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Stormbreed wrote:
Long paragraph, but it isn't disingenuous. You're trying to cause wounds to your target.

Causing wounds != to wound roll. One is defined very differently to the other.

This has been pointed out, and therefore it IS disingenuous to continue to conflate the two.

Stormbreed wrote:There won't be one TO or House Rule that enforces a roll to hit that doesnt matter.

It's either gonna be roll to hit or don't bother. It will never be roll to hit and disregard the roll.

No, but only for the sake of brevity. Same as a lot of TOs dont enforce the fortun+misfortune roll, then roll everything again. Dont mistake that for not understanding the rules, however.

I have simply told, as a TO, to not roll to hit with PS, as the end result doesnt matter, and might lead people to conclude you roll one dice, when the actual rule for number is broken as there is no profile.

jeffersonian000 wrote:Nos, you failed to support your claim in the previous thread.

That is a lie, retract.it

jeffersonian000 wrote:I cited and quoted the exact rules for how Psychic Shriek requires a single roll of 1d6 for To Hit in order for the Wounding effect to then take place.

No, you made a claim that the most specific rules, for Assault Weapons (that PS is treated as, when it manifest), can be ignored because it is inconvenient to your argument.

You have failed to show that a succesful roll to-hit is required to resolve a psychic power, and you have failed to show a requirement for a sucessful roll to-hit to manifest non-to-wound-rolls. PS DOES NOT ROLL TO-WOUND, therefore the requirement that inorder to roll-to-wound you must first have successfully rolled-to-hit does not apply

You hand wave these failures of your arguments, and claim the other side handwaves theirs? Hypocrisy at best.

jeffersonian000 wrote: You on the other hand, as always, break the tenets by handwaving your opponent's argument as "wrong" without posting an actual counter argument. Your inability to post a rules supported counter argument is the main reason these threads go 16+ pages of circular bickering.

Really? So in the prior thread I did not post exact rules pages and quotes? Any chance you can back up your attacks on my character - not for the first time, I might add - thi time? Or will you follow rule number one and retract yoru bald faced lies and attacks?

jeffersonian000 wrote:Your entire argument is that a single FAQ for the Space Wolf codex about a specific Space Wolf psychic power overrides the general rules in the BRB regarding any Witchfire power that lacks a shooting profile.

Another lie. As you know, as you made this repeated lie in the previous thread, and you were corrected every time

The SW FAQ simply adds support that failing to-hit (veen automatically missing) has no bearing on non-to-wound effects. As in, no matter how many times you lie about this, this is not the core of my argument.

I bolded and quoted, many times for your benefit and others, my exact argument.

jeffersonian000 wrote:You further state that Psychic Shriek requires a shooting profile in order to work, therefore you can "legally" ignore the required To Hit roll.

In order to know how many dice to roll to-hit when firing an assault weapon, you must have a profile. This is stated in the actual rules. You keep ignoring them, handwaving this requirement away, in the hope people will disagree

jeffersonian000 wrote:The argument you disagree with is that the BRB per RAW tells us we roll 1d6 per attack, we have 1 attack unless otherwise noted,

The assault weapon rules state we must follow the profile.

jeffersonian000 wrote: following Assault Weapon rules allows the ability to be used after moving yet does not prevent charging,

Yes, it also allows us to know how many shots the attack gets, by following the profile we are required to have for an assault weapon. Or are you now claiming you dont need a profile when firing an assault weapon? The rules disagree, but it would be interesting to know which rules you are ignoring.

jeffersonian000 wrote:and Psychic Shriek in no way tells us to step any of those points. No profile is required, because all the information we need to use the ability is listed.

Apart from the profile that the assault weapon rules require you to have

I try to avoid ignoring the more specific rules, as I think written rules matter.

jeffersonian000 wrote:16+ pages of you stating your opposition is wrong without you proving it, per the tenets, with rules. 16+ pages of you claiming your opposition's RAW based argument, which causes no hiccups in the rules, is wrong because you think ignoring RAW is the "correct" way to play it.

Another lie, and an attack, AND putting words in my mouth!

jeffersonian000 wrote:Do we need 16 more pages of that nonsense?

No, as I do not intend to engage with your nonsense any further. Reported, and back on ignore as you really do not contribute anything useful to these discussions - jsut repeatedly breaking rule #1, lying about others, attacking their character and other gak. Not worth it.

Stormbreed wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

A Fortuned Eldar and the Swarmlord walk into a bar combat...

Either talk before hand to just accept the rolls. Or. Re roll the fails and successful rolls as the rules require knowing you can't reroll a reroll.

I'm aware of how it works, I'm just pointing out that the assertion that there is no time when a roll doesn't matter is factually incorrect.

what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.


The Swarmlord house rule has nothing to do with this conversation because RAW is easy. Roll all the dice then roll them all again.

This's power doesn't work RAW and regardless of what a TO said to you in private, there is no known TO FAQ or Tournament rules list that says, you roll x dice and disregard the result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

A Fortuned Eldar and the Swarmlord walk into a bar combat...

Either talk before hand to just accept the rolls. Or. Re roll the fails and successful rolls as the rules require knowing you can't reroll a reroll.

I'm aware of how it works, I'm just pointing out that the assertion that there is no time when a roll doesn't matter is factually incorrect.

The 1st roll matters. It is the reason you can't reroll the 2nd roll.

Stormbreed wrote:
what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

So a Get's Hot to hit roll is a to wound roll? Demonstrably false.
And psychic tests are also to wound rolls apparently.
And Leadership tests for Orks with a boss pole.
And Leadership tests for IG with Commisars.

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

So a Get's Hot to hit roll is a to wound roll? Demonstrably false.
And psychic tests are also to wound rolls apparently.
And Leadership tests for Orks with a boss pole.
And Leadership tests for IG with Commisars.

Do you take armor saves against gets hot. Does the rule specifically tell you it can cause wounds.

The rest of your examples cover what they are in the rule itself.

If we disregard the roll to hit, then what kind of power are you playing it As? Don't the shooting rules say "nominate a target" or along those words. If we start down the shooting rules path I see no RAW to skip steps.

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

So a Get's Hot to hit roll is a to wound roll? Demonstrably false.
And psychic tests are also to wound rolls apparently.
And Leadership tests for Orks with a boss pole.
And Leadership tests for IG with Commisars.

Do you take armor saves against gets hot. Does the rule specifically tell you it can cause wounds.

The rest of your examples cover what they are in the rule itself.

Your assertion was that any roll that ends in a wound must be a to wound roll. So you agree that those things I listed are to wound rolls despite the fact that the actual rules (not what you pretend the rules say) have a specific definition of a to-wound roll?

If we disregard the roll to hit, then what kind of power are you playing it As? Don't the shooting rules say "nominate a target" or along those words. If we start down the shooting rules path I see no RAW to skip steps.

Since we can't skip steps, what's the STR value of the hit? How many dice do we roll to hit?

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

So a Get's Hot to hit roll is a to wound roll? Demonstrably false.
And psychic tests are also to wound rolls apparently.
And Leadership tests for Orks with a boss pole.
And Leadership tests for IG with Commisars.

Do you take armor saves against gets hot. Does the rule specifically tell you it can cause wounds.

The rest of your examples cover what they are in the rule itself.

Your assertion was that any roll that ends in a wound must be a to wound roll. So you agree that those things I listed are to wound rolls despite the fact that the actual rules (not what you pretend the rules say) have a specific definition of a to-wound roll?

If we disregard the roll to hit, then what kind of power are you playing it As? Don't the shooting rules say "nominate a target" or along those words. If we start down the shooting rules path I see no RAW to skip steps.

Since we can't skip steps, what's the STR value of the hit? How many dice do we roll to hit?

Please re read thread we all agree RAW the power doesn't work. I'm just not sold that if you roll to ........ Wait for it.......HIT. And you come up with a.............M I S S............. Your ability still goes off.


Im all for either rolling to hit with 1 dice or not rolling at all as I've had it ruled both ways.

No tournament or TO has ever told me, yes roll X dice but ignore the result.

Stormbreed wrote:
The 1st roll matters. It is the reason you can't reroll the 2nd roll.

But the outcome of the roll doesn't matter, you can roll a 1 or a 6 and you still get to reroll, it doesn't affect the game in any way. This is essentially what Rigeld's arguing happens when rolling to hit with Psychic Shriek.

Stormbreed wrote:

If we disregard the roll to hit, then what kind of power are you playing it As? Don't the shooting rules say "nominate a target" or along those words. If we start down the shooting rules path I see no RAW to skip steps.

Since we can't skip steps, what's the STR value of the hit? How many dice do we roll to hit?

Please re read thread we all agree RAW the power doesn't work. I'm just not sold that if you roll to ........ Wait for it.......HIT. And you come up with a.............M I S S............. Your ability still goes off.

Im all for either rolling to hit with 1 dice or not rolling at all as I've had it ruled both ways.

No tournament or TO has ever told me, yes roll X dice but ignore the result.

Sorry - I misunderstood (or didn't see you say) and thought you were discussing RAW. Even then, however, there's precedent for an effect happening even if you miss.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
The 1st roll matters. It is the reason you can't reroll the 2nd roll.

But the outcome of the roll doesn't matter, you can roll a 1 or a 6 and you still get to reroll, it doesn't affect the game in any way. This is essentially what Rigeld's arguing happens when rolling to hit with Psychic Shriek.

Not a good example. Two rules canceling each other is not the same as ignoring a to hit roll to automatically apply an effect.

SJ

Good example or not it still disproves this claim:

Stormbreed wrote:
Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

Which is why I posted it.

None of the arguments that the power isnt tied to the hit roll matter, because that is made up.

It is a witchfire, you are required RAW to roll to hit.

You can argue how many dice do you roll? Well the profile doesn't state how many.

That in no way makes the RAW that you must roll to hit with a witchfire power invalid, if they intended for it not to roll to hit it would have been a malediction...

So RAW there is an impasse in how many dice to roll to hit, as it is not explicitly stated but you are required to roll to hit.

Failing to roll to hit is breaking raw.

Talk to the TO or your opponent before the game begins to agree to how it works. Keep in mind it is a primaris power, so its not supposed to be the "best power" in the discipline.

blaktoof wrote:
Keep in mind it is a primaris power, so its not supposed to be the "best power" in the discipline.

If only that were true...

Stormbreed wrote:
what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

A "to wound roll" is a defined thing in the rulebook. No matter what you think is "super special" about the 3D6 effect, while it causes wounds, and dice are involved, it is NOT a to-wound roll. THis is a fact.

For it to be a to-wound roll requires it to be comparing S vs T, etc. This is clear from the rulebook. As such, no matter how many patronising ways you have of writing "M I S S", RAW there is no requirement for a [b]successful[/b[ roll to-hit for you to be able to carry on resolving the power - in this case rolling 3D6 - Ld. There just isnt one.

PLease argue *rules*, or make it clear when you are making RAI / HYWPI style arguments.

We are not talking about a To Wound roll, we are talking about a To Hit roll. Basic rules tell us each model may make 1 attack unless otherwise noted, and rolls 1d6 To Hit per attack. Assault Weapons, a more specific rule, tells us a weapon with multiple attacks will be noted. As Psychic Shriek does not denote multiple attacks, the more specific rule does not conflict with the basic rule. Without direction to roll multiple attacks, we roll for 1 attack. If that To Hit roll is successful, we then are allowed to move on to wounding, and as seen in the entry under Psychic Shriek, wound with this ability follows a specific format that is different from normal shooting attacks.

To Hit and To Wound are not the same thing.

SJ

blaktoof wrote:
None of the arguments that the power isnt tied to the hit roll matter, because that is made up.

Well, no, it isnt made up, as you havent described the argument.

The argument is that passing or failing your to hit has no effect on your ability to roll the 3D6 effect. This argument is 100% correct, rule-less arguments from others being safely ignored.

blaktoof wrote:It is a witchfire, you are required RAW to roll to hit.

Never stated otherwise. Stated this, repeatedly.

blaktoof wrote:You can argue how many dice do you roll? Well the profile doesn't state how many.

Agreed - you need a profile to know how many dice to roll.

blaktoof wrote:That in no way makes the RAW that you must roll to hit with a witchfire power invalid, if they intended for it not to roll to hit it would have been a malediction...

Never disagreed with this.

blaktoof wrote:So RAW there is an impasse in how many dice to roll to hit, as it is not explicitly stated but you are required to roll to hit.

Failing to roll to hit is breaking raw.

Again, agreed. Have pointed out that an acceptable houserule - if you want the primaris power to be useful, at all, an acceptbale houserule given precedent AND the RAW regarding the 3D6 effect, is to not bother with the roll to-hit. Again this being a hosuerule is not in dispute

KTalk to the TO or your opponent before the game begins to agree to how it works. Keep in mind it is a primaris power, so its not supposed to be the "best power" in the discipline.

The OP only wanted to know how to resolve the wounds damage on a 3d6 roll.

Answer: it breaks before you get there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

A "to wound roll" is a defined thing in the rulebook. No matter what you think is "super special" about the 3D6 effect, while it causes wounds, and dice are involved, it is NOT a to-wound roll. THis is a fact.

For it to be a to-wound roll requires it to be comparing S vs T, etc. This is clear from the rulebook. As such, no matter how many patronising ways you have of writing "M I S S", RAW there is no requirement for a [b]successful[/b[ roll to-hit for you to be able to carry on resolving the power - in this case rolling 3D6 - Ld. There just isnt one.

PLease argue *rules*, or make it clear when you are making RAI / HYWPI style arguments.

I clarified this was a HYWPI discussion from the start as RAW you can never use the power.

I agree he power is amazing so I will be rolling to hit to be a nice guy, unless I'm at my LGS where it's been ruled you do not roll to hit.

Sorry this is a little late. rigeld, you forgot dangerous terrain on your list of "to wound" rolls.

 Happyjew wrote:
Sorry this is a little late. rigeld, you forgot dangerous terrain on your list of "to wound" rolls.

Damn. Knew I forgot something.

edit: Stormbreed - since you've asserted that any roll that ends in a wound is a to-wound roll (HYWPI, not RAW) do you force models that re-roll failed to wound rolls to reroll successful dangerous terrain tests, etc.?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Sorry this is a little late. rigeld, you forgot dangerous terrain on your list of "to wound" rolls.

Damn. Knew I forgot something.

edit: Stormbreed - since you've asserted that any roll that ends in a wound is a to-wound roll (HYWPI, not RAW) do you force models that re-roll failed to wound rolls to reroll successful dangerous terrain tests, etc.?

I never asserted anything. I said that you roll a leadership test to see how many wounds you cause. What do you roll the leadership to cause when you play?

I see no RAW to make them re roll dangerous terrain tests, not sure why you even need to ask that question maybe make a new thread if you see a reason to do so.

Stormbreed wrote:
I never asserted anything. I said that you roll a leadership test to see how many wounds you cause.

Which is completely different than a To Wound roll... (To Wound rolls are dependent on To Hit rolls, the mechanic in PS is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll because it is not tied to that To Hit roll at all).

Stormbreed wrote:what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me[b]. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Sorry this is a little late. rigeld, you forgot dangerous terrain on your list of "to wound" rolls.

Damn. Knew I forgot something.

edit: Stormbreed - since you've asserted that any roll that ends in a wound is a to-wound roll (HYWPI, not RAW) do you force models that re-roll failed to wound rolls to reroll successful dangerous terrain tests, etc.?

I never asserted anything. I said that you roll a leadership test to see how many wounds you cause. What do you roll the leadership to cause when you play?

I see no RAW to make them re roll dangerous terrain tests, not sure why you even need to ask that question maybe make a new thread if you see a reason to do so.

You did say that it was a to wound roll. I even bolded it above.

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Sorry this is a little late. rigeld, you forgot dangerous terrain on your list of "to wound" rolls.

Damn. Knew I forgot something.

edit: Stormbreed - since you've asserted that any roll that ends in a wound is a to-wound roll (HYWPI, not RAW) do you force models that re-roll failed to wound rolls to reroll successful dangerous terrain tests, etc.?

I never asserted anything. I said that you roll a leadership test to see how many wounds you cause. What do you roll the leadership to cause when you play?

I see no RAW to make them re roll dangerous terrain tests, not sure why you even need to ask that question maybe make a new thread if you see a reason to do so.

Yes you did - you said it sounds lie a to-wound roll to you. Except it isnt, as a to-wound roll is a specific "thing"

You and jeffersonian are both making the same error - that of assuming that just because you are causing wounds, that yo uare making a to-wound roll and therefore have to have a successful to-hit roll.

Of course, this isnt at all true.

I've made no such error. At no point have I stated To Wound is reliant on To Hit. Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks. In the case of Psychic Shriek, wounding is determined by a "3d6-Ld" mechanic.

SJ

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:what does the failed leadership cause? It actually tells you in the power. So I'm rolling dice to cause wounds. Sounds like a to wound roll to me[b]. Is it a super special one, sure, but it is still rolling dice with the negative effect being wounds.

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Sorry this is a little late. rigeld, you forgot dangerous terrain on your list of "to wound" rolls.

Damn. Knew I forgot something.

edit: Stormbreed - since you've asserted that any roll that ends in a wound is a to-wound roll (HYWPI, not RAW) do you force models that re-roll failed to wound rolls to reroll successful dangerous terrain tests, etc.?

I never asserted anything. I said that you roll a leadership test to see how many wounds you cause. What do you roll the leadership to cause when you play?

I see no RAW to make them re roll dangerous terrain tests, not sure why you even need to ask that question maybe make a new thread if you see a reason to do so.

You did say that it was a to wound roll. I even bolded it above.

Oh you mean i said "It sounds like" which since you're rolling and that roll can cause wounds, yea I think it does SOUND LIKE a to wound roll. Weird that you don't. Sounding like something doesn't equal being something.

Witchfires are shooting attacks and if we're gonna disregard one or more of those rules we may as well disregard the target option as well.

Or do a suitable exception as the power doesn't work anyways.
a) Don't roll to hit
b) Roll to hit

Yep and those wounds are not reliant on a "successful to-Hit"

Stormbreed wrote:
Oh you mean i said "It sounds like" which since you're rolling and that roll can cause wounds, yea I think it does SOUND LIKE a to wound roll. Weird that you don't. Sounding like something doesn't equal being something.

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Long paragraph, but it isn't disingenuous. You're trying to cause wounds to your target.

You're trying to equate a to wound roll with the PS leadership test?

Am not trying, the power reads the 3D6 leadership test can cause wounds with no armour or cover saves.

It's simple. Ask yourself are you trying to cause wounds. Like when you roll to hit. Which RAW you must do.

I'm not saying its a set in stone thing but I'm saying people linking the wounds to hitting will never have the ruling go that way.

It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

You go ahead and try and say you weren't calling it a to wound roll - your statements in the thread show how dishonest that is.
I asked if you were trying to equate them and you answered you weren't trying, the test causes wounds.

It's proven that rolls that cause wounds are not always linked to hitting. You're trying to assert that they are. There's literally no basis for your stance.

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Oh you mean i said "It sounds like" which since you're rolling and that roll can cause wounds, yea I think it does SOUND LIKE a to wound roll. Weird that you don't. Sounding like something doesn't equal being something.

Stormbreed wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Long paragraph, but it isn't disingenuous. You're trying to cause wounds to your target.

You're trying to equate a to wound roll with the PS leadership test?

Am not trying, the power reads the 3D6 leadership test can cause wounds with no armour or cover saves.

It's simple. Ask yourself are you trying to cause wounds. Like when you roll to hit. Which RAW you must do.

I'm not saying its a set in stone thing but I'm saying people linking the wounds to hitting will never have the ruling go that way.

It will always be. You don't need to roll. Or you do. Never you do need to roll but it doesn't matter.

You go ahead and try and say you weren't calling it a to wound roll - your statements in the thread show how dishonest that is.
I asked if you were trying to equate them and you answered you weren't trying, the test causes wounds.

It's proven that rolls that cause wounds are not always linked to hitting. You're trying to assert that they are. There's literally no basis for your stance.

Eh, again I told you what the power says, I told what it causes and I even said "I'm not saying as a set in stone thing" , but clearly something is causing those wounds, and since its a witchfire and we must roll to hit, and follow shooting rules, it bares reason to believe a miss on this shooting attack would in fact, miss.