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In the Telepathy Psyker table the Primaris Power states.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 12". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership - the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the Result. Armor and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.

The confusion, stems from wondering if this is a simply Leadership Test on 3D6. If so and lets say you have a leadership of 8. You reoll 12 on 3D6, do you fail and thereby take 4 Wounds?

Yep. That's what it says.

Well no it is not a " Leadership Test on 3D6"

It does exactly what it says...
"Roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership - the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the Result."

Ergo Roll 3d6, get a 15, units LD is 8 so 15 - 8 = 7

While we are on the topic, Do you have to roll to hit with psychic shriek, because it is a witchfire?

I have been rolling to hit as normal.. I would assume so as it is a Witchfire, which is why I have been rolling to hit all this time

deviant cadaver wrote:
While we are on the topic, Do you have to roll to hit with psychic shriek, because it is a witchfire?

Well it requires a roll to hit but it does not have a profile to tell us how many dice to roll to hit.

"Manifesting a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon" (69)

The primary effect of rolling to hit with an assault weapon is the possibility of generating wounds off of a successful hit, as per the Shooting section.

The 3D6 test is not tied to the roll to hit at all.

Ergo you do not need to roll to hit with Psychic shriek.

Well then... That's always nice to hear lol

deviant cadaver wrote:
While we are on the topic, Do you have to roll to hit with psychic shriek, because it is a witchfire?

Yes, but we don't know how many dice we have to roll or what happens when you miss.

There's a long thread on the same issues already, safe to say not everyone agrees that the lack of a profile stops your from having to roll to hit.

Ergo, discuss it in your group rather than the internet.

EDIT:
Found it -> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/555787.page

Not everyone agrees, but only one side was able to show that the rules are functionally broken, and that therefore a suitable compromise is to not to roll to hit, as nothing within the rules for the power state what happens if you miss - technically even if you assume a single dice is used, if you "miss" you still resolve the power, as only to-wound rolls require a to-hit, using the actual written rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not everyone agrees, but only one side was able to show that the rules are functionally broken, and that therefore a suitable compromise is to not to roll to hit, as nothing within the rules for the power state what happens if you miss - technically even if you assume a single dice is used, if you "miss" you still resolve the power, as only to-wound rolls require a to-hit, using the actual written rules.

And that is an assumption, not a conclusion, as the previous thread shows. Nothing was proven by either side despite multiple logic chains linking specific rules. End the end, talk to your opponent or follow the TO's ruling.

SJ

J - no, it was a conclusion. The only rules stating a requirement on to-hit are to-wound. Unless you are assuming that the 3D6-Ld is a roll to-wound - which is a poor assumption, as the roll to-wound is very well defined - then there is simply no requirement to actually hit, EVEN IF you decide to roll only a single dice, instead of the "undefined" number of dice you should roll

This was proven in the previous thread, beyond reasonable argument.

This is YMDC, arguments don't have to be reasonable.

Oh indeed they dont have to be reasonable - the point was that the broken nature of the rules (you are *required* to have a profile to know the number of shots, and no profile is given = game halts) was proven to all but those who chose to pretend that the most specific rules dont apply - "because". There was never a good, rules based reason, jutst "because".

Just stating something was proven in no way actually proves anything, which was well documented in the linked thread. Baring an FAQ or errata from GW, which I doubt will occur since GW "discovered" ePublications, the issue in question will remain unresolved until 7th (if even then).

SJ

100% RAW the power doesn't work, we will never know how many dice to roll and we know we must roll.

Nos and everyone else are arguing RAI or HIWPI.

I've been playing roll 1 dice as it is one power.

I kinda thought about saying, well even if I "MISS" the power still effects you, then I had someone try and do it to me in a tournament earlier this month. 3D6 People, and this guy picks up his dice, rolls a 2 and said on "Dakka" the rules guys had decided that rolling to hit doesn't effect the outcome of me having to roll the 3D6.

I smile and rolled the 3D6, I rolled a 14 and then asked Jim what the leadership was on his unit which was closer then my unit to the one cast the actual power. He laughed and asked "What?" I said well Jimmy boy if you decided that the MISS you rolled was invalid to the result of the power then I wonder how you even target my models, is there not just as much as a chance that you've now randomly targeted something else on the board?

He got a little steamed so we called over the the TO.

The TO asked what he rolled on the required "TO HIT" roll, we told him a 2 with his BS of 4.

The TO explained to Jim that the BS table on the back shows that as a MISS, Jim explained that was only for wounds. The TO asked if he wanted to do something other then "wound" my models? Jim said no, but that isn't the point.

The TO shook his head.

The TO said he had missed, and walked away.

Personally I'd have been fine allowing him to use a power he RAW can't use as long as understood his roll "TO HIT" actually counted as if he was rolling "TO HIT".

Stormbreed wrote:
100% RAW the power doesn't work, we will never know how many dice to roll and we know we must roll.

Nos and everyone else are arguing RAI or HIWPI.

Not 100% true.

The RAW side is stating that the roll to hit is not tied to the 3d6-LD check as it circumvents the normal way of the 'To Hit - To Wound' mechanic.

So RAW we need to roll to hit but do not know how many dice to roll. Also RAW the effect is not dependent on a successful roll to hit so it can be ignored.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
100% RAW the power doesn't work, we will never know how many dice to roll and we know we must roll.

Nos and everyone else are arguing RAI or HIWPI.

Not 100% true.

The RAW side is stating that the roll to hit is not tied to the 3d6-LD check as it circumvents the normal way of the 'To Hit - To Wound' mechanic.

So RAW we need to roll to hit but do not know how many dice to roll. Also RAW the effect is not dependent on a successful roll to hit so it can be ignored.

You can't make it to that point without first rolling to hit. So before anything else we have to roll to hit, we need to know how many dice, if we don't know, we can't roll, thus if we do, we're breaking RAW.

What happens afterwards doesn't matter as you can't use the power.

Although I do find your arguments in regards to the "HIt" or "MISS" not meaning anything interesting and will tell you that our local GW employee house ruled there was no need to roll to hit with this power.

^ My case in point.

SJ

if the power wasnt a witch fire, you wouldnt have to roll to hit...

it is, so you do, when you hit, the effects of the power are applied, when you miss, they are not...

that is OBS RAI, and it is also RAW

pretending a mandatory to hit roll is meaningless, is a house rule... trying to add confusion where there is none regarding how many "shots" you have to define the power for is just that... adding confusion where there is none, you roll to hit, you roll to see how many wounds the power causes using the powers rules.

In other words, go read that other thread that went 16 pages, before we do it again.

 easysauce wrote:
it is, so you do, when you hit, the effects of the power are applied, when you miss, they are not...

that is OBS RAI, and it is also RAW

pretending a mandatory to hit roll is meaningless, is a house rule... trying to add confusion where there is none regarding how many "shots" you have to define the power for is just that... adding confusion where there is none, you roll to hit, you roll to see how many wounds the power causes using the powers rules.

This is incorrect.

Nothing ties in a successful to hit roll with the effects of PS.

Similar to Murderous Hurricane, PS can effect a unit even if you miss the To Hit roll every witchfire is supposed to have (Not that we know how many dice to roll to hit, but it is irrelevant anyway as the 3d6-LD check is not dependent on a successful roll to hit).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
it is, so you do, when you hit, the effects of the power are applied, when you miss, they are not...

that is OBS RAI, and it is also RAW

pretending a mandatory to hit roll is meaningless, is a house rule... trying to add confusion where there is none regarding how many "shots" you have to define the power for is just that... adding confusion where there is none, you roll to hit, you roll to see how many wounds the power causes using the powers rules.

This is incorrect.

Nothing ties in a successful to hit roll with the effects of PS.

Similar to Murderous Hurricane, PS can effect a unit even if you miss the To Hit roll every witchfire is supposed to have (Not that we know how many dice to roll to hit, but it is irrelevant anyway as the 3d6-LD check is not dependent on a successful roll to hit).

As above: easy stop claiming RAW when there is no such rule stating such.

The ONLY time a to-hit roll must be successful, in the rules, is when you are then rolling to-wound. If you disagree - which you do - then follow the tenets and actually support yoru assertion with rules. Page, paragraph and EXACT citation. You cannot do this, as you failed to do so in the previous thread, I just want to make it clear to others that holes in your argument.

J - no, it was proven. RAW, you MUST have a profile in order to shoot an assault weapon - indisputable. IF you do not have a profile, you CANNOT fire that assault weapon, as you do not know the number of shots you must fire - again, indisputable.

PS does not have a profile. Game halts.

Your disagreement, which isnt based (again) on any actual rules - just "dont use the most specific rules just because", is irrelevant to this.

RAW PS is a broken power; however luckily the broken part - how many dice you roll - is entirely irrelevant to the rules stating you resolve the psychic power according to its entry, and as its entry isnt a to-wound roll of any form (it causes wounds; it isnt a to-wound roll. These are two different concepts) resolving the 3D6 effect has no dependency on the to-hit roll

Now you know all this, so your continual denial of the rules is disingenuous at best.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
it is, so you do, when you hit, the effects of the power are applied, when you miss, they are not...

that is OBS RAI, and it is also RAW

pretending a mandatory to hit roll is meaningless, is a house rule... trying to add confusion where there is none regarding how many "shots" you have to define the power for is just that... adding confusion where there is none, you roll to hit, you roll to see how many wounds the power causes using the powers rules.

This is incorrect.

Nothing ties in a successful to hit roll with the effects of PS.

Similar to Murderous Hurricane, PS can effect a unit even if you miss the To Hit roll every witchfire is supposed to have (Not that we know how many dice to roll to hit, but it is irrelevant anyway as the 3d6-LD check is not dependent on a successful roll to hit).

As above: easy stop claiming RAW when there is no such rule stating such.

The ONLY time a to-hit roll must be successful, in the rules, is when you are then rolling to-wound. If you disagree - which you do - then follow the tenets and actually support yoru assertion with rules. Page, paragraph and EXACT citation. You cannot do this, as you failed to do so in the previous thread, I just want to make it clear to others that holes in your argument.

J - no, it was proven. RAW, you MUST have a profile in order to shoot an assault weapon - indisputable. IF you do not have a profile, you CANNOT fire that assault weapon, as you do not know the number of shots you must fire - again, indisputable.

PS does not have a profile. Game halts.

Your disagreement, which isnt based (again) on any actual rules - just "dont use the most specific rules just because", is irrelevant to this.

RAW PS is a broken power; however luckily the broken part - how many dice you roll - is entirely irrelevant to the rules stating you resolve the psychic power according to its entry, and as its entry isnt a to-wound roll of any form (it causes wounds; it isnt a to-wound roll. These are two different concepts) resolving the 3D6 effect has no dependency on the to-hit roll

Now you know all this, so your continual denial of the rules is disingenuous at best.

Long paragraph, but it isn't disingenuous. You're trying to cause wounds to your target.

There won't be one TO or House Rule that enforces a roll to hit that doesnt matter.

It's either gonna be roll to hit or don't bother. It will never be roll to hit and disregard the roll.

Ahhhhhhh this again???????

Stormbreed wrote:
Long paragraph, but it isn't disingenuous. You're trying to cause wounds to your target.

You're trying to equate a to wound roll with the PS leadership test?

Nos, you failed to support your claim in the previous thread. I cited and quoted the exact rules for how Psychic Shriek requires a single roll of 1d6 for To Hit in order for the Wounding effect to then take place. You on the other hand, as always, break the tenets by handwaving your opponent's argument as "wrong" without posting an actual counter argument. Your inability to post a rules supported counter argument is the main reason these threads go 16+ pages of circular bickering.

Your entire argument is that a single FAQ for the Space Wolf codex about a specific Space Wolf psychic power overrides the general rules in the BRB regarding any Witchfire power that lacks a shooting profile. You further state that Psychic Shriek requires a shooting profile in order to work, therefore you can "legally" ignore the required To Hit roll.

The argument you disagree with is that the BRB per RAW tells us we roll 1d6 per attack, we have 1 attack unless otherwise noted, following Assault Weapon rules allows the ability to be used after moving yet does not prevent charging, and Psychic Shriek in no way tells us to step any of those points. No profile is required, because all the information we need to use the ability is listed.

16+ pages of you stating your opposition is wrong without you proving it, per the tenets, with rules. 16+ pages of you claiming your opposition's RAW based argument, which causes no hiccups in the rules, is wrong because you think ignoring RAW is the "correct" way to play it.

Do we need 16 more pages of that nonsense?

Simple answer is: talk to your opponent or follow the TO's ruling. Rolling 1d6 to hit with a miss stopping the attack does not break the game; however, ignoring the to hit roll does break the game. If you agree in your game to skip the to hit roll, that is a house-rule, which is perfectly fine for your game.

SJ

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Long paragraph, but it isn't disingenuous. You're trying to cause wounds to your target.

You're trying to equate a to wound roll with the PS leadership test?

Am not trying, the power reads the 3D6 leadership test can cause wounds with no armour or cover saves.

It's simple. Ask yourself are you trying to cause wounds. Like when you roll to hit. Which RAW you must do.

I'm not saying its a set in stone thing but I'm saying people linking the wounds to hitting will never have the ruling go that way.

It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

Stormbreed wrote:
It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

A Fortuned Eldar and the Swarmlord walk into a bar combat...

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

A Fortuned Eldar and the Swarmlord walk into a bar combat...

Either talk before hand to just accept the rolls. Or. Re roll the fails and successful rolls as the rules require knowing you can't reroll a reroll.