Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What if the Emperor had compromised at Nikaea, forbidding sorcery but tolerating the Librarians, while personally overseeing Magnus' reformation of his legion?

Honestly it seems likely that magnus would always fall to chaos. Simply put, Tzeentch was meddling in it far too much for it ever to be possible to not be so (in my personal opinion at least).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it seems likely that magnus would always fall to chaos. Simply put, Tzeentch was meddling in it far too much for it ever to be possible to not be so (in my personal opinion at least).

Ah, but that belies the Emperor's intervention, which is actually part of the stated OP.

Magnus attacking Horus would have ended the Horus heresy very quickly.

BaconUprising wrote:
Magnus attacking Horus would have ended the Horus heresy very quickly.

This.

I firmly believe that any 1 traitor legion NOT going traitor changes the course of history. The 1000 Sons and Alpha Legion being ones that could tip the balance all by themselves.

If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

Agreed the sons of Horus were the most powerful legion no others could match them however Magnus in actual combat would very likely kill Horus and his addition to the imperium I feel would give them an overwhelming advantage.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

That is not the point. The point is that 8 traitor legions vs 10 loyalist legions is much greater odds for the loyalists than 9v9.

The real question is could Magnus respond at all? Because in this situation its very possible the reformed Magnus and his legion would likely be taken to Terra along with the Emperor after Ullanor to work on the Imperial Webway. Magnus and his Librarians' abilities could also be hampered somewhat since they now have to completely depend on their own psychic powers without daemonic support.

The Cabal too would probably want to see Magnus neutralized; so long as Magnus is around, the Emperor and Malcador could focus on the war - which the Cabal would definitely not want - while Magnus keeps the Golden Throne under control.

BaconUprising wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

Agreed the sons of Horus were the most powerful legion no others could match them however Magnus in actual combat would very likely kill Horus and his addition to the imperium I feel would give them an overwhelming advantage.

Thats not even remotely true, here is a list of legions that horus would never want to fight 1on1

Ultrmarine, outright stated in audioshort "warmaster". Sons of horus just don't have the numbers
Blood angels, horus knows sang is his equal and the blood angels are a massive threat
space wolves, while Russ himself may not be the massive threat the wolves would leave his legion decimated and thus easy work for a mop up
Dark angels, horus would find himself outmaneuvered, forethought and outfought at every turn, lion is the BEST strategist in the fluff, this is confirmed by guiliman in unrembered empire.
Thousand sons, fire all the bolters you like, kine shields will handle that, there is a reason why horus sent the wolves to kill the sons, he knew that 2 of the biggest threats would kill each other and sent the alpha legion to mop up what's left. This is in scars the white scars series

Kine Shields can't protect the whole legion.

... we saw TKSons get killed by bolters when the Wolves attacked. Even before the Sisters of Silence got involved.

There were only 10,000 Sons when the Wolves attacked. And not all of them are psykers. So.

Horus sent the Wolves for two reasons:

1. The opportunity was there. It wasn't Horus' machinations that led to Russ going to to Prospero. He just tweaked Russ' objective to suit his own ends.

2. He needed them both gone anyway. He initially had no idea that Magnus would end up getting screwed and joining his cause.

The idea that sending the Wolves to fight the 1KSons was Horus' only option is a pretty big logical jump, as well as baseless.

 Formosa wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

Agreed the sons of Horus were the most powerful legion no others could match them however Magnus in actual combat would very likely kill Horus and his addition to the imperium I feel would give them an overwhelming advantage.

Thats not even remotely true, here is a list of legions that horus would never want to fight 1on1

Ultrmarine, outright stated in audioshort "warmaster". Sons of horus just don't have the numbers
Blood angels, horus knows sang is his equal and the blood angels are a massive threat
space wolves, while Russ himself may not be the massive threat the wolves would leave his legion decimated and thus easy work for a mop up
Dark angels, horus would find himself outmaneuvered, forethought and outfought at every turn, lion is the BEST strategist in the fluff, this is confirmed by guiliman in unrembered empire.
Thousand sons, fire all the bolters you like, kine shields will handle that, there is a reason why horus sent the wolves to kill the sons, he knew that 2 of the biggest threats would kill each other and sent the alpha legion to mop up what's left. This is in scars the white scars series

So many errors here I wont bother to respond...

BaconUprising wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

Agreed the sons of Horus were the most powerful legion no others could match them however Magnus in actual combat would very likely kill Horus and his addition to the imperium I feel would give them an overwhelming advantage.

Thats not even remotely true, here is a list of legions that horus would never want to fight 1on1

Ultrmarine, outright stated in audioshort "warmaster". Sons of horus just don't have the numbers
Blood angels, horus knows sang is his equal and the blood angels are a massive threat
space wolves, while Russ himself may not be the massive threat the wolves would leave his legion decimated and thus easy work for a mop up
Dark angels, horus would find himself outmaneuvered, forethought and outfought at every turn, lion is the BEST strategist in the fluff, this is confirmed by guiliman in unrembered empire.
Thousand sons, fire all the bolters you like, kine shields will handle that, there is a reason why horus sent the wolves to kill the sons, he knew that 2 of the biggest threats would kill each other and sent the alpha legion to mop up what's left. This is in scars the white scars series

So many errors here I wont bother to respond...

No errors at all, references given, don't believe it read the books I'm referring to.


"kine shields won't protect the whole legion" they can and were untill the sisters of silence turned up, remember the thousand sons were winning (ish) up to that point, they would have psykers with shields in each Unit to act as a force multiplayer, then pyrae would roam around in units blasting things, backed up by the corvidai putting things where they need to be, had the sons been able to fight horus ans his legion without support from the sisters it would be a massacre

No, they weren't. The TKSons were being killed by bolters and conventional weaponry even before the Sisters arrived. There is never any sign that the Sons were "winning" before they showed up. They were doing damage, sure, but it's never shown nor implied to go any further than that.

A Sons of Horus Grand Company against a Thousands Sons Fellowship will probably lose. Even without sorcery and just psychic power, the Thousand Sons Librarians are more powerful and more refined (not to mention more integrated into the legion's structure) than those of other legions. If its legion vs legion, the Thousand Sons will definitely lose. There's just too many Sons of Horus.

In one-on-one, Magnus will probably lose to Horus, although Magnus has a considerable chance of doing a mutual kill.

Personally, I think Magnus would be too busy at Terra to have a chance to directly confront Horus. Without sorcery and with just his psychic powers, he might sense the initial beginning of the rebellion, but he probably won't realize it for what it is/the scale of the rebellion until the Istvaan V Drop-Site Massacre. Most of his legion will probably be at Terra along with the Imperial Fists, the Sons providing numbers for the limited Custodes and Sisters during the invasion of the Eldar Webway, and the Fists overseeing the Imperial Palace's reconstruction. Some of the Fellowships will probably be with the Expeditionary Forces when the Heresy breaks out. Those are the ones Horus and Guilliman will target: the former aiming to subvert or destroy, the latter aiming to recruit them for his 'Imperium Secundus.'

Personally though, a loyalist Fellowship at Calth could prove disastrous for the Word Bearers. The Thousand Sons would probably sense/foresee their treachery, and while they might not be able to prevent the Battle of Calth from taking place, they just might be able to prevent the Word Bearers from taking such a heavy toll on the Ultramarines, burning Calth down, or triggering the Warp Storms that cut off the Ultima Segmentum from the rest of the Imperium. And that just might be enough to turn the tide of the war against the traitors.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, they weren't. The TKSons were being killed by bolters and conventional weaponry even before the Sisters arrived. There is never any sign that the Sons were "winning" before they showed up. They were doing damage, sure, but it's never shown nor implied to go any further than that.

This is correct. Kine shields don't nullify all damage they just slow it down. As said previously they were not winning they were doing damage. Additionally the SoH have access to daemons who are far more potent allies than custodies and sisters of silence. I cant see the TS ever winning in direct competition, they were outnumbered, outgunned and no matter how much you deny it Horus is a far better tactician than Magnus...

BaconUprising wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, they weren't. The TKSons were being killed by bolters and conventional weaponry even before the Sisters arrived. There is never any sign that the Sons were "winning" before they showed up. They were doing damage, sure, but it's never shown nor implied to go any further than that.

This is correct. Kine shields don't nullify all damage they just slow it down. As said previously they were not winning they were doing damage. Additionally the SoH have access to daemons who are far more potent allies than custodies and sisters of silence. I cant see the TS ever winning in direct competition, they were outnumbered, outgunned and no matter how much you deny it Horus is a far better tactician than Magnus...

The Thousand Sons have Librarians though, and they can counter the Sons of Horus' sorcerers and Daemons. And Horus will probably be with the bulk of his legion. If its just a Grand Company against a Fellowship, the balance is somewhat in favor of the XV Legion.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


In one-on-one, Magnus will probably lose to Horus, although Magnus has a considerable chance of doing a mutual kill.
.

I agreed with everything accept this. Though Horus is by far my favourite Primarch I think Magnus would slaughter him. He's just too powerful if the book Thousand Sons is anything to go by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, they weren't. The TKSons were being killed by bolters and conventional weaponry even before the Sisters arrived. There is never any sign that the Sons were "winning" before they showed up. They were doing damage, sure, but it's never shown nor implied to go any further than that.

This is correct. Kine shields don't nullify all damage they just slow it down. As said previously they were not winning they were doing damage. Additionally the SoH have access to daemons who are far more potent allies than custodies and sisters of silence. I cant see the TS ever winning in direct competition, they were outnumbered, outgunned and no matter how much you deny it Horus is a far better tactician than Magnus...

The Thousand Sons have Librarians though, and they can counter the Sons of Horus' sorcerers and Daemons. And Horus will probably be with the bulk of his legion. If its just a Grand Company against a Fellowship, the balance is somewhat in favor of the XV Legion.

Horus would be teleporting or dreadclawing down with a company of Justaerin terminators. The finest terminators in the legion with the most victories. That's how he always enters the battle. Plus pyskers would have no knowledge or way of countering the summoning of daemons especially if it was Erebus doing it.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


In one-on-one, Magnus will probably lose to Horus, although Magnus has a considerable chance of doing a mutual kill.
.

I agreed with everything accept this. Though Horus is by far my favourite Primarch I think Magnus would slaughter him. He's just too powerful if the book Thousand Sons is anything to go by.

Traitor!Horus will probably be able to match Magnus' (who in this scenario cannot/will not use sorcery) psychic powers with his own sorcery/chaotic 'gifts'. And IIRC Horus was able to match Sanguinius and overpower Angron in spars before the Heresy. Magnus might not be able to cope. Russ and Magnus vs Horus however...

Of course if he does not use his powers Horus would butcher him with ease. Yes in close combat he is the most powerful primarch but if we factored in Magnus' psychic potential there really is no contest.

BaconUprising wrote:
Horus would be teleporting or dreadclawing down with a company of Justaerin terminators. The finest terminators in the legion with the most victories. That's how he always enters the battle. Plus pyskers would have no knowledge or way of countering the summoning of daemons especially if it was Erebus doing it.

If Horus arrived then the Thousand Sons will most likely lose. Depending on who their leader is, and definitely if Magnus is there, they might be able to pull off an orderly retreat. As for the Daemons, the Thousand Sons Librarians will have to counter them the old-fashioned way: kill the sorcerers and banish the ones already present. Things will probably get hairy if Erebus is there, but they still have a fighting chance.

EDIT: One battle I want to see is Lorgar vs Magnus. The two were very close, so things might get real emotional.

Magnus: Of all my brothers I thought I understood you the most. Why Lorgar? Why did you betray our father?

Lorgar: I didn't betray him! He betrayed me! He betrayed us! He hid the truth from us, lied to Humanity, and would lead them down the path of damnation!

Magnus: You sold your soul to those monsters that dwell in the Great Ocean over something like that? And you would do the same for Humanity? Lorgar this is madness!

Lorgar: You're the one who's mad! You know the truth Magnus! I have seen it! I know you have perceived them, the gods that dwell in the Immaterium.

Magnus: Fool! They are not gods! And even if they were I would not serve them, for I have seen what they intend to do with Humanity! They care nothing for us!

Lorgar: What is a god if it cannot make its will manifest? And what does it matter? If such is the truth, then it is Humanity's duty to submit to it regardless of the form it takes! To serve the truth brings rewards too, Magnus. Have you not seen our brother Angron? The gods rewarded him for his service and devotion by freeing him from his curse.

Magnus: I see only a monster. And I see your hand in this, Lorgar.

Lorgar: I see now that you are beyond redemption, Magnus.

Magnus: Likewise, brother. I will end you, for such is my obligation, as your brother and former friend...

Sons of Horus tactics were almost always a highly calculated dreadclaw drop pod assault. They were also described as being the second most manic legion when they attacked, after the World Eaters (yes more so than the wolves). I cant remember where but it is said that the SoH are a more calculated version of world eaters. They would offer the TS no chance of an orderly retreat especially with Horus leading his spear tip formation. The TS would have to sacrifice half their legion as a rear-guard for the other half to escape.

Also remember at this point the SoH would be well versed in slaughtering space marines as they have had their practice at Istaavan III. Additionally Horus was willing to go to any lengths to win which we can see when he virus bombed Istaavan. Something which we cannot say for Magnus, Horus also had all of his legion totally loyal to him after Istaavan III another thing that Magnus did not have.With the addition of daemons as well I see no possible way that the TS could win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You should work for the black library

Unfortunately, I agree. If Horus was in command, Magnus would lose a large portion of his legion just attempting to retreat. Of course, this doesn't include an intervention by another loyalist legion. Especially if its the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Unfortunately, I agree. If Horus was in command, Magnus would a large portion of his legion just attempting to retreat. Of course, this doesn't include an intervention by another loyalist legion. Especially if its the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels.

Yeah Sanguinius poses as interesting threat to Horus in two ways. One he is the only primarch who has any hope of besting him in single combat and who's legion has a legitimate chance (accept the ultramarines) in open warfare. Two because if he were to turn to chaos there is a very real possibility he could challenge Horus for command of the traitors.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Unfortunately, I agree. If Horus was in command, Magnus would a large portion of his legion just attempting to retreat. Of course, this doesn't include an intervention by another loyalist legion. Especially if its the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels.

Yeah Sanguinius poses as interesting threat to Horus in two ways. One he is the only primarch who has any hope of besting him in single combat and who's legion has a legitimate chance (accept the ultramarines) in open warfare. Two because if he were to turn to chaos there is a very real possibility he could challenge Horus for command of the traitors.

Sanguinius would sooner die than become a traitor. But assuming he does, the Imperium wouldn't stand a chance. Horus may be the greatest of the Primarchs, but Sanguinius is the Emperor 2.0.

The Ultramarines would need numbers, as personally I doubt Guilliman's a good enough tactician to best Horus, though he might stalemate and eventually force the Sons of Horus to retreat.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Unfortunately, I agree. If Horus was in command, Magnus would a large portion of his legion just attempting to retreat. Of course, this doesn't include an intervention by another loyalist legion. Especially if its the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels.

Yeah Sanguinius poses as interesting threat to Horus in two ways. One he is the only primarch who has any hope of besting him in single combat and who's legion has a legitimate chance (accept the ultramarines) in open warfare. Two because if he were to turn to chaos there is a very real possibility he could challenge Horus for command of the traitors.

Sanguinius would sooner die than become a traitor. But assuming he does, the Imperium wouldn't stand a chance. Horus may be the greatest of the Primarchs, but Sanguinius is the Emperor 2.0.

Agreed. I always felt that he would have made a better Warmaster. Horus new how to utilise his brother's strengths and win them to his cause but he never had the empathy (or foresight) that Sangy possessed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Ultramarines numbers are the only real way they could defeat the SoH. But with Horus' planning I cant help but feel that in a legion vs legion conflict SoH win every time (very narrowly followed by BA).

I agree; heck, even pre-Heresy Horus believed the title of Warmaster should have gone to Sanguinius. If Sanguinius became Warmaster, Lorgar would have a hell of a time corrupting him...or the other legions. And that's assuming Sanguinius doesn't personally kill him and his entire legion the moment the truth is revealed. Sanguinius seemed a very even-tempered Primarch, but on the battlefield I'd sooner face Angron than Sanguinius.

Probably backed up by the fact that he hadn't lost a single battle right up until the siege of Terra. Even Sanguinus lost one battle (when he and his BA first fought Ka'Bandah).

BaconUprising wrote:
Probably backed up by the fact that he hadn't lost a single battle right up until the siege of Terra. Even Sanguinus lost one battle (when he and his BA first fought Ka'Bandah).

And later on he broke the same daemon's back. In the 41st Millennium, the Grey Knights always take horrendous losses against Bloodthirsters. And Sanguinius broke one (and one of the mightiest at that) on his knee.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Probably backed up by the fact that he hadn't lost a single battle right up until the siege of Terra. Even Sanguinus lost one battle (when he and his BA first fought Ka'Bandah).

And later on he broke the same daemon on his back. In the 41st Millennium, the Grey Knights always take horrendous losses against Bloodthirsters. And Sanguinius broke one on his knee.

Yeah he broke his back over his knee twice, strangled him with his whip and cast him into the eternity portal to shut it on the traitors. Ultimately he was far more powerful than Ka'Bandah but the point is that he did lose. Right up until the very final battle Horus had won everything. Sanguinus lost the battle but won the war. Horus never even lost the battle.