a problem. The locals are enthralled with the idea of meeting an Astartes, until they see him. Does not look as a human, treat everyone around like , cares nothing about the local problems, clearly has his own agenda, smells so bad people cannot stomach getting near... Rude, threatening, insulting, not taking advices (let alone orders) from anyone.

And don´t forget the berserker thing, the werewolf look-alike and those stories about the Wulfen: Astartes that start eating people on the spot, friend and foe alike.

Of course lots of people hate (and fear) them. With a passion. That´s part of their charm.

The Space Wolves are actually the most-popular Chapter amongst the Imperial citizenry. Reason for this being that, when a Great Hunt is called, the Space Wolves go out searching for Russ. Of course, they never find him, but they do encounter some other kind of nasty gribbly from outer space. So they kick the ass of whatever that was, and the people of the local planets, upon which the Space Wolves were doing their kicking of Xeno asses, build statues to them and hold great feasts and parades and name their children Bjorn and Logan and Frika and all these Viking names.

All of the things you posted about the SW is, to many fans, part of their charm. The reason they have been permitted to get away with this, though, is plot armor.

Logan tells and Inquisitor off? Inquisitor arranges for an "accident" to befall him on the field of battle. Erroneous targeting data fed into the orbital bombardment cannons of a battleship. Of course, the ships' captain and gunnery crew are executed for incompetence. The Inquisition cares not.

... this, of course, is not what happens because plot armor.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Space Wolves are actually the most-popular Chapter amongst the Imperial citizenry. Reason for this being that, when a Great Hunt is called, the Space Wolves go out searching for Russ. Of course, they never find him, but they do encounter some other kind of nasty gribbly from outer space. So they kick the ass of whatever that was, and the people of the local planets, upon which the Space Wolves were doing their kicking of Xeno asses, build statues to them and hold great feasts and parades and name their children Bjorn and Logan and Frika and all these Viking names.

All this contradicts other fluff, so I usually assume it is propaganda and nothing else. The Wolves certainly would like to be loved, and in their sagas they are.

But the vast majority of the population knows nothing of the Adeptus Astartes and will run for their lives if they ever see a Wolf. And they do not talk to people, at best they growl at them, they are not "friendly" in any possible sense of the word.

And those that know them are the leaders: imperial governors, nobles, inquisitors, sisters, priests... not the kind of people that enjoy having a Wolf around. They literally show nothing but contempt for any authority. Why would any with power enough to rise a statue honor them after their march? That would immediately cause problems with the Ecclesiarchy... or worse, with the Inquisition.

 da001 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Space Wolves are actually the most-popular Chapter amongst the Imperial citizenry. Reason for this being that, when a Great Hunt is called, the Space Wolves go out searching for Russ. Of course, they never find him, but they do encounter some other kind of nasty gribbly from outer space. So they kick the ass of whatever that was, and the people of the local planets, upon which the Space Wolves were doing their kicking of Xeno asses, build statues to them and hold great feasts and parades and name their children Bjorn and Logan and Frika and all these Viking names.

All this contradicts other fluff, so I usually assume it is propaganda and nothing else. The Wolves certainly would like to be loved, and in their sagas they are.

But the vast majority of the population knows nothing of the Adeptus Astartes and will run for their lives if they ever see a Wolf. And they do not talk to people, at best they growl at them, they are not "friendly" in any possible sense of the word.

And those that know them are the leaders: imperial governors, nobles, inquisitors, sisters, priests... not the kind of people that enjoy having a Wolf around. They literally show nothing but contempt for any authority. Why would any with power enough to rise a statue honor them after their march? That would immediately cause problems with the Ecclesiarchy... or worse, with the Inquisition.

According to their codices, this is the way it is, being Heroes of the Imperium and beloved by people across the galaxy, and is used to support the plot-armor that keeps them alive.

In a world where you have this

You're complaining about space Vikings?

That's Orky. Perfectly valid.

What I love about this thread is all the people asking, "Why hasn't the Ecclesiarchy ordered the extermination of the Space Wolves? The Ecclesiarchy is powerful, the Space Wolves deny the divinity of the Emperor, and they also fought the Soritas!"

Dudes. How many tabletop conflicts have happened between the Soritas and a Space Marine chapter? Obviously that's not canon, but good lord man. A minor conflict like that is nothing to get your panties in a bunch about. If it were, any minor Soritas versus other Imperial forces skirmish would end in a flamer purge! Dawn of War: Soulstorm is of dubious canocity (isn't it?) but in the end, Vance Stubbs annihilates the Order of the Sacred Rose from the Kaurava system. Should he be hanged?

Exterminating a Space Marine chapter for denying the divinity of the Emperor is a very very bad idea and sets an incredibly stupid precedent. If the Ecclesiarchy got rid of every chapter that didn't worship the Emperor, we would have exactly ONE chapter of Space Marines. The Black Templars!

The Ecclesiarchy IS powerful, but not to the Space Marines. They have absolutely zero de jure authority over any Space Marine anywhere in the galaxy. The Black Templars listen to them by choice. The Inquisition doesn't really have any power over the Astartes either. The only Imperial body that the Space Marines answer to, period, are the High Lords of Terra, the regent lords of the Emperor.

Then what of the Inquisitorial and SoB clean sings of certain particularly heretical SM chapters?

SM are allowed to not worship the god emperor much like the Ad Much and their forge worlds don't but there is still a dubious line. Onto SW, what saves them is the delicious glory that is plot armour.

 j31c3n wrote:
A minor conflict like that is nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

Three Orders trying to invade Fenris itself is, in fact, rather major!

 j31c3n wrote:
but in the end, Vance Stubbs annihilates the Order of the Sacred Rose from the Kaurava system.

I'm pretty sure that's just a fan-theory that became "fact" through being repeated so often. The only evidence I've ever heard for it is "a relic employee said so", which is dubious at best. Pretty sure that the winner of Soulstorm is unknown, and all we know for sure is that the Blood Ravens lost.

 j31c3n wrote:
Exterminating a Space Marine chapter for denying the divinity of the Emperor is a very very bad idea and sets an incredibly stupid precedent.

But that's not what they were trying to do. What the Ecclesiarchy were initially investigating was rumours of the Wolves Worshiping "pagan gods". Worship of gods other than the Emperor would of course be a massive concern to the Ecclesiarchy.

 j31c3n wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy IS powerful, but not to the Space Marines.

Tell that to the Chapters that the SoB have purged.

No, the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition can't order the Astartes around, but they're certainly allowed to wipe them out if they see cause for it.

When has the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy unilaterally planned and executed the destruction of a Space Marine chapter? I'd imagine any such action would need to be ordered by the High Lords of Terra. Like how they order around the Minotaurs.

If abnormal worship practices get a chapter purged from reality, then the first to go should be either the Iron Hands or the Salamanders, with their machine worship and ancestor worship, respectively.

 j31c3n wrote:
When has the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy unilaterally planned and executed the destruction of a Space Marine chapter? I'd imagine any such action would need to be ordered by the High Lords of Terra.

Doesn't seem to be the case. With the SoB vs. SW piece of fluff, we see the Ecclesiarchy feely sending in the SoB, presumably to at least forcibly investigate the Wolves, at worst to kill them off. Do you think that the High Lord's approved that action? Because if the High Lords explicitly wanted the Wolves gone or weakened, they would send far worse than three SoB Orders. No, it would seem that the Ecclesiarchy was able to do that on its own, without consulting anyone.

Also, that would be quite an inconvinience. If a Space Marine Chapter suddenly turned heretic mid-conflict and an Inquisitor or Ecclesiarchial leader saw it, do you think that they would have to hold fire and wait until the High Lords said that they could act? Treachery is a major problem in the Imperium, and one they have to stamp out harshly. It doesn't sound right that they'd be forced to go through hoops like that just for Space Marines.

 j31c3n wrote:
If abnormal worship practices get a chapter purged from reality, then the first to go should be either the Iron Hands or the Salamanders, with their machine worship and ancestor worship, respectively.

Ah, but machine worship is tolerated. The Ecclesiarchy has a whole love-hate thing going with the Mechanicus. They don't approve of the Machine Cult, but they have to tolerate it because the Mechanicus is too useful and is officially endorsed by and intergrated into the Imperium. As for the Salamanders, I've never heard that they worship ancestors before. Where's that from? More infromation would be appreciated.

Anyway, in this case, what makes the Wolves worse was their supposed worship of Pagan gods, gods other than the Emperor. The Ecclesiarchy is very tolerant, tolerating the non-relgious beliefs of the Astartes and probably ancestor worship like the Salamanders supposedly do, but worship of other gods is a big problem. That's why the Wolves got "singled-out", in this case.

SM are permitted some deviancy. That being said, it comes to how deviant it is. SM looking at the Emporer as not a god but the greatest human? Alright. Space Marines having some odd obsession with machine? Eh alright. SM that also respect their ancestors (which if you think about it most would likely pay regards to certain previous marines)? Alright. But certain religious practices go too far and the Eeclesiary and or Inquisition then starts to get a little.... trigger happy.

I was mistaken about the ancestor worship. For some reason I thought it was part of the Promethean cult. It isn't.

 Troike wrote:

With the SoB vs. SW piece of fluff, we see the Ecclesiarchy feely sending in the SoB, presumably to at least forcibly investigate the Wolves, at worst to kill them off. Do you think that the High Lord's approved that action? Because if the High Lords explicitly wanted the Wolves gone or weakened, they would send far worse than three SoB Orders. No, it would seem that the Ecclesiarchy was able to do that on its own, without consulting anyone.

And given that the Space Wolves explicitly held them off until they simply gave up, it's safe to say it was not a serious attempt to destroy the chapter.

 Troike wrote:

Also, that would be quite an inconvinience. If a Space Marine Chapter suddenly turned heretic mid-conflict and an Inquisitor or Ecclesiarchial leader saw it, do you think that they would have to hold fire and wait until the High Lords said that they could act? Treachery is a major problem in the Imperium, and one they have to stamp out harshly. It doesn't sound right that they'd be forced to go through hoops like that just for Space Marines.

The Space Marines are the defenders of the Imperium. There is less than one Space Marine for each world in the Emperor's territory, yet it is enough. The destruction of a Space Marine chapter is a HUGE deal. HUGE. The amount of resources needed to replace roughly 1,000 Space Marines, train them, arm them, get them a fortress monastery and navy and all the other things a chapter needs, would have to be staggering to behold. The destruction of a little-known chapter with few official records documenting their existence might be able to be hidden from the High Lords, but the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition going rogue and exterminating the Space Wolves, a founding legion... there would be serious consequences from the High Lords of Terra.

 Troike wrote:

The Ecclesiarchy is very tolerant, tolerating the non-relgious beliefs of the Astartes ... but worship of other gods is a big problem. That's why the Wolves got "singled-out", in this case.

Conceded.

Honestly the importance of marines is dramatically overstated. That being said, you must keep in mind for the inquisitor to destroy a chapter, it involves requisitioning an Ara Ada to help him cleanse it and also likely involves some form of agreement among several inquisitors. A trial briefing arguing the level of heresy or maybe just a bunch of inquisitors agree and beat out opposition.

The Ecclesiary also probably has its own internal conflicts and requires the SoB (whom root out heresy everywhere including in the Ecclesiary) to determine its worth not to mention other executives and any wandering I quisitor that might disagree with the Ecclesiary.

It would be no easy task to kill the space wolves remember they have the FANG the fortress-citadel of the space wolves is one of the greatest bastions of the imperium. Still reckoned the greatest out side of Terra. The fang is clad in Armour of immense thickness and strength and is cloaked by void shields more powerful then those found on even the the most mighty of the emperor's warships . dark shafts cut miles into the mountainside conceal defense lasers that are capable of blasting apart even the most heavily armored spacecraft. and don't for get about there allies they have allot of them and hundreds of ships.

And glorious plot shields!

 Lovechunks wrote:
It would be no easy task to kill the space wolves remember they have the FANG the fortress-citadel of the space wolves is one of the greatest bastions of the imperium.

But on the other hand, it seems the Canis Helix in their geneseed (and the failure of their one succesor, the Wolf Brothers) makes them unable to recruit off Fenris. You don't need to take down the Fang, just kill all other human life on the planet. The wolves will be left without viable recruits and extinct within however long it takes them all to die off.

Ofc, seeing as they're still useful it's not likely to happen for a while. The same Inquisitors who could make their destruction not appear on Imperial news reports can certainly also make their insignificant rebellious actions disappear in the general chatter.

I think what also needs to be considered is that no matter how many slights or even how grievous someone might take those slights the SW are still champions of imperium and have been for over 10,000 years.

If you listed all of their proposed slights against other institutions of IOM in a single book, then you list all of their work against the enemies of the IOM and you fill the rest of the library.

Its the same with every first founding SM faction. You just do not throw that sort of power away.

Has anybody here mentioned that the Fang is, like, one of the eight wonders of the Imperium, or something like that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Fenris' position close to the Eye of Terror makes the Space Wolves extremely important in the fight against chaos.