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 Ravenous D wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


Here's how to fix tournaments without ban lists:

All awards get a comp score. Weight it appropriately. Comp score is given by the opposing player. Said player has to justify to a judge why the score is given, if the judge feels it is unfair. Overruling results in a forfeiture of gained points by player ( a stick to avoid bad losers gakking someone on comp).

This will encourage people to bring fun lists. Give bonus points for fluff etc.

Someone shows up with a screamer star or a seercouncilstar or 3 riptides or 3 helldrakes or wave serpent spam...they might go undefeated, but they won't win an award.


If this were 3rd edition, the list would include Rhinos. Every edition has something broken. Players just need to deal with it.

Doesn't work.

Points given by opposing players are always abused. If I run screamerstar and bomb all my opponents "friendly lists" I ensure they will not be in the top 10. If I run with 5 friends that all do the same, we essentially just cleared out the top spaces for the best generals which, most likely will be the screamer star builds. The conflict tournaments used that system and they were full of problems, there was one old guy that played in 3rd that didn't understand a lot of the then 4th rules and would bomb people because he felt that your units were "too good".

The only tournament system that works is if they make a banned list, and 0-1 or 0- whatever list for each army and restrict certain combos. Otherwise you might as well kiss the tournament scene good bye because the power builds that will result from this stupidity are going to make for completely unimaginative untactical short games.

It's pretty obvious you didn't read what I said.

No I get it, you want people to judge the fairness of an army that potentially just curb stomped them, then have a judge determine whether each players choice is fair.

What you are suggesting is just a waste of time, naive and needlessly complicated where a simple restriction list eliminates all that needless book keeping. Getting the numbers from game results is one of the biggest problems in tournaments.

Keep it simple stupid.

 Ravenous D wrote:
No I get it, you want people to judge the fairness of an army that potentially just curb stomped them, then have a judge determine whether each players choice is fair.

What you are suggesting is just a waste of time, naive and needlessly complicated where a simple restriction list eliminates all that needless book keeping. Getting the numbers from game results is one of the biggest problems in tournaments.

Keep it simple stupid.

Except that restrictions & ban lists tend to become highly opinionated and more often than not are biased against certain armies.

If Feast goes ahead and bans the Grimoire outright for example, yet leaves Seetstar fairly unmolested, it might discourage a lot of people from considering Daemons at all thereby effectively removing an entire army.
Or Daemon players might in turn bring their hard-counter to Seestar by packing a 'Thirster or Kipper w/Doomstone. Sure the Ld10 Farseer is pretty safe, but those Ld8 Warlocks, (who are the true workhorses of the Seerstar due to their billion or so Augments), will pop at a pretty frightening rate. What happens when Eldar players, (and everyone else with lower Ld characters), bitch about their unit being mostly auto-wiped within a couple turns by the new 'broken' Daemon item?

Do we suddenly just ban Hellforged Artifacts in general or even ban Exalted Rewards altogether?!

"Except that restrictions & ban lists tend to become highly opinionated and more often than not are biased against certain armies."

This my concern as well and I don't want to see it become en vogue. I could definitely see the xenos crowd wanting to nerf daemons, it being their worst counter.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
No I get it, you want people to judge the fairness of an army that potentially just curb stomped them, then have a judge determine whether each players choice is fair.

What you are suggesting is just a waste of time, naive and needlessly complicated where a simple restriction list eliminates all that needless book keeping. Getting the numbers from game results is one of the biggest problems in tournaments.

Keep it simple stupid.

Except that restrictions & ban lists tend to become highly opinionated and more often than not are biased against certain armies.

If Feast goes ahead and bans the Grimoire outright for example, yet leaves Seetstar fairly unmolested, it might discourage a lot of people from considering Daemons at all thereby effectively removing an entire army.
Or Daemon players might in turn bring their hard-counter to Seestar by packing a 'Thirster or Kipper w/Doomstone. Sure the Ld10 Farseer is pretty safe, but those Ld8 Warlocks, (who are the true workhorses of the Seerstar due to their billion or so Augments), will pop at a pretty frightening rate. What happens when Eldar players, (and everyone else with lower Ld characters), bitch about their unit being mostly auto-wiped within a couple turns by the new 'broken' Daemon item?

Do we suddenly just ban Hellforged Artifacts in general or even ban Exalted Rewards altogether?!

Well feast did mention they are figuring out how to cap psykers, Like only allowing 1 or 2 rolls per chart per psyker which would mostly deal with screamstar and jetstar.

People who were happy when *their* armies dominated are the ones calling for comp now etc etc

I only joined in sixth with my Orks, and I'm pretty damn keen on comping stupid gak out of the game.

Stop making nonsense blanket statements like this

ban stronghold assault

Why the hell is this lumped in with escalation? Aside from the superheavy fortress its a damn good addition to the game

And the fort networks, but they are mostly bad so it would be a merciful ban for anyone silly enough to consider them.

I'm pretty keen on the Void relay network myself. Real game changer, for the better IMO

 Dakkamite wrote:

People who were happy when *their* armies dominated are the ones calling for comp now etc etc

I only joined in sixth with my Orks, and I'm pretty damn keen on comping stupid gak out of the game.

As a Tau player, I fully agree. 5 Riptide lists are just as bad as Screamerstar, Wave Serpent Spam, etc. Dataslates were the final nail in the coffin for balance IMO - seriously, a Riptide that doesn't take a FOC, with Broadsides that also don't take FoC? Ridiculous.

As far as tournaments go, this (Comp) needed to happen.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm pretty keen on the Void relay network myself. Real game changer, for the better IMO

Void shields alone are a game changer for 100pts. The void network is just too much at 9 void shields and a 4+ cover save line that makes flamers stupid for 340pts.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm pretty keen on the Void relay network myself. Real game changer, for the better IMO

Void shields alone are a game changer for 100pts. The void network is just too much at 9 void shields and a 4+ cover save line that makes flamers stupid for 340pts.

They relay also has hilarious consequences for your cover saves, don't forget!

I think void shields would change the game way more than D. If you think D was bad, trying going up against any kind of long range firebase protected by 3-9 void shields.

I haven't been able to access the FoB bans page since like the day it was put up. Have they deleted it and back-pedalled?

As a Tau player, I fully agree. 5 Riptide lists are just as bad as Screamerstar, Wave Serpent Spam, etc. Dataslates were the final nail in the coffin for balance IMO - seriously, a Riptide that doesn't take a FOC, with Broadsides that also don't take FoC? Ridiculous.

I feel worse for you than I do for me. Tau players tended to get hated on as though they were taking maximum riptides even if they aren't. I know I'm guilty of doing that myself.

They relay also has hilarious consequences for your cover saves, don't forget!

I think void shields would change the game way more than D. If you think D was bad, trying going up against any kind of long range firebase protected by 3-9 void shields.

If an assault and a shooty army both take void shields, the assault army is the one that gets the real advantage. Not only do we not give a damn that *they* are protected by shields, but going off of RAW (plus common sense) their own shooting against my units would be stopped by their own shields once I actually get into melee range.

Even if the game degenerated a bit into Void firebases, at least the 'alpha strike' is delayed a hell of a lot by these shields, giving the players time to like actually do gak before 9001 manticore missiles rain down on their stuff and blow it to hell.

I admit I'm terribly biased towards melee armies, (as I'd be towards shooty if this was choppyhammer) but I still think that Voids do more good than harm. Network might be a bit much, but I'm too tempted by the idea of Burna wagon + promy pipes to be objective on the matter

i think its a good thing. i think there has to be balance.

this goes back to every comment that has ever been said about the balance of 6th.

There isn't.

Change it.

And the reality is, if a couple of demon players get butt hurt because grimoire is banned, and they are forced to play a different game, then so be it.

will bans and changes just make way for another top tier? Absolutely it will. the reality to it is that this will always happen, but the question that needs to be looked at is:

will the proposed changes to their organizational rules reduce the disparity from the top tier now and the rest of the field?

there have always been great armies, there have always been the best there is, but they weren't unanswerable. there were ways to beat them, and the power level gap was there, but was it really as bad as it is now?

The answer to that question is no.

even at the height of the GK's reign, there were answers and there are plenty of tournament results that backs that up, with GKs being hugely played, but not hitting the coveted 1st place at an equal level.

but the new stuff, the tau, elder, and demons, its just SO FAR beyond the power curve, that there really isn't much that can handle it.

if those changes lower that gap, and narrow it a little more, then my hats off to them for trying.

i mean really, look at it like this. the game right now is so far from balanced and fethed up that no one i know debates this.

so if the game is this fethed up, then try to fix it. i mean, whats the worst that can happen at this point? something else get broken? its not like we haven't been dealing with that since 6th broke.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Why the hell is this lumped in with escalation? Aside from the superheavy fortress its a damn good addition to the game

Because of the "network" fortifications which are more of the same "feel free to ignore the FOC limits and take whatever you want" nonsense as the Riptide/Broadside idiocy. And then half of the new single fortifications have no model, so we can expect endless arguments over whether or not those promethium pipes are MFA or not. I'm not sure I agree with that policy, but I can understand why people would want to just ban the whole book instead of trying to figure out which things from it are reasonable enough to include.

 Dakkamite wrote:
If an assault and a shooty army both take void shields, the assault army is the one that gets the real advantage. Not only do we not give a damn that *they* are protected by shields, but going off of RAW (plus common sense) their own shooting against my units would be stopped by their own shields once I actually get into melee range.

That's assuming that you have a pure melee army with no shooting elements. If you brought any long-range firepower then giving the gunline void shields means that your own shooting is completely negated and you have no hope of killing those Manticores/Riptides/etc before they start dropping pie plates on all of your most important stuff. So it might be a boost to absolute pure melee armies, but it's a pretty big nerf to any kind of hybrid melee/shooting army with a strong melee component.

Sc077y wrote:
i think its a good thing. i think there has to be balance.

this goes back to every comment that has ever been said about the balance of 6th.

There isn't.

Change it.

And the reality is, if a couple of demon players get butt hurt because grimoire is banned, and they are forced to play a different game, then so be it.

will bans and changes just make way for another top tier? Absolutely it will. the reality to it is that this will always happen, but the question that needs to be looked at is:

will the proposed changes to their organizational rules reduce the disparity from the top tier now and the rest of the field?

there have always been great armies, there have always been the best there is, but they weren't unanswerable. there were ways to beat them, and the power level gap was there, but was it really as bad as it is now?

The answer to that question is no.

even at the height of the GK's reign, there were answers and there are plenty of tournament results that backs that up, with GKs being hugely played, but not hitting the coveted 1st place at an equal level.

but the new stuff, the tau, elder, and demons, its just SO FAR beyond the power curve, that there really isn't much that can handle it.

if those changes lower that gap, and narrow it a little more, then my hats off to them for trying.

i mean really, look at it like this. the game right now is so far from balanced and fethed up that no one i know debates this.

so if the game is this fethed up, then try to fix it. i mean, whats the worst that can happen at this point? something else get broken? its not like we haven't been dealing with that since 6th broke.

Okay then let's also ban the following:

Ignore Cover
Joining Riptides
Supporting Fire
Serpent Shields
Blade Storm

Dakkamite wrote:
If an assault and a shooty army both take void shields, the assault army is the one that gets the real advantage. Not only do we not give a damn that *they* are protected by shields, but going off of RAW (plus common sense) their own shooting against my units would be stopped by their own shields once I actually get into melee range.

Even if the game degenerated a bit into Void firebases, at least the 'alpha strike' is delayed a hell of a lot by these shields, giving the players time to like actually do gak before 9001 manticore missiles rain down on their stuff and blow it to hell.

I admit I'm terribly biased towards melee armies, (as I'd be towards shooty if this was choppyhammer) but I still think that Voids do more good than harm. Network might be a bit much, but I'm too tempted by the idea of Burna wagon + promy pipes to be objective on the matter

If the shots originate within 12" of the void shield generator, you're not protected by it. Also, you can't use the relay with vehicles. It definitely benefits "void firebases" more than assault armies, it encourages you just to bring long range (possibly interceptor-skyfire) things that can castle and deploy in one corner. I don't think you realize how silly things might get with 9 void shields on each side of the table without D to clear them out.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Sc077y wrote:
i think its a good thing. i think there has to be balance.

this goes back to every comment that has ever been said about the balance of 6th.

There isn't.

Change it.

And the reality is, if a couple of demon players get butt hurt because grimoire is banned, and they are forced to play a different game, then so be it.

will bans and changes just make way for another top tier? Absolutely it will. the reality to it is that this will always happen, but the question that needs to be looked at is:

will the proposed changes to their organizational rules reduce the disparity from the top tier now and the rest of the field?

there have always been great armies, there have always been the best there is, but they weren't unanswerable. there were ways to beat them, and the power level gap was there, but was it really as bad as it is now?

The answer to that question is no.

even at the height of the GK's reign, there were answers and there are plenty of tournament results that backs that up, with GKs being hugely played, but not hitting the coveted 1st place at an equal level.

but the new stuff, the tau, elder, and demons, its just SO FAR beyond the power curve, that there really isn't much that can handle it.

if those changes lower that gap, and narrow it a little more, then my hats off to them for trying.

i mean really, look at it like this. the game right now is so far from balanced and fethed up that no one i know debates this.

so if the game is this fethed up, then try to fix it. i mean, whats the worst that can happen at this point? something else get broken? its not like we haven't been dealing with that since 6th broke.

Okay then let's also ban the following:

Ignore Cover
Joining Riptides
Supporting Fire
Serpent Shields
Blade Storm

Well if we are going that far let's ban shooting and assault all together. That is even and fair and we just get to stare at each others pretty armies moving around the board.
BRB, Escalation,and Stronghold are what we have. The game is evolving so lets play it. I am not a fan of banning items or groups (go ahead and take a data slate as I will concentrate on the part of your army that counts) but I am in favor of generic Comp. TO's can adapt and limit with comp systems. JMHO