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If Magnus had been a terra and not been using sorcery on prospero, it is not only the thousand sons that would be free to aid the emperor. It would mean Magnus would not have broken the shields protecting the golden throne thus no demonic invasion, therefore freeing up the custodes and sisters of silence AS WELL AS the emperor. That would mean the god emperor would have actually have been in charge of the loyalist forces rather than forcing back a demonic horde...

Poly Ranger wrote:
If Magnus had been a terra and not been using sorcery on prospero, it is not only the thousand sons that would be free to aid the emperor. It would mean Magnus would not have broken the shields protecting the golden throne thus no demonic invasion, therefore freeing up the custodes and sisters of silence AS WELL AS the emperor. That would mean the god emperor would have actually have been in charge of the loyalist forces rather than forcing back a demonic horde...

Actually no; the Emperor would still be busy keeping the Golden Throne under control, seeing as Magnus was meant to lead the Imperial invasion of the Eldar Webway. Dorn would still be overseeing the loyalist war effort, although the Emperor would probably have had a greater role than in canon.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

Numbers are irrelevant when one of the captains could crush a division of troops by themselves.

Let us not forget that the Council took place because the wolves and death guard saw the Sons in action and shat their collective powerpants.


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 Admiral Valerian wrote:


In one-on-one, Magnus will probably lose to Horus, although Magnus has a considerable chance of doing a mutual kill.

Doubt it, Horus succumbed to Lorgar's powers, showing us he doesn't have Russ' apparently unique anti-psyker defenses, so Magnus would crush him like a bug.

The Primarchs' power scale is basically this:

Russ when fighting Magnus
Magnus
.
.
.
Everyone else, including Russ somewhere in the middle of the pack.

What good would the TS do for the loyalist faction, when they would just instantly auto lose to the flesh change anyways? All Thousand sons are ticking time bombs and I'm almost certain that, Zeentch is only all too willing to trigger the flesh change once the war reaches its climax. Who are the loyalist then suppose to fight? Should they concentrate on the traitors in front of them, or turn around and shoot at the abominations behind their backs? Throw in the SW legion and the more extreme elements of IF and you got yourself a recipe for one nasty disaster.

 Omegus wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't think the 1KSons could defeat the Sons of Horus in an open battle.

Even with their psyker mastery, they'd be outnumbered at least 8-10 to 1, and the majority of them die to bolters just like every other marine.

Numbers are irrelevant when one of the captains could crush a division of troops by themselves.

Let us not forget that the Council took place because the wolves and death guard saw the Sons in action and shat their collective powerpants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


In one-on-one, Magnus will probably lose to Horus, although Magnus has a considerable chance of doing a mutual kill.

Doubt it, Horus succumbed to Lorgar's powers, showing us he doesn't have Russ' apparently unique anti-psyker defenses, so Magnus would crush him like a bug.

The Primarchs' power scale is basically this:

Russ when fighting Magnus
Magnus
.
.
.
Everyone else, including Russ somewhere in the middle of the pack.

1. Where does one captain ever crush a division of space marines?
2. If Magnus could crush Horus like a bug, explain why he lost to Leman Russ...

 Omegus wrote:
one of the captains could crush a division of troops by themselves.

So can a tank. Something the Sons of Horus have in spades, while the Sons have almost none.

No TSons Psyker has ever "crushed a division of troops by themselves".

They are a bunch of Alpha level psykers. The power of such psykers is clearly stated in all sources that touch upon the subject, whether it be codex, BRB, or a BL novel.

The only reason they don't dominate everything is reverse plot-armor.

lulz.

Prove that many of them are alpha-level or higher psykers.

Lorgar is an alpha level psycher, when he fought guilliame he was not crushing him like a bug. He was getting the sh**t kicked out of him. Explain?

BaconUprising wrote:
Lorgar is an alpha level psycher, when he fought guilliame he was not crushing him like a bug. He was getting the sh**t kicked out of him. Explain?

A. He was unable to use his powers to any great extent due to the ritual he was performing.
B. He crushed Guilliman's skull.

Read the fluff before you comment on it.


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
lulz.

Prove that many of them are alpha-level or higher psykers.

Do they really need any more than Magnus?

Magnus could raze the surface of planets with his mind. He could turn oceans to corrosive acid, and kill hundreds of Marines with a stare.


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BaconUprising wrote:

2. If Magnus could crush Horus like a bug, explain why he lost to Leman Russ...

Because Tzeentch willed him to.

Magnus was beating Russ, Russ' wolves, and the entire Space Wolves Legion in combat by himself, while also destroying Prospero. Even though Russ had armoured warded against psychic power (Which Magnus cracked open in a single attack).

Magnus has on two separate occasions had his psychic power favorably compared to the Emperor's.

Magnus is the most powerful Primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:

Doubt it, Horus succumbed to Lorgar's powers, showing us he doesn't have Russ' apparently unique anti-psyker defenses, so Magnus would crush him like a bug.

The Primarchs' power scale is basically this:

Russ when fighting Magnus
Magnus
.
.
.
Everyone else, including Russ somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Russ' psychic defenses were partially tied into his armour, which deflected Auramagma's (I think?) Psyflame back at him. Though he is a pretty powerful psyker himself, who can specifically target psykers.

And Magnus was not committed to the battle anyway. As confirmed by Lorgar. If Magnus wasn't still straddling the fence, he would have defeated Russ, in all likelihood.


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BaconUprising wrote:

And later on he broke the same daemon on his back. In the 41st Millennium, the Grey Knights always take horrendous losses against Bloodthirsters. And Sanguinius broke one on his knee.

Yeah he broke his back over his knee twice, strangled him with his whip and cast him into the eternity portal to shut it on the traitors. Ultimately he was far more powerful than Ka'Bandah but the point is that he did lose. Right up until the very final battle Horus had won everything. Sanguinus lost the battle but won the war. Horus never even lost the battle.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Lorgar is an alpha level psycher, when he fought guilliame he was not crushing him like a bug. He was getting the sh**t kicked out of him. Explain?

A. He was unable to use his powers to any great extent due to the ritual he was performing.
B. He crushed Guilliman's skull.

Read the fluff before you comment on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
lulz.

Prove that many of them are alpha-level or higher psykers.

Do they really need any more than Magnus?

Magnus could raze the surface of planets with his mind. He could turn oceans to corrosive acid, and kill hundreds of Marines with a stare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:

2. If Magnus could crush Horus like a bug, explain why he lost to Leman Russ...

Because Tzeentch willed him to.

Magnus was beating Russ, Russ' wolves, and the entire Space Wolves Legion in combat by himself, while also destroying Prospero. Even though Russ had armoured warded against psychic power (Which Magnus cracked open in a single attack).

Magnus has on two separate occasions had his psychic power favorably compared to the Emperor's.

Magnus is the most powerful Primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:

Doubt it, Horus succumbed to Lorgar's powers, showing us he doesn't have Russ' apparently unique anti-psyker defenses, so Magnus would crush him like a bug.

The Primarchs' power scale is basically this:

Russ when fighting Magnus
Magnus
.
.
.
Everyone else, including Russ somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Russ' psychic defenses were partially tied into his armour, which deflected Auramagma's (I think?) Psyflame back at him. Though he is a pretty powerful psyker himself, who can specifically target psykers.

And Magnus was not committed to the battle anyway. As confirmed by Lorgar. If Magnus wasn't still straddling the fence, he would have defeated Russ, in all likelihood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:

And later on he broke the same daemon on his back. In the 41st Millennium, the Grey Knights always take horrendous losses against Bloodthirsters. And Sanguinius broke one on his knee.

Yeah he broke his back over his knee twice, strangled him with his whip and cast him into the eternity portal to shut it on the traitors. Ultimately he was far more powerful than Ka'Bandah but the point is that he did lose. Right up until the very final battle Horus had won everything. Sanguinus lost the battle but won the war. Horus never even lost the battle.

I guess Horus being nearly killed by a fat governor with a pimped out sword does not count?


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, they weren't. The TKSons were being killed by bolters and conventional weaponry even before the Sisters arrived. There is never any sign that the Sons were "winning" before they showed up. They were doing damage, sure, but it's never shown nor implied to go any further than that.

Considering how Ahriman's troops apparently only lost one guy in the first engagement (And only because Ahriman hesitated, because he was still wary of killing fellow Marines), and the Space Wolves were wiped out, and in Phosis T'kar's own POV battle, similar was happening (Only a Raptora was mentioned to have died, and their kine shields were mentioned to be largely proof against the Space Wolf attack), yeah, I'd say they were most likely winning.

Yes, basically the only way anyone ever doesn't just insta-die when facing Magnus, is because the narrative always comes up with some excuse for him not to use his abilities to their full extent.

Oh, he only half-killed Russ/wolves/entire Legion because he was hesitating, oh he only didn't incinerate the entire fang with a fart because he keeps forgetting that he is a Primarch.

Reverse plot armor.

To answer the stupid questions posed previously, Lorgar did not use his psychic powers against Guilliman. The only one we do see use his psychic powers against Guilliman is Kor Phaeron, a pale shadow of Lorgar, and he brought Gully to his knees in short order. The captains of the Fellowships are all at least as powerful as Kor Phaeron. The setting is not short on descriptions of the powers of psykers, I can't believe this is even being questioned.

If you read the actual text again, the Wolves were getting absolutely roflestomped. The only time the Wolves were making any significant advances is when they were fighting PDF in parade uniforms who were caught completely by surprise, and later when the Thousand Sons started self-destructing, only to have their whole advance halted again with literally a single glance from Magnus.

The potential for Magnus, Empy or Malcador being fully available to fight back at Terra could have changed everything.
Or nothing.

Magnus would probably immediately tip the balance in the Imperium's favor, considering that he'd quite likely be able to solo Horus without protection from Khorne. IIRC, the only reason why Magnus was defeated by the Space Wolves is their strange anti-psyker nature.

Magnus switching changes everything. I really feel the 'Heresy' at that point would be a speed bump in history about somebody speaking up and disappearing.

The curious thing is to think about what later problems this would have caused due to the 'better' result having unforseen consequences.

Someone hit the nail on the head early on in this and ever since almost everyone seems to have devolved into a "my dad is stronger than your dad" boast between Magnus and Horus. That is in no way the point. Sure one on one Magnus may have lost, but so far in the Heresy when has Horus attacked another Legion one on one? This is a galaxy spanning war. Ok cool, Horus sends the entirety of his legion to Prospero. In this reality Magnus doesn't let him slip by like he did with Russ. The entire Prospero fleet shreds the Sons Of Horus as they rush into the system. Magnus knows they are coming long before they get there due to his psychic ability. The SoH that get through the blockade are met by a fully prepared planetary defence. No chance for a big orbital bombardment, the troops are met with insane resistance. So two things, first; if Horus could even manage to muster his entire legion to go attack one loose end after Istvaan V it would be a small miracle. He has an entire war to fight and at no point in the series since the Dropsite has he committed his own legion to one single mass assault, his forces are spread too thinly. Secondly, even if he does manage to muster the legion and beat Magnus...congratualtions he just lost the war. Even a victory would cripple the Sons of Horus. Look at how many men the Word Bearers lost at Calth. And that was with the element of surprise. Horus would doom his whole war effort.

Lets not forget; Horus loses 9v9 despite wiping out 3 legions in the first act of the war. Despite Lorgar getting the drop on Guilliman, despite the Wolves, Dark Angels and Smurfs never reaching Terra...he still loses. Now add in one more loyal legion on Terra...he doesn't stand a chance.


The biggest difference in this alternate timeline is that Malcador lives...and maybe the Emperor is allowed to die. With Magnus around, even if the Emp fought Horus personally, Magnus is sat on the Throne, Malcador doesn't sacrifice himself and the Emperor's near dead body doesn't need to be implanted on the throne to power the astronomican. This has another implication, Magnus sides with Dorn over the decision to keep the Legions together, his Legion is too small for him to have agreed to split it. He could then threaten to shutdown the beacon (a kind of nuclear deterrent) if Guilliman doesn't back down. The possibility of Tzeentch corrupting him is still a possibility but the future is unknown. From there just think of all of the interesting different "what ifs" we could have got. Magnus staying loyal changes everything.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
- snip-

Well, if Malcador lives, then I suppose the Administratum doesn't get bogged down in red tape, the Inquisition would actually work to prevent heresy and treason as opposed to simply responding to it, and the Ecclesiarchy (Malcador was implied to have been secretly sponsoring the Lectitio Divinitatus) might be a tad more benevolent. And Magnus living and remaining loyal means...the Imperial Webway remains intact. Bad news for the Eldar, and maybe for Chaos as well.