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I am starting a small world eater's army (around 500-750 points since I can't afford the larger tanks or big squads) using the Betrayal book. I haven't got the book yet (still in the mail) but any builds that work well? thanks for the feedback.

You should probably get the book first and read it over before asking that question.

30K is very different from 40K. The unit types available and how they are used are very, very different from 40K.

For example, a unit of Tactical Marines is 5-20 guys, and you do NOT get one special weapon/one heavy weapon. You have to take an elites choice for that kind of composition. There is no "Veteran Sergeant", it's a Sergeant with very limited wargear choices. Finally, realize that the army does NOT have "And They Shall Know No Fear" which has huge implications when it comes to close combat and leadership checks in general.

I guess the biggest difference between a 30K Horus Heresy list and a 40K Space Marine list- Horus Heresy is about specialized units working together, while a 40K list is a set of generalist units. You're going to have 2-3 huge Tactical Squads (15-20 marines), backed up by 6-8 very specialized units. You'll have to figure out how you want the list to play out when selecting those units. When I say specialized units, I mean five guys all with Plasma Rifles, or Volkite weapons (my personal favorite!), or Meltaguns. Or five guys with chain axes and bolt pistols. Most of the units are all armed the same, with no options for different weapons between models.

I don't know what point sizes Tamwulf is talking about but at 500 to 1k range I am lucky to have 5 units on the board. You really need the books. I haven't looked over the WE stuff, but using the NL rite of war in my 1k list, I end up with 28 total guys.
3x terror squads
1 5 man heavy support
1 7 man raptor squad.
Commander

You will find most starting units are expensive but the add on troops cost less than the initial troops. Some are just insanely priced. I could never justify the cost of Justaerin, they aren't that good but are priced like they should be. A full tac squad on the other hand would be half your points at 500. In my various group games we don't require an HQ at that point level but still for almost any squad in the book equipped decently you are looking at 200+ points easy. So two squads is about what you would have or 3 minimum sized tac squads with decently equipped sergeants I guess.

The first thing you need to know is you will lose alot of men, world eaters are great at assault but from then on are just assault marines without jp, here is what I suggest for a world eaters army to make the most of the shock assault theme they have

Kharn the bloody handed
Angels wrath (the orbital drop rite)

Tactical squad, sarg with arty armour and power axe, melta bombs, take chainaxes if you want, drop pod
All this comes to 210 ish, take at least 4 if these, add in a command squad if you wish (all are equipped with arty armour so are hard to shift) and place a centurion with it, for extra punch put kharn in the unit too and all in the same drop pod, centurion should be an apothecary and have articifer armour and a sabre

This is all a good starting point, if you want to know more take alook at my hh review on here.

Btw kharn is nails in hh, 4 attacks standard +2 for charging (bezerker assault) +d3 for rampage and an additional attack for 2ccw, that's up to 10, take gorechild and it's "only" 9, with the added bonus if 6 to wound is id

Good start except he said 500-750 points. You are pretty much foot slogging or in rhinos with tacticals. Foot slog one at least just so you can have somewhere for your HQ if you need to bring one(at 500)

Col. Dash wrote:
I don't know what point sizes Tamwulf is talking about but at 500 to 1k range I am lucky to have 5 units on the board. You really need the books. I haven't looked over the WE stuff, but using the NL rite of war in my 1k list, I end up with 28 total guys.
3x terror squads
1 5 man heavy support
1 7 man raptor squad.
Commander

You will find most starting units are expensive but the add on troops cost less than the initial troops. Some are just insanely priced. I could never justify the cost of Justaerin, they aren't that good but are priced like they should be. A full tac squad on the other hand would be half your points at 500. In my various group games we don't require an HQ at that point level but still for almost any squad in the book equipped decently you are looking at 200+ points easy. So two squads is about what you would have or 3 minimum sized tac squads with decently equipped sergeants I guess.

Well, I've built my list to 2000 points + extras. I've found that a 500-1000 point list is just about unworkable for Horus Heresy. I hope the OP realizes he'll need both rulebooks to really get the most out of the World Eaters?

Your proposed army list is not that good. A five man squad means as soon as they take a couple casualties, it'll be a leadership test at LD8. And when you fail, you'll be falling back and not regrouping. Like I said, a lot of people really underestimate how insanely good ATSKNF is. Though I think the Terror squad is fearless? Don't you have to take a special character to make Terror Squads a troops choice? I don't have my book handy, sorry. What did you give the Heavy Support squad? Missile Launchers or Autocannons?

One thing I've also noticed- it's all too easy to double or even triple the cost of your commander with all the Wargear Goodies available to him. At this points level, I'd say this would be a better list, and it's all from one book- Betrayal (The Terror Squads are in Massacre, right?) :

2x Tactical Squads
1x Heavy Support Choice or Seeker Squad (better options/flexibility for what you want them to do)
Rhinos
Maybe a really, really stripped down Commander? Like Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon?

I was just giving him an example but yours is just as good for in that respect. I totally agree they are unworkable at that low a level. I am purposely fielding a gimped list. They were complaining my DE warrior and venom list was cheesy at 500 points.

As to my army, its the Rite of War Terror Assault. It requires three Terror squads as troops, thus why I have the bare minimum of them. They cause fear and also infiltrate. Plus with the Rite of War on a 4+ its night fight the first turn, after that night fight continues on a 5+ and then 6+ the turn after. We are playing on a 4x4 table too. The Heavy support guys are using Culverins. After Christmas they will be replaced with a Sicarian. I am also looking at some other options as well. My favorite unit is my Destroyers and Moritat but I cant use them in 1k since he cant be the commander. I could come up with a pretty decent DP list or a general tac list, 40 marines is only 500 points with no upgrades.

 Formosa wrote:
The first thing you need to know is you will lose alot of men, world eaters are great at assault but from then on are just assault marines without jp, here is what I suggest for a world eaters army to make the most of the shock assault theme they have

Kharn the bloody handed
Angels wrath (the orbital drop rite)

Tactical squad, sarg with arty armour and power axe, melta bombs, take chainaxes if you want, drop pod
All this comes to 210 ish, take at least 4 if these, add in a command squad if you wish (all are equipped with arty armour so are hard to shift) and place a centurion with it, for extra punch put kharn in the unit too and all in the same drop pod, centurion should be an apothecary and have articifer armour and a sabre

This is all a good starting point, if you want to know more take alook at my hh review on here.

Btw kharn is nails in hh, 4 attacks standard +2 for charging (bezerker assault) +d3 for rampage and an additional attack for 2ccw, that's up to 10, take gorechild and it's "only" 9, with the added bonus if 6 to wound is id

I probably can't take Kharn (My local FLGS has rules about FW stuff like that) but thanks for the advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My FLGS is also pretty open about rule interpretations so these guys may end up as allies for my Imperial fists.

 Tamwulf wrote:
You should probably get the book first and read it over before asking that question.

30K is very different from 40K. The unit types available and how they are used are very, very different from 40K.

For example, a unit of Tactical Marines is 5-20 guys, and you do NOT get one special weapon/one heavy weapon. You have to take an elites choice for that kind of composition. There is no "Veteran Sergeant", it's a Sergeant with very limited wargear choices. Finally, realize that the army does NOT have "And They Shall Know No Fear" which has huge implications when it comes to close combat and leadership checks in general.

I guess the biggest difference between a 30K Horus Heresy list and a 40K Space Marine list- Horus Heresy is about specialized units working together, while a 40K list is a set of generalist units. You're going to have 2-3 huge Tactical Squads (15-20 marines), backed up by 6-8 very specialized units. You'll have to figure out how you want the list to play out when selecting those units. When I say specialized units, I mean five guys all with Plasma Rifles, or Volkite weapons (my personal favorite!), or Meltaguns. Or five guys with chain axes and bolt pistols. Most of the units are all armed the same, with no options for different weapons between models.

30k actually sounds better and better the more I hear about it.

I'm wondering, how prevalent are fliers and giant "unit eraser" blast templates? What about Dreadnaught type units?

If only they had a 30k Xenos expansion...

Flyers are not that prevalent but they do exist and with Book 2s release we have a lot more options to deal with them.
You can get the Angels Decent Rite of War that makes any unit that gets a rhino normally have to get a Storm Eagle as a dedicated transport. Negative on this is anything that cant ride or deep strike cant be taken. But I honestly have yet to see or hear anyone using that one. Otherwise you have FireHawks and Caestus in heavy, Storm Eagles and Lightnings in Fast.

You really will find your points eaten up quickly though so dont expect too many toys.
As for Walkers, you have talons of Contemptors and Dreadnoughts, or Mortis AA of both, dont remember if they are squaded or not.

I love the 30k game to the point I am selling my 40k space sharks army in the near future to pay for more 30k stuff.
Lords of War options might have some of those, to be honest I havent looked.

Col. Dash wrote:
Flyers are not that prevalent but they do exist and with Book 2s release we have a lot more options to deal with them.
You can get the Angels Decent Rite of War that makes any unit that gets a rhino normally have to get a Storm Eagle as a dedicated transport. Negative on this is anything that cant ride or deep strike cant be taken. But I honestly have yet to see or hear anyone using that one. Otherwise you have FireHawks and Caestus in heavy, Storm Eagles and Lightnings in Fast.

You really will find your points eaten up quickly though so dont expect too many toys.
As for Walkers, you have talons of Contemptors and Dreadnoughts, or Mortis AA of both, dont remember if they are squaded or not.

I love the 30k game to the point I am selling my 40k space sharks army in the near future to pay for more 30k stuff.
Lords of War options might have some of those, to be honest I havent looked.

My wallet is unable to afford any "toys" so this a boon as well as a curse

My favourite 500pts HH list:
HQ
Centurion - 50
Troops
10 Tacticals - 150
10 Tacticals - 150
Heavy Support
Predator with Predator Cannon - 75
Predator with Predator Cannon - 75

Or replace both preds with a Sicaran and buy 15pts of stuff for your centurion. This gives you a couple of solid scoring units, a cheap HQ and some firepower to back it up. At such a low points level it's pretty much the most devasating thing you can fit with the legions list.

 Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
My favourite 500pts HH list:
HQ
Centurion - 50
Troops
10 Tacticals - 150
10 Tacticals - 150
Heavy Support
Predator with Predator Cannon - 75
Predator with Predator Cannon - 75

Or replace both preds with a Sicaran and buy 15pts of stuff for your centurion. This gives you a couple of solid scoring units, a cheap HQ and some firepower to back it up. At such a low points level it's pretty much the most devasating thing you can fit with the legions list.

No despoilers? Just wondering since I have a vague understanding of the World Eaters rules and they seem quite CC oriented.

I know that wouldnt work with either of my groups in 500. No vehicles with a AV facing of 12. Otherwise not too bad.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The first thing you need to know is you will lose alot of men, world eaters are great at assault but from then on are just assault marines without jp, here is what I suggest for a world eaters army to make the most of the shock assault theme they have

Kharn the bloody handed
Angels wrath (the orbital drop rite)

Tactical squad, sarg with arty armour and power axe, melta bombs, take chainaxes if you want, drop pod
All this comes to 210 ish, take at least 4 if these, add in a command squad if you wish (all are equipped with arty armour so are hard to shift) and place a centurion with it, for extra punch put kharn in the unit too and all in the same drop pod, centurion should be an apothecary and have articifer armour and a sabre

This is all a good starting point, if you want to know more take alook at my hh review on here.

Btw kharn is nails in hh, 4 attacks standard +2 for charging (bezerker assault) +d3 for rampage and an additional attack for 2ccw, that's up to 10, take gorechild and it's "only" 9, with the added bonus if 6 to wound is id

I probably can't take Kharn (My local FLGS has rules about FW stuff like that) but thanks for the advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My FLGS is also pretty open about rule interpretations so these guys may end up as allies for my Imperial fists.

Im confused, Kharn the bloody handed is just a pre heresy Kharn the betrayer, so if your using HH list, use kharn, simples

Col. Dash wrote:
Flyers are not that prevalent but they do exist and with Book 2s release we have a lot more options to deal with them.
You can get the Angels Decent Rite of War that makes any unit that gets a rhino normally have to get a Storm Eagle as a dedicated transport. Negative on this is anything that cant ride or deep strike cant be taken. But I honestly have yet to see or hear anyone using that one. Otherwise you have FireHawks and Caestus in heavy, Storm Eagles and Lightnings in Fast.

You really will find your points eaten up quickly though so dont expect too many toys.
As for Walkers, you have talons of Contemptors and Dreadnoughts, or Mortis AA of both, dont remember if they are squaded or not.

I love the 30k game to the point I am selling my 40k space sharks army in the near future to pay for more 30k stuff.
Lords of War options might have some of those, to be honest I havent looked.

I think 40k has too many toyz and not enough boyz, this sounds pretty good to me

 Formosa wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The first thing you need to know is you will lose alot of men, world eaters are great at assault but from then on are just assault marines without jp, here is what I suggest for a world eaters army to make the most of the shock assault theme they have

Kharn the bloody handed
Angels wrath (the orbital drop rite)

Tactical squad, sarg with arty armour and power axe, melta bombs, take chainaxes if you want, drop pod
All this comes to 210 ish, take at least 4 if these, add in a command squad if you wish (all are equipped with arty armour so are hard to shift) and place a centurion with it, for extra punch put kharn in the unit too and all in the same drop pod, centurion should be an apothecary and have articifer armour and a sabre

This is all a good starting point, if you want to know more take alook at my hh review on here.

Btw kharn is nails in hh, 4 attacks standard +2 for charging (bezerker assault) +d3 for rampage and an additional attack for 2ccw, that's up to 10, take gorechild and it's "only" 9, with the added bonus if 6 to wound is id

I probably can't take Kharn (My local FLGS has rules about FW stuff like that) but thanks for the advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My FLGS is also pretty open about rule interpretations so these guys may end up as allies for my Imperial fists.

Im confused, Kharn the bloody handed is just a pre heresy Kharn the betrayer, so if your using HH list, use kharn, simples

The thing is I'm going to be the only one using an HH army at the FLGS and I need my opponents consent just to run it (house rule for the FLGS) The FW FAQ says you can run Horus heresy armies against 40k armies but you must bar special characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Flyers are not that prevalent but they do exist and with Book 2s release we have a lot more options to deal with them.
You can get the Angels Decent Rite of War that makes any unit that gets a rhino normally have to get a Storm Eagle as a dedicated transport. Negative on this is anything that cant ride or deep strike cant be taken. But I honestly have yet to see or hear anyone using that one. Otherwise you have FireHawks and Caestus in heavy, Storm Eagles and Lightnings in Fast.

You really will find your points eaten up quickly though so dont expect too many toys.
As for Walkers, you have talons of Contemptors and Dreadnoughts, or Mortis AA of both, dont remember if they are squaded or not.

I love the 30k game to the point I am selling my 40k space sharks army in the near future to pay for more 30k stuff.
Lords of War options might have some of those, to be honest I havent looked.

I think 40k has too many toyz and not enough boyz, this sounds pretty good to me

Being someone who swarms the board with Imperial fists, one of the biggest draws to 30k was the focus on swarms of SM breaking things rather than relying on cheesy tanks and flyers.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
The thing is I'm going to be the only one using an HH army at the FLGS and I need my opponents consent just to run it (house rule for the FLGS) The FW FAQ says you can run Horus heresy armies against 40k armies but you must bar special characters.

No it doesn't. It says you shouldn't use Lords of War or the Primarchs, i.e Superheavies, unless you're both using the same Force Org Chart. Kharn is not a Lord of War selection, nor a Primarch, so he's good to go.

I use a HH list for 40k and as long as you use the standard force org the play isn't too different and I definitely wouldn't call it OP. Their are advantages to a legion army but they are balanced with really noticeable drawbacks. Nothing says bummer like getting a marine squad swept in combat after losing by 1.

For a simple starting 500pt list that is start FOC legal, I would suggest 2 groups of 10 tacticals with an extra close combat weapon and maybe a power weapon on the Sargent. Definitely get the banner that allows rerolls for combat results. spend the rest of the points on a consult and extra marines. It is a footslog army but 21+ space marines isn't something to laugh at.

For the consult, a psyker would be the most adaptable since he has no psyker restrictions and can go up to level 3. A primaris medica would increase survivability with an apothecary hq. A chaplain would increase cc ability.

 shamroll wrote:
I use a HH list for 40k and as long as you use the standard force org the play isn't too different and I definitely wouldn't call it OP. Their are advantages to a legion army but they are balanced with really noticeable drawbacks. Nothing says bummer like getting a marine squad swept in combat after losing by 1.

For a simple starting 500pt list that is start FOC legal, I would suggest 2 groups of 10 tacticals with an extra close combat weapon and maybe a power weapon on the Sargent. Definitely get the banner that allows rerolls for combat results. spend the rest of the points on a consult and extra marines. It is a footslog army but 21+ space marines isn't something to laugh at.

For the consult, a psyker would be the most adaptable since he has no psyker restrictions and can go up to level 3. A primaris medica would increase survivability with an apothecary hq. A chaplain would increase cc ability.

I definitely have the models to try this list. I might set the bar at 750 pts (for now) so I can get a handle on what works in a World Eaters army.