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I have been having a debate with a fellow wargamer as to whether or not using plague zombies is proxying. I think that as there is no model for plague zombies then any model can be used, obviously it shoudl be accurately represented, be when this is done it should not be counted as proxying. We decided to ask the people of dakka dakka to see what they think.

Ok I am the person who Chaos Rule is saying is saying using plauge zombies is proxying. I think he is representing me unfairly.

Me and him were going to have a battle of chaos vs Elysian Drop Troops and he said no proxying and I agreed. He then said that using cadians as elysians was proxying and I disagreed becuase the difference between the models is so tiny that it doesn't even matter (the difference is that the models have different lasguns and thinner armour).

I went on to say that he can't use cadian troops as plauge zombies because that is proxying. He said that because there is no official model for plauge zombies he could do this in a no proxy game because this isn't proxying.

That is my side of the story that he failed to represent and focused on one aspect of the argument: the plauge zombies.

What you determine as no proxy is between the 2 of you. There are no rules as to what you can proxy. So by RaW you can't use plague Zombies at all as their are no models for them likewise RaW you can't use Cadian troops as Elysian drop troops.

So what you guys agree is up to you. So as to who is right. Well there is no right answer you need to come to an agreement to play the game, if you can't agree then don't play with each other.

I would consider not playing againsther in the future. If you two are worried about whether playing Cadians for Elysians and plague zombies is bad then you're not understanding what the game is really about-pretending you're eight and making pew pew noises over toy soldiers.

Though the difference between the models is tiny there is still a difference so it is still proxying, and the debate about whether or not you can proxy cadians as elysians is resolved. YOU CAN'T. The purpose of this forum topic is to decide whether or not using plague zombies is proxying. Also the difference between elysian and cadian is that the style of elysian armour is completely different, as are the lasguns, and the cadians are much bulkier. The debate about whether or not i can use plague zombies in a non-proxy game is seperate to the debate about whether or not using cadians as elysians is proxying.


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I would consider not playing againsther in the future.

Sorry i am unfamiliar with the term "againsther" could you please define it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat720004a&prodId=prod1050054

I'm pretty certain these are acceptable models for zombies...

twj wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat720004a&prodId=prod1050054

I'm pretty certain these are acceptable models for zombies...

So are you saying that we should decide between ourselves what can be used for zombies, e.g. We could decide that it is unacceptable to use monoliths as plague zombies but it would be acceptable to use cadians as plague zombies.

Using IG as IG is hardly proxying. If you're having issues over the wrong guns or armour for fluff reasons, do remember that they should be wearing the wrong armour and have the wrong guns as the fluff clearly says the munitorum are idiots who get it wrong all the time.

Using anything that looks like a plague zombie as a plague zombie is also not proxying, it may be a conversion but it's not a proxy.

I think you two have missed the point a bit. Issues of proxying are using a stormtalon as a stormraven or a small model to represent a big one or where your opponent cannot clearly understand what each unit it supposed to be. That someone is using an IG model painted to look chaosy is fine, similarly cadians as elysians is cool and only the most anal of TO or opponent would refuse to play against it.

There is also no need to be rude about a misspelled word.

Chaos Rule wrote:
Though the difference between the models is tiny there is still a difference so it is still proxying, and the debate about whether or not you can proxy cadians as elysians is resolved. YOU CAN'T. The purpose of this forum topic is to decide whether or not using plague zombies is proxying. Also the difference between elysian and cadian is that the style of elysian armour is completely different, as are the lasguns, and the cadians are much bulkier. The debate about whether or not i can use plague zombies in a non-proxy game is seperate to the debate about whether or not using cadians as elysians is proxying.

You can proxy anything you like if you want to - you just need your opponants permission.
This is tit for tat - if you allowed him to use elysians, he'd allow you to bring plague zombies.
And if there are no models for a 40k squad, then anything you choose to use instead is proxying.

Sort it out between you. If you can't decide between you, then shake hands and move on.
I'd play two games instead - one against his elysian list so he'd be happy and one another where he uses his normal guard so you'd be happy.

Chaos Rule wrote:

twj wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat720004a&prodId=prod1050054

I'm pretty certain these are acceptable models for zombies...

So are you saying that we should decide between ourselves what can be used for zombies, e.g. We could decide that it is unacceptable to use monoliths as plague zombies but it would be acceptable to use cadians as plague zombies.

Or that it is common sense to use zombies to represent zombies...

@flingitnow we define proxying as using a model/token that is SEVERELY different than another model as that model. As linguatries of blood is saying the difference between elysians and cadians is very small. I am fine with Chaos Rule using cadians as plauge zombies if I am allowed to use cadians as elysians. there is no official model for plauge zombies and I can imagne the models that he uses as plauge zombies being plauge zombies.

I am saying that proxying cadians as elysians is the same as proxying cadians as plauge zombies and that if I can't use my army, then he can't use his plauge zombies.


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twj well Chaos Rule doesn't have any zombies to use. And I don't think that he will buy some for this occasion

lordra001 wrote:
@flingitnow we define proxying as using a model/token that is SEVERELY different than another model as that model. As linguatries of blood is saying the difference between elysians and cadians is very small. I am fine with Chaos Rule using cadians as plauge zombies if I am allowed to use cadians as elysians. there is no official model for plauge zombies and I can imagne the models that he uses as plauge zombies being plauge zombies.

I am saying that proxying cadians as elysians is the same as proxying cadians as plauge zombies and that if I can't use my army, then he can't use his plauge zombies.


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twj well Chaos Rule doesn't have any zombies to use. And I don't think that he will buy some for this occasion

I understand that. From a RaW perspective any models you use that aren't the GW official models are proxying. So ANY model you use for Plague Zombies is proxying as is using Cadians as Elysians. Now as some of pointed out neither proxy creates much of a problem as the models are very similar but you both have to agree or there is no game.

What you guys decide is acceptable is up to you. So if he says you can't use your cadians as elysians he's well within his rights. Just as you are in saying he can't use Plague Zombies. But then I could turn up for a game with 6 Necron Flyers and you could just tell me you don't want to play that game, you have that right too. In a tournament the TO decides what is allowed in a pick up game you have to agree amongst yourselves. Personally if I had an opponent who said you can't use Cadians as Elysians but wanted to use Cadians as Plague Zombies I'd pack up my models and find someone else to play. If they are incapable of agreeing to such a small proxy but are demanding to use an identical proxy I would see no point in engaging with them in anyway.

If you guys are getting hung up on something as minor as this, perhaps you should think about not playing at all.

Seriously... Your going to tell your "friend" that his imperial guard can't be used as imperial guard just because its cadians and not elysians?

You shouldn't be surprised that he won't let you use proxies for the zombies. Your being unreasonable.

 BarBoBot wrote:
If you guys are getting hung up on something as minor as this, perhaps you should think about not playing at all.

Seriously... Your going to tell your "friend" that his imperial guard can't be used as imperial guard just because its cadians and not elysians?

You shouldn't be surprised that he won't let you use proxies for the zombies. Your being unreasonable.

This.

 BarBoBot wrote:
If you guys are getting hung up on something as minor as this, perhaps you should think about not playing at all.

Seriously... Your going to tell your "friend" that his imperial guard can't be used as imperial guard just because its cadians and not elysians?

You shouldn't be surprised that he won't let you use proxies for the zombies. Your being unreasonable.

Think we have a winner.

If you guys are getting hung up on something as minor as this, perhaps you should think about not playing at all.

Seriously... Your going to tell your "friend" that his imperial guard can't be used as imperial guard just because its cadians and not elysians?

You shouldn't be surprised that he won't let you use proxies for the zombies. Your being unreasonable

Thank you! I don't care at all if he proxies his cadians as plauge zombies. I just think that if I can't proxy IG troops as IG troops because of a lasgun difference and a tiny difference in armour then he can't proxy his IG troops as plauge zombies.

I understand that. From a RaW perspective any models you use that aren't the GW official models are proxying. So ANY model you use for Plague Zombies is proxying as is using Cadians as Elysians. Now as some of pointed out neither proxy creates much of a problem as the models are very similar but you both have to agree or there is no game.

What you guys decide is acceptable is up to you. So if he says you can't use your cadians as elysians he's well within his rights. Just as you are in saying he can't use Plague Zombies. But then I could turn up for a game with 6 Necron Flyers and you could just tell me you don't want to play that game, you have that right too. In a tournament the TO decides what is allowed in a pick up game you have to agree amongst yourselves.

yes I understand that it's up to him to determine if he wants to play me or let me proxy my guardsmen, however I'm saying that he's being unreasonable and hypocritical by proxying his models but not letting me proxy my own ones.

Personally if I had an opponent who said you can't use Cadians as Elysians but wanted to use Cadians as Plague Zombies I'd pack up my models and find someone else to play. If they are incapable of agreeing to such a small proxy but are demanding to use an identical proxy I would see no point in engaging with them in anyway.

yeah but we play in a small club and there's only about 4 people to play so not many options. Also I don't think that there will be any local tournaments running and can't be asked to travel for hours to play a few games of 40k

Chaos Rule wrote:
Though the difference between the models is tiny there is still a difference so it is still proxying, and the debate about whether or not you can proxy cadians as elysians is resolved. YOU CAN'T. The purpose of this forum topic is to decide whether or not using plague zombies is proxying. Also the difference between elysian and cadian is that the style of elysian armour is completely different, as are the lasguns, and the cadians are much bulkier. The debate about whether or not i can use plague zombies in a non-proxy game is seperate to the debate about whether or not using cadians as elysians is proxying.


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I would consider not playing againsther in the future.

Sorry i am unfamiliar with the term "againsther" could you please define it.

"against each other." When someone has underwear older then you are, their typing is not always the best.

Plague zombies could just be IG painted grey...

Cadians as Elysians could be Harkonnens or generic paratroop platoon #15,757,555,777,264 of the First Cadian Offense corps, using Elysian rules.


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I am saying that proxying cadians as elysians is the same as proxying cadians as plauge zombies and that if I can't use my army, then he can't use his plauge zombies.

That is fair. But if you're arguing about this, you need to find different opponents.

lordra001 wrote:

If you guys are getting hung up on something as minor as this, perhaps you should think about not playing at all.

Seriously... Your going to tell your "friend" that his imperial guard can't be used as imperial guard just because its cadians and not elysians?

You shouldn't be surprised that he won't let you use proxies for the zombies. Your being unreasonable

Thank you! I don't care at all if he proxies his cadians as plauge zombies. I just think that if I can't proxy IG troops as IG troops because of a lasgun difference and a tiny difference in armour then he can't proxy his IG troops as plauge zombies.

I understand that. From a RaW perspective any models you use that aren't the GW official models are proxying. So ANY model you use for Plague Zombies is proxying as is using Cadians as Elysians. Now as some of pointed out neither proxy creates much of a problem as the models are very similar but you both have to agree or there is no game.

What you guys decide is acceptable is up to you. So if he says you can't use your cadians as elysians he's well within his rights. Just as you are in saying he can't use Plague Zombies. But then I could turn up for a game with 6 Necron Flyers and you could just tell me you don't want to play that game, you have that right too. In a tournament the TO decides what is allowed in a pick up game you have to agree amongst yourselves.

yes I understand that it's up to him to determine if he wants to play me or let me proxy my guardsmen, however I'm saying that he's being unreasonable and hypocritical by proxying his models but not letting me proxy my own ones.

Personally if I had an opponent who said you can't use Cadians as Elysians but wanted to use Cadians as Plague Zombies I'd pack up my models and find someone else to play. If they are incapable of agreeing to such a small proxy but are demanding to use an identical proxy I would see no point in engaging with them in anyway.

yeah but we play in a small club and there's only about 4 people to play so not many options. Also I don't think that there will be any local tournaments running and can't be asked to travel for hours to play a few games of 40k

Firstly what you may need to know is that lordra has not yet played a game against me where he has not proxied. He gives me no warning that he is planning to proxy and i have decided to not alloq him to proxy anything. He once played an game with grey knights where he did not even use a single grey knight model and only about a quarter of the models actually were marines.
Secondly this forum topic was to decide whether or not using plague marines is technically proxying seeing as they have no official model. In my opinion I think that proxying only applies when there is an official model for the unit, so that when there is not an official model any model is technically the correct model to use

Units of cultists are nominated to be plague zombies.

"Plague Zombie" is not a unit rather an option that has no wargear to be shown. Kinda like Abbadon in the BL book can make a unit of terminators better.

Anything that you can agree to being a cultist model is technically a plague zombie as well.

You were playing a friendly casual game right?

I frequently allow friends to proxy models so they can try it before they buy it. I don't generally like proxies armies however, so its something I discuss with my opponent.

You claiming that he can't use guardsman as guardsman is rediculous.

He has every right to not want you to "proxy" zombies if your going to not let him use guardsman as guardsman.

Lordra... Hopefully the other people in your group are more reasonable than chaos rule...

Secondly this forum topic was to decide whether or not using plague marines is technically proxying seeing as they have no official model. In my opinion I think that proxying only applies when there is an official model for the unit, so that when there is not an official model any model is technically the correct model to use

You can think that all you want. At the end of the day if you're not using the official GW model for a unit you are proxying, if you're using a unit with no official model then you are proxying. You and this opponent need to either talk out your issues or agree to not play each other.

In General:

PROXY is using a model or wargear option with VERY CLEAR RULES as something else which has different rules.

Examples:
*An Ork with a Rokkit Launcha as an Ork with a Big Shoota.
*Base of Nurglings as a Ripper swarm.
*A Dreadnought as a landspeeder.

COUNTS AS is using models of similar gear, profile and match the stock model closely as 'stand ins' for a Unit which has different official models or no official models.

Examples:
*Cold ones as mounts for Salamanders using Space Wolf rules for TWC.
*Ork Plastic NOBz converted into Flash Gitz with special snazzgunz.
*GorkaMorka 'DiggaNobs' as Chaos Cultist Allies for an Ork army.
*A Converted Chimera for a Blood Axe Trukk.

Proxies have models and rules and you are using them as something totally different. Counts As usually are trying to fit the model as close to the rules as possible.

If it is human-sized, and generally holding crappy CCW and looks like it could be distinguished from regular cultists, you are probably good. If you dropped like 10 unmodified Tau firewarriors down and said 'Plague Zombies' then you would be Proxying.

The real answer is 'discuss with opponent.'

You are either trolling with this thread, or really really ridiculous. Good luck finding anyone to play you if you are this horrible to play against.

On the other hand, if this is indeed a troll, kudos.

This seems like it is starting to turn into "please side with me to prove to my opponent I'm right" We have all already given opinions and examples. subject A was using imperial guard troops as fluffier imperial guard troops(which is perfectly fine). Subject B has a problem with proxy units(personal opinion but your choice), but uses proxy anyway(sounds hypocritical). This is what I have seen so far.

Firstly what you may need to know is that lordra has not yet played a game against me where he has not proxied.

I have never made massive proxies however. fire warriors as psykers (both small infantry with same bases), rhinos as razorbacks(same chassis), chimeras as hellhounds (same chassis) etc.

He once played an game with grey knights where he did not even use a single grey knight model and only about a quarter of the models actually were marines.

yes I did use a few grey knight models. Brother captain and termies were all GK models. The only difference between marines and normal grey knights are the heads and weapons, which is also a small proxy. Also sometimes when I play other people in the group I don't proxy at all eg. the game of my IG vs a freind's Eldar where I used no proxies at all.

Its not like I proxy a marine as a warlord titan. And it's not like I'm rolling up to a tornament with a full proxy army that is cheesier than gorganzola and expecting anyone to play me.

For you only 'proxy' something when you use an inaccurate model to represent something that has an official model you could be using. 'Counts as' models are accurate models to represent something that has an official model that you could be using. 'Conversions' are using accurate models to represent things that have no official model.

Forgeworld models are not official models. There are no official models for Elysium troops. Its debatable weather or not there is an official model for plague zombies. Its clear the GW intended you to use cultist models as zombies but there is no explicit instruction to do so.

That being said I would treat Cadian models as acceptable 'conversions' of elysium units but would be bothered treating them as zombies. They are wearing armor, something that zombies should not be weaning. Catachan models would be better, and WFB vampire counts zombies are even better (and cheaper) in my mind but I would not prevent my opponent from using cadians if that is all he had.

You are either trolling with this thread, or really really ridiculous. Good luck finding anyone to play you if you are this horrible to play against.

Sorry to say that this is no troll and this a real argument that me and Chaos Rule had about proxying. I have no problems with him proxying at all and am fine, I'm just defending myself and saying that he is being hypocritical.

you are probably good. If you dropped like 10 unmodified Tau firewarriors down and said 'Plague Zombies' then you would be Proxying

just goes to show how bad I am at proxying when I proxied fire warriors as psykers. I understand his annoyance at my proxying.

Chaos Rule wrote:
Firstly what you may need to know is that lordra has not yet played a game against me where he has not proxied. He gives me no warning that he is planning to proxy and i have decided to not alloq him to proxy anything. He once played an game with grey knights where he did not even use a single grey knight model and only about a quarter of the models actually were marines.

Completely irrelevant.

Secondly this forum topic was to decide whether or not using plague marines is technically proxying seeing as they have no official model. In my opinion I think that proxying only applies when there is an official model for the unit, so that when there is not an official model any model is technically the correct model to use

There is an official model. Cultists. Since you nominate a unit of cultists, that's the model you should use.

IMO it's a ridiculous standard to use, but if you're trying to say Cadians are proxy for Elysians it fits.

all zombies are cultists but not all cultists are zombies.

you need to use cultist models as zombies and clip the guns off if your going 110% pure GW WSIWYG

and the way I see it, using cadians as elysians is like using ultramarines as salamanders, all the models are WYSIWYG, so there is nothing saying I cant as it is not proxying (unless you use special units or characters, even then you can buy the model and shave off the icons)

TL;DR = Keep on trollin'

That being said I would treat Cadian models as acceptable 'conversions' of elysium units but would be bothered treating them as zombies. They are wearing armor, something that zombies should not be weaning. Catachan models would be better, and WFB vampire counts zombies are even better (and cheaper) in my mind but I would not prevent my opponent from using cadians if that is all he had.

In Chaos Rule's defence he had converted them with genestealer parts on most of them to make them look a bit like zombies and distinguish them against cultists