Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks.

This is irrelevant as Blast markers and templates specifically tell you they do not need to roll To Hit.

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit, Instead..." (33)

It specifically tells you they do not need to roll To Hit and you use this method instead.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks.

This is irrelevant as Blast markers and templates specifically tell you they do not need to roll To Hit.

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit, Instead..." (33)

It specifically tells you they do not need to roll To Hit and you use this method instead.

Yep, just like Witchfire powers require a successful To Hit roll to apply their effect. We actually need specific permission to bypass the To Hit roll, such as the already mention SW FAQ or Blast Marks or Templates or Nova powers or Beam powers, etc.

Psychic Shriek has no specific exemption from rolling To Hit, nor does it have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks.

This is irrelevant as Blast markers and templates specifically tell you they do not need to roll To Hit.

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit, Instead..." (33)

It specifically tells you they do not need to roll To Hit and you use this method instead.

Yep, just like Witchfire powers require a successful To Hit roll to apply their effect. We actually need specific permission to bypass the To Hit roll, such as the already mention SW FAQ or Blast Marks or Templates or Nova powers or Beam powers, etc.

Psychic Shriek has no specific exemption from rolling To Hit, nor does it have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss.

SJ

Good points SJ. Maybe everyone else should digest your posts instead of trying to post lawyer everything storm breed is writing.

Wait if they ignore your posts and make lots of posts about storm breed maybe everyone else will ignore them too and they can still blissfully think a witch fire ability can ignore a hit roll.

Good work SJ and storm.

Sho off wrote:
Good points SJ. Maybe everyone else should digest your posts instead of trying to post lawyer everything storm breed is writing.

Wait if they ignore your posts and make lots of posts about storm breed maybe everyone else will ignore them too and they can still blissfully think a witch fire ability can ignore a hit roll.

Good work SJ and storm.

I have SJ on ignore so I have no idea what he's said previously, but Storm was arguing a completely different point.
SJ in the past has failed to actually cite rules (despite his assurances that he has) and is convinced that Psychic Shriek actually works RAW (despite the fact that he's been shown evidence that it does not) because... well I'm not sure why. But his stance literally ignores rules and he refuses to accept it.

And I'm not "post lawyering" I'm holding people accountable for what they said. You do understand the difference, right?

rigeld2 wrote:

Sho off wrote:
Good points SJ. Maybe everyone else should digest your posts instead of trying to post lawyer everything storm breed is writing.

Wait if they ignore your posts and make lots of posts about storm breed maybe everyone else will ignore them too and they can still blissfully think a witch fire ability can ignore a hit roll.

Good work SJ and storm.

I have SJ on ignore so I have no idea what he's said previously, but Storm was arguing a completely different point.
SJ in the past has failed to actually cite rules (despite his assurances that he has) and is convinced that Psychic Shriek actually works RAW (despite the fact that he's been shown evidence that it does not) because... well I'm not sure why. But his stance literally ignores rules and he refuses to accept it.

And I'm not "post lawyering" I'm holding people accountable for what they said. You do understand the difference, right?

My point was asking you if you consider rolling dice with the intent to wound the same as "rolling to wound".

I never stated it was the same rolling to wound as in the BRB under shooting however it does stand to reason that since we have to follow shooing rules for this ability to work what so ever (granted it doesn't) IF you are rolling to cause wounds in any way shape or forum WHILE USING THIS POWER you are simply following the correct order of operations for shooting.

There is no special permission for this rule to ignore the "need to hit" rule that other rules have.
There is only one way to actually cause the wounds, which is to use the power which is, "A Shooting Attack"

The small box on page 12 of the BRB has a quick reference. It says 2. Hit, Roll 1 Dice for each shot fired. (1 power 1 shot?)

Stormbreed wrote:
My point was asking you if you consider rolling dice with the intent to wound the same as "rolling to wound".

Absolutely not. I don't take a defined BRB term and apply it to something else willy-nilly.

I never stated it was the same rolling to wound as in the BRB under shooting however it does stand to reason that since we have to follow shooing rules for this ability to work what so ever (granted it doesn't) IF you are rolling to cause wounds in any way shape or forum WHILE USING THIS POWER you are simply following the correct order of operations for shooting.

Um. No - you're resolving the power. You are not rolling to wound. Since that's a defined brb process and all. And you may not have outright stated it, but saying you never implied it (heavily) is flatly dishonest. I've quoted two of your posts where you're doing your best to say it but not say it. It's like saying "No I didn't eat that cookie." while not saying "I ate every cookie and that's the only one that's left."

There is no special permission for this rule to ignore the "need to hit" rule that other rules have.

There's also no requirement to actually hit.

There is only one way to actually cause the wounds, which is to use the power which is, "A Shooting Attack"

... and?

The small box on page 12 of the BRB has a quick reference. It says 2. Hit, Roll 1 Dice for each shot fired. (1 power 1 shot?)

... Seriously? Now you're saying the power works as written? How about you go read the thread that was linked and not waste my time with invalidated arguments. Thanks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
My point was asking you if you consider rolling dice with the intent to wound the same as "rolling to wound".

Absolutely not. I don't take a defined BRB term and apply it to something else willy-nilly.

I never stated it was the same rolling to wound as in the BRB under shooting however it does stand to reason that since we have to follow shooing rules for this ability to work what so ever (granted it doesn't) IF you are rolling to cause wounds in any way shape or forum WHILE USING THIS POWER you are simply following the correct order of operations for shooting.

Um. No - you're resolving the power. You are not rolling to wound. Since that's a defined brb process and all. And you may not have outright stated it, but saying you never implied it (heavily) is flatly dishonest. I've quoted two of your posts where you're doing your best to say it but not say it. It's like saying "No I didn't eat that cookie." while not saying "I ate every cookie and that's the only one that's left."

There is no special permission for this rule to ignore the "need to hit" rule that other rules have.

There's also no requirement to actually hit.

There is only one way to actually cause the wounds, which is to use the power which is, "A Shooting Attack"

... and?

The small box on page 12 of the BRB has a quick reference. It says 2. Hit, Roll 1 Dice for each shot fired. (1 power 1 shot?)

... Seriously? Now you're saying the power works as written? How about you go read the thread that was linked and not waste my time with invalidated arguments. Thanks.

So what do you call it?

Rolling to tickle?
Step 1 "Roll 3 D6" (Yep you rolled the dice)
Step 2 Subtract the leadership
Step 3 Whats left over are they ..... Wounds you cause.....

Sounds like you rolled with intent to wound to me. Just like in the "SHOOTING PHASE" which is what this spell is, a SHOOTING attack.

You're rolling dice with the intent to wound. Those dice are being rolled and based on their result, you may cause wounds.

The requirement to hit is based on the fact your are using a SHOOTING attack, if you miss, you MISS.

You can't create the wounds by saying you're not following the shooting rules, you have to follow the shooting rules because it is a shooting attack. Its not a blessing or a malediction, it is a shooting attack and has to follow those rules.

Page 12 quick reference just brought me back to thinking, why not roll to hit and make all our lives easier. I'm not claiming the rule works, but everything we can add helps, why not throw that in there. Maybe it will open up other lines of thinking for those reading this thread (such as SHO OFF) saying "Damn these people are crazy"!

I honestly don't want to fight with you Rigeld2 , I promise you won't find a tournament that has a "House Rule" saying "On the powers PS and Puppet Master you must roll to hit but you can disregard the result as it doesn't matter"
This isn't about RAW, RAW this power doesn't work unless we look outside the box, just a smidge!

Stormbreed wrote:


Sounds like you rolled with intent to wound to me.

So you consider a dangerous terrain test a roll to wound? What about a psychic test or daemonic instability tests? After all they can have wounds as their result.

Stormbreed wrote:
So what do you call it?

Resolving Psychic Shriek. Since, you know, that's what it is.

Rolling to tickle?
Step 1 "Roll 3 D6" (Yep you rolled the dice)
Step 2 Subtract the leadership
Step 3 Whats left over are they ..... Wounds you cause.....

Sounds like you rolled with intent to wound to me. Just like in the "SHOOTING PHASE" which is what this spell is, a SHOOTING attack.

You're rolling dice with the intent to wound. Those dice are being rolled and based on their result, you may cause wounds.

So wait - are you actually saying that any roll that could cause a wound is a to wound roll? So rolling To Hit with a plasma weapon is a roll to wound? I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, but you keep saying "I'm not saying that" and then you come out and say things like this.

The requirement to hit is based on the fact your are using a SHOOTING attack, if you miss, you MISS.

Yes, I'm not allowed to roll to wound or apply any effects that require a hit if I miss.
I'm doing neither so you CAPS and YELLING aren't relevant.

You can't create the wounds by saying you're not following the shooting rules, you have to follow the shooting rules because it is a shooting attack. Its not a blessing or a malediction, it is a shooting attack and has to follow those rules.

I am following those rules. Every one that applies.

Page 12 quick reference just brought me back to thinking, why not roll to hit and make all our lives easier. I'm not claiming the rule works, but everything we can add helps, why not throw that in there. Maybe it will open up other lines of thinking for those reading this thread (such as SHO OFF) saying "Damn these people are crazy"!

Because you're not helping by presenting half of the discussion.

I honestly don't want to fight with you Rigeld2 , I promise you won't find a tournament that has a "House Rule" saying "On the powers PS and Puppet Master you must roll to hit but you can disregard the result as it doesn't matter"
This isn't about RAW, RAW this power doesn't work unless we look outside the box, just a smidge!

You promise me that? Are you really sure? For the local tournament I was going to suggest exactly that. And I'm not "fighting" with you.

Sho - most have read, and responded to at least some of, jeffersonians points. Sadly, they neither cite applicable rules, nor address the rules presented by others in any logical way. They're simply non arguments, and continuing to try to argue against them is a non starter. Hence on ignore.

Storm - we've thought outside the box, which is that discarding the proven irrelevan part - the to hit has no bearing on your ability to resolve the power - makes the most sense here. Why try to fix something broken, which when following actual, non made up rules had no effect anyway?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks.

This is irrelevant as Blast markers and templates specifically tell you they do not need to roll To Hit.

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit, Instead..." (33)

It specifically tells you they do not need to roll To Hit and you use this method instead.

Yep, just like Witchfire powers require a successful To Hit roll to apply their effect. We actually need specific permission to bypass the To Hit roll, such as the already mention SW FAQ or Blast Marks or Templates or Nova powers or Beam powers, etc.

Psychic Shriek has no specific exemption from rolling To Hit, nor does it have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss.

SJ

(Emphasis mine).
It does not have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss because it does not need it.

Indeed, which is another area j has simply made rules up out of whole cloth. You are told to resolve the power, and barring the actual rules requiring to hit in order to wound, there is no further requirement placed before you can roll the 3D6.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks.

This is irrelevant as Blast markers and templates specifically tell you they do not need to roll To Hit.

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit, Instead..." (33)

It specifically tells you they do not need to roll To Hit and you use this method instead.

Yep, just like Witchfire powers require a successful To Hit roll to apply their effect. We actually need specific permission to bypass the To Hit roll, such as the already mention SW FAQ or Blast Marks or Templates or Nova powers or Beam powers, etc.

Psychic Shriek has no specific exemption from rolling To Hit, nor does it have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss.

SJ

(Emphasis mine).
It does not have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss because it does not need it.

I'll bite. What permission does Psychic Shriek have that allows it to ignore a miss?

Pages 13 and 14 the BRB advises us that a Shooting attack needs to hit a target before it can damage the target, per the "Roll To Hit" and "Roll To Wound" sections on those pages. Page 69 advises us that non-subtype Witchfire powers are Shooting attacks (2nd paragraph under "Witchfire"). Page 423, under Primis Power, "Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire power ..." The rule provide on page 423 on how Psychic Shriek wounds a target does appear to replace the "Roll To Wound" rules with a 3d6-Ld instead of S vs T as detailed on page 14. These points show a logic chain detailing why a To Hit roll is required, why a hit is needed to move on to wounding, and how Psychic Shriek goes about wounding.

Please be so kind as to show a similar chain of logic that supports your claim.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Blast markers and templates cause wounds using a completely different mechanic from regular shooting attacks.

This is irrelevant as Blast markers and templates specifically tell you they do not need to roll To Hit.

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit, Instead..." (33)

It specifically tells you they do not need to roll To Hit and you use this method instead.

Yep, just like Witchfire powers require a successful To Hit roll to apply their effect. We actually need specific permission to bypass the To Hit roll, such as the already mention SW FAQ or Blast Marks or Templates or Nova powers or Beam powers, etc.

Psychic Shriek has no specific exemption from rolling To Hit, nor does it have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss.




SJ

(Emphasis mine).
It does not have specific permission to apply its effect on a miss because it does not need it.

I'll bite. What permission does Psychic Shriek have that allows it to ignore a miss?

Pages 13 and 14 the BRB advises us that a Shooting attack needs to hit a target before it can damage the target, per the "Roll To Hit" and "Roll To Wound" sections on those pages. Page 69 advises us that non-subtype Witchfire powers are Shooting attacks (2nd paragraph under "Witchfire"). Page 423, under Primis Power, "Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire power ..." The rule provide on page 423 on how Psychic Shriek wounds a target does appear to replace the "Roll To Wound" rules with a 3d6-Ld instead of S vs T as detailed on page 14. These points show a logic chain detailing why a To Hit roll is required, why a hit is needed to move on to wounding, and how Psychic Shriek goes about wounding.

Please be so kind as to show a similar chain of logic that supports your claim.

SJ

Seems logical to follow SJ. I can see the logic flow and can understand.

To sum it up, psychic shriek is a witch fire, and it states in the witch fire rules it is a shooting attack and requires a roll to hit.

You cannot move onto resolving a witch fire power without first rolling to hit.

Maybe these guys have the wrong people on ignore?

I do agree this power is broken RAW as there is no shooting profile. Witchfire rules state to treat a power with no profile as an assault type. It would really clear things up if it said assault 1 .

The authors probably had this argument when writing the rules, but agreed people can't be that silly. It's clearly a Witchfire and we said you have to roll to hit.

It doesn't roll To Wound so it does not need a successful To Hit roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It doesn't roll To Wound so it does not need a successful To Hit roll.

A Witchfire power must roll to hit as per rules. You cannot ignore that. Unless you plan to break RAW. End.

Do not even consider resolving he power yet. Break it down simply. Do not even think about psychic shriek yet.

Witchfire spell = treat like a shooting attack. Rules for Witchfire state roll to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rules for those who are confused about a Witchfire.


As I a newer here hopefully this isn't an issue with me posting this here. If it is sorry.

“WITCHFIRE
Witchfire powers aer manifested during the Psyker’s Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks. Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon (unless otherwise noted). A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a Blast or Large Blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a Template weapon, which hits automatically. Saves can be taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack.

The Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point), cannot be locked in combat, must not have Run in the Shooting phase and must shoot at the same target as his unit, if he wishes to manifest witchfire. In the same way, if a Psyker targets a unit with witchfire, then he and his unit can only charge that target in the ensuing Assault phase. Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack, a Psyker embarked on a vehicle can target an enemy outside that vehicle by using a Fire Point.

Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than one psychic power per turn, he[…]”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Admittedly, if GW wrote Psychic Shriek as a Focused Witchfire power, threads like this would not exist. However, they did not.

SJ

Sho off wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It doesn't roll To Wound so it does not need a successful To Hit roll.

A Witchfire power must roll to hit as per rules. You cannot ignore that. Unless you plan to break RAW. End.

Do not even consider resolving he power yet. Break it down simply. Do not even think about psychic shriek yet.

Witchfire spell = treat like a shooting attack. Rules for Witchfire state roll to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rules for those who are confused about a Witchfire.


As I a newer here hopefully this isn't an issue with me posting this here. If it is sorry.

“WITCHFIRE
Witchfire powers aer manifested during the Psyker’s Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks. Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon (unless otherwise noted). A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a Blast or Large Blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a Template weapon, which hits automatically. Saves can be taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack.

The Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point), cannot be locked in combat, must not have Run in the Shooting phase and must shoot at the same target as his unit, if he wishes to manifest witchfire. In the same way, if a Psyker targets a unit with witchfire, then he and his unit can only charge that target in the ensuing Assault phase. Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack, a Psyker embarked on a vehicle can target an enemy outside that vehicle by using a Fire Point.

Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than one psychic power per turn, he[…]”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

And none of that ties a successful To Hit roll to the power.

The fact that the power must roll to hit, but does not have a profile is Irrelevant because we know the power is broken. We must then figure out how to make the power work. This is because having the power not function at all is a waste of ink and clearly not implied in the rules.

HIWPI (as no rule book). Surely rolling to hit is resolving the power?, it is a witchfire so you resolve the power by rolling to hit then applying the effects?.

MarkyMark wrote:
HIWPI (as no rule book). Surely rolling to hit is resolving the power?, it is a witchfire so you resolve the power by rolling to hit then applying the effects?.

Sure, but how many dice do you roll to hit?

Psychic Shriek does not have a profile so you don't know how many dice to roll to hit...

 DeathReaper wrote:
It doesn't roll To Wound so it does not need a successful To Hit roll.

This.

The requirement for a succesful roll to-hit before you can roll to-wound is ONLY found in the...to-wound section. There is no GENERAL rule stating if you must roll to hit, before you can move on this roll to hit must be successful.

This has, of course, been pointed out in this and the previous thread, but has been soundly ignored by Jeffersonian, who makes up that the 3D6 is a "replacement" for the roll to-wound, without, of course, providing any rules to support that contention.

So marker lights, How do you roll to hit with them if not allowed to roll to hit?. (unless there is a mechansim in tau dex for the markerlights).

I do agree that 3d6 test is not a replacement to wound.

(not arguing the point, I have a stinking cold and thats the last thing I need, add to that my brain not fully woken up nor gone to sleep last night I may be missing something obvious!).

Marky - no idea what youre asking about markerlights. They have a profile, so dont have the issues that PS does

PS doesnt have a profile, as required for an assault weapon to fire. More specific rule than the one jeffersonian is banking on in order to try to show that PS isnt functionally broken.

See told you I would be missing something obvoius!, heavy 1 for markers and PSA are assault......

I get it now .

So to summarise my argument, to avoid certain posters claiming it is something else, again:

1) the most specific rules require that, in order to know how many dice yo umust use, an Assault weapon has to have a profile. PS does not have a profile, ergo you have "undefined" number of dice, thus the game halts
2) The 3D6 effect is part of resolving the power, and nothing in the witchfire rules requires a succesful hit in order to continue resolving the power.
3) The only time you are required to have a succesful to-hit is when you are looking to roll to-wound, as stated in the rules for shooting. The 3D6 effect is NOT a roll to wound; claiming "it causes wounds, so must be!!" results in Gets Hot et al all being rolls to-wound, and handily conflicts with the written rules, so can be safely ignored as an opinion not based in fact

The result of 1) is that you should ideally never cast PS, as the game breaks if you do.

The result of 2) and 3) is that, IF you want the game to continue, a sensible houserule is that as the 3D6 effect is NEVER in any way shape of form tied to successfully hitting, the roll to-hit is entirely irrelevant. So skip it. It, functionally, does NOTHING for this power - so why bother with it? This is backed up by the FAQ for MH, which is a very similar power

Making up the number of dice to roll, THEN stating missing means you dont get to roll the 3D6 effect, is NOT a sensible solution - it involves making up 2 rules, vs ignoring one irrelevant one.

This has been the same argument in both threads, I just didnt put it in bold this time as doing so last time apparently didnt make any difference.

For the most part I agree with nosferatu, apart from rolling 1 die to hit and requiring a hit to have the power effect not being a sensible solution. I consider both to be reasonable house rules to resolve this issue, and while I lean towards one I realise I am biased because I use Psychic Shriek and want it to actually be good on models with less than BS 5.

I dont consider it a reasonable solution here, as it involves making up 2 rules - as opposed to ignoring an irrelevant one. Making a rule have relevance when it doesnt already is far from the simplest solution.

rigeld2 wrote:

You promise me that? Are you really sure? For the local tournament I was going to suggest exactly that. And I'm not "fighting" with you.

I'll concede I shouldn't call it a to wound roll as specified as in the shooting phase. My train of thought has always been if we have to follow the shooting rules we need to follow them all and the 3d6 was just a special example of the to wound roll. Again this is all RAI as the RAW the power doesn't work right now at all.

As for your local tournament, do they have a web age or location, I'm curious because of all the large tournaments I've been to or plan to go to I have never had a TO rule you must roll to hit and then disregard the outcome. The sheer amount of times you must have to explain the fact you missed to your opponent but they still have to resolve the power must by mind numbing.

The crazy part is, if they FAQ this as needing to roll 1D6 to hit the argument of many people in this thread won't change. Not that they will,

 DeathReaper wrote:
It doesn't roll To Wound so it does not need a successful To Hit roll.

that is completely false by RAW for witchfires.

making up that it can ignore RAW that is needs to hit, is a made up rule.

If there are rules to follow you follow them, RAW it has to roll to hit.

Then it comes to how many dice to roll?

Do you roll 1 or more, the profile doesn't explicitly state.

It doesnt give you permission to roll multiple, and tbh everyone posting here knows the silliest and worst thing would be to roll multiple because then do you roll a LD test for each to hit roll? Yes you would if you rolled to hit more than once. Obviously that's now how the power works.

Ignoring the to hit roll is breaking a solid RAW.

Making up that it rolls one dice is using a RAI that doesnt break a RAW.

No one is disputing that according to RAW you need to roll to hit, the dispute is whether or not the roll to hit affects the resolution of the power.