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MadEdric wrote:
Considering that Dire Avengers have a special issue shurikan rifles, surely teminators having a special issue storm bolter isn't out if the question. Just a special war gear entry in their profile like "Retribution pattern storm bolter" salvo 5/3 30" range or some such. Only terminator squads can get them, not ICs or any other unit that can use a storm bolter.

I think 30" is a bit much...

xruslanx wrote:Simple. Make terminator armour 1+, rolled as 3+ on two dice. Ap 1 still penetrates it but it shouldn't be so easy to lasgun them to death.

And more importantly you'd need a chainfist to kill them in close combat.

That's not simple. You kill Terminators by massed small arms fire. Imagine a platoon of Guardsmen shooting at a unit of Terminators. Yeah. You'd need to roll each wound save separately. The game is slow as it is without making it even slower.

Oh and you'd also break the convention of one dice per non-LD action.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Or maybe just do that 3+ on 2D6 thing, but make AP2 turn it to a 7+ or so.

Compunds the speed problem while additionally suspending long standing rules tradition of 2+ being the best you can get. Not to mention that it also adds modifiers to the game that's nasty enough to keep track of.

Lobukia wrote:As I've said before; To fix terminators, give them +1 Toughness and then +1 attack, let them buy 1 special and 1 heavy per 5 termies at normal costs. Leave points alone, and you're good.

Congratulations, you've given a sub-50 model upgrades worth approximately 20 points for free while also upgrading their weapon allowance. And that's counting the point cost of T lower than I *know* GW considers T to be worth.

gossipmeng wrote:I think their major flaw is how worthless a 2+ save can often be. They need to be more durable then they are now.

Perhaps give them re-rolls on their 5++? That way they are still resilient to ap3 and higher while not so easily killed off by ap1 and 2.

Well yes and no. It's a product of the game's weapon inflation. I'm tempted to say that it's because GW has cancelled their policy of only giving the good stuff to Marines and Necrons, but that'd be a bit unfair and petty. It's just that now every army has got the tools to take care of all threats (except a few cases of AA gone missing) and the games meta starting to shift.

Your suggestion is one of the more sane ones in terms of appropriate fix. The caveat would be that it should under no circumstances apply to a save other than the suit's own (i.e. NOT Storm Shields and NOT Divination psychics)

ClassicCarraway wrote:Leave the points as they are, give basic terminators a 4++ and make terminator stormbolters Assault 4. This makes them more durable against AP2, still makes them vulnerable to mass small arms fire (they do need some form of counter-balance), and allows a 5-man squad to lay down a crap ton of fire (sort of how their fluff always depicts them)

For the assault variety, let TH/SS assault termies count their shield as an additional specialist CCW (Shield Bash-S User, AP4, Concussion). Lightning Claw termies keep the 4++.

The thing with Assault Terminators is that they are super-scary in melee and they don't pay anything at all for their shield. They are the least in need of a buff and most likely in need of a point increase. There's nothing short of named characters that can actually stand up to them in melee and their tiny shields keep them safe from disproportionate amount of tactical nuclear devices and holes in the fabric of time and space. Their only real problem is "how do I get them into close combat?" and you're not addressing that at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
MadEdric, there's nothing special about Terminator Storm Bolters. It's just a lack-lustre weapon wherever it is used. Just keep in mind that while it is poor atm, it still shouldn't enable a single Terminator to clear out a whole squad of GEQ or Boys alone.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its been said before, but the ultimate way to fix terminators (and all 2+ Save infantry) is to revamp all weapons.

All weapons that are AP2 or better save Melta, Lance, and S9+ weapons should be reduced to AP3. Across the board, no exceptions.

Rending, Bladestorm, and Monofilament should be reduced to AP3. There simply is no reason that a low to medium strength attack can consistently slice through TEQ armour 1/6th of the time.

The only AP2 close combat attacks should be from basic weapons that have the Unwieldy special rule (unless its a relic equivalent). Also, MC and FMC base attacks are now AP3, and Smash attacks are AP2/Unwieldy.

Finally, 2+ saves should never, EVER be made available to any type of MC (looking at you Riptide). By nerfing weapons across the board, you leave MCs with 4 or more wounds AND a 2+ save even more powerful then they already are, and that would have to be addressed.

Sadly, none of this will ever happen.

Rending was designed specifically for two purposes: give Tyranids a way to deal with Terminators and give Tyranids a way to deal with vehicles. And by Tyranids, I mean Terminators' ancient nemesis, the Genestealers.
Then there's your beef with Eldar, there's a much larger snakes to be whacked in that codex to fix it. And by snakes I mean serpents, 'cause you sure don't get them to use them as transports. They're otherwise located on models that die to a stiff breeze so your target priority and weapon choice should be able to take care of the problem in a Darwinistic kind of way. Yes, I know, you'd need to use weapons on them that's not geared towards killing vehicles and MCs, which this edition is all about, but credit some variety where it exists, will you?

 Mahtamori wrote:

ClassicCarraway wrote:Leave the points as they are, give basic terminators a 4++ and make terminator stormbolters Assault 4. This makes them more durable against AP2, still makes them vulnerable to mass small arms fire (they do need some form of counter-balance), and allows a 5-man squad to lay down a crap ton of fire (sort of how their fluff always depicts them)

For the assault variety, let TH/SS assault termies count their shield as an additional specialist CCW (Shield Bash-S User, AP4, Concussion). Lightning Claw termies keep the 4++.

The thing with Assault Terminators is that they are super-scary in melee and they don't pay anything at all for their shield. They are the least in need of a buff and most likely in need of a point increase. There's nothing short of named characters that can actually stand up to them in melee and their tiny shields keep them safe from disproportionate amount of tactical nuclear devices and holes in the fabric of time and space. Their only real problem is "how do I get them into close combat?" and you're not addressing that at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
MadEdric, there's nothing special about Terminator Storm Bolters. It's just a lack-lustre weapon wherever it is used. Just keep in mind that while it is poor atm, it still shouldn't enable a single Terminator to clear out a whole squad of GEQ or Boys alone.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its been said before, but the ultimate way to fix terminators (and all 2+ Save infantry) is to revamp all weapons.

All weapons that are AP2 or better save Melta, Lance, and S9+ weapons should be reduced to AP3. Across the board, no exceptions.

Rending, Bladestorm, and Monofilament should be reduced to AP3. There simply is no reason that a low to medium strength attack can consistently slice through TEQ armour 1/6th of the time.

The only AP2 close combat attacks should be from basic weapons that have the Unwieldy special rule (unless its a relic equivalent). Also, MC and FMC base attacks are now AP3, and Smash attacks are AP2/Unwieldy.

Finally, 2+ saves should never, EVER be made available to any type of MC (looking at you Riptide). By nerfing weapons across the board, you leave MCs with 4 or more wounds AND a 2+ save even more powerful then they already are, and that would have to be addressed.

Sadly, none of this will ever happen.

Rending was designed specifically for two purposes: give Tyranids a way to deal with Terminators and give Tyranids a way to deal with vehicles. And by Tyranids, I mean Terminators' ancient nemesis, the Genestealers.
Then there's your beef with Eldar, there's a much larger snakes to be whacked in that codex to fix it. And by snakes I mean serpents, 'cause you sure don't get them to use them as transports. They're otherwise located on models that die to a stiff breeze so your target priority and weapon choice should be able to take care of the problem in a Darwinistic kind of way. Yes, I know, you'd need to use weapons on them that's not geared towards killing vehicles and MCs, which this edition is all about, but credit some variety where it exists, will you?

I think you over-estimate how effective Assault Terminators are, and yes, they are still overpriced because the only way they ever make it into combat is with the rather hefty LR tax. Not sure about you, but I feel that a 6-model unit that costs almost 500 points should be more than just somewhat effective. Most games, assault termies in a LR just don't make their points back as they are way too easily tied up and worn down, and don't even dream of walking them to combat. 40+ points for a single wound model with no shooting attack, Initiative 1, and average stats is just a bit too high and thus needs a little extra kick to justify the points cost. Not a huge increase mind you, but I think the extra attack and the option to switch to a faster but weaker attack evens them out.

And yes, maybe once upon a time, Rending was meant to give Genestealers a way to kill terminators, but unfortunately that is no longer the case. Everybody and their brother has Rending or an equivalent to it now. As for the beef against Eldar, meh, no more than any other non-Eldar player, but I do feel that reducing the amount of weapons with AP2 or better WOULD balance them out a bit. Sorry, but its not just WS that are making Eldar so OTT, its the WS when combined with all sheer amount of AP2 or better and overall absurd level of mobility that makes the Eldar so infuriating to play against. Take one of those elements out and you have some balance restored (if only just a little bit). After all, terminators (and to a larger extent MEQ in general) don't give one wit about Wave Serpent shooting, its normally the bladestorm-bearing Dire Avengers or absurdly powerful AP2 flamer templates that are carried in them that causes them grief.

Make them 5 points cheaper, make their heavy weapons half cost (or thereabouts) and allow for increased weapon options (such as the ability to take combi-weapons). For assault termies, you could give them a special rule that allows them to assault on the same turn they arrive (I'm not sure how balanced this would be, so perhaps only allowing them a charge range of say, 2/3 of the distance they rolled, would ensure that they weren't excessively effective).

I know this will be against the grain here, but as a person who plays both marines and xenos ...
(I have about 60 termies for my DA army, and 30 or so for my SM army - and about 20 paladins I am slowly making in a roman theme - I love termies).

Terminators are fine.

They no where near suck. Really.

Its our expctations that need to change - not termies.

I think its more players are not used to having them face their match. Maybe you would think those matches were more rare before, and thus the points should come down as AP2 shooty is more common, but honestly - I think its a good change.

Yeah, the game has more shots flying around...from almost all armies - yes, a 2+ save is not what it used to be.
But know what? a 3+ or 4+ is not either.
And with all the cover denying weapons - a 5+ is almost worthless.

Its all about expectations.

Now, what I would like to see are -
* more model diversity. Better arms and legs.
I had to do a lot of conversions to keep my termies "fresh".
* A cheaper heavy flamer would be nice, or an upgraded one with torrent.
* another transport option. LIke a beefy land speeder storm - dropping them off in a hotzone.
* options for one shot weapons - like a single shot hunter killer with skyfire, or some big poison round that has flesh bane for dealing with bio titans and wraithknights.
* an option for termie sgt to get a AP2 weapon.

I do agree however, that there feels like there are too many AP2 weapons out there.
And back when they made basic power weapons AP3, I prediced this would happen....
But, I am curious, do we have more or less effectively ap2 weapons? I think we have less CC versions, and more shooty.
So, while it feels like termies are the problem....I think its that there are just more AP2.
(or rending on a basic gun? ok, that is op).

Anyway, I know many may not agree...and thats fine.
I whole heartily suggest other players who think an army "sucks" play another army or a while - and not a "top tier" army.

I whole heartily suggest other players who think an army "sucks" play another army or a while - and not a "top tier" army.

Forgive but exactly do you mean by that? So if you think your codex is sub par in comparison to others, go build an army that isn't that one nor is it Daemons, Tau, Eldar, or Necrons? My apologies I just don't exactly get the point.

Anyways, the problem isn't really termies. Termies are kinda fine, okay for their price arguably balanced. The problem comes from there being so many DEVESTATING weapons (mainly ranged) that are so effecient for their price it doesn't matter

 StarTrotter wrote:
I whole heartily suggest other players who think an army "sucks" play another army or a while - and not a "top tier" army.

Forgive but exactly do you mean by that? So if you think your codex is sub par in comparison to others, go build an army that isn't that one nor is it Daemons, Tau, Eldar, or Necrons? My apologies I just don't exactly get the point.

My apologies for not being more clear with a bit of a rambly topic.



Basically, I see a lot of new players start with armies that may be "top tier" when they start with them. Well, once that army (or a build, seen that too) is no longer top tier - that player begins to feel that "just good" = sucks.
Where maybe a player with more experience or different expectations feels they are fine, but maybe things have shifted.

I remember the first time a friend of mine who had played power armor for a long time finally played a non power armor (marine) army - he had started to take BS4, WS4 3+ and ATSKNF for granted.
The new army he played did not have termies, or drop pods or ready access to invul saves for characters - also in playing another army he learned the other army's weaknesses that he had never noticed in playing against them.
When he would go back and play his marines again, he discovered he looked at them in a different perspective.
He felt it made him a better player - in both armies.

Another example - marines were not my first army, so I was used to not relying upon durable troops and good saves - I had to rely on cover a lot more.
When I started playing marines (I have um...a lot) I still learned to use cover - once plasma and other lower AP weapons become more common....I was already used to thinking about cover - some of my friends were not - and had a rough adjustment.

Anyways, the problem isn't really termies. Termies are kinda fine, okay for their price arguably balanced. The problem comes from there being so many DEVESTATING weapons (mainly ranged) that are so effecient for their price it doesn't matter

Actually,....THIS.
Star Trotter just summed up the point I was trying to make better than I did!!!

davethepak wrote:
I know this will be against the grain here, but as a person who plays both marines and xenos ...
(I have about 60 termies for my DA army, and 30 or so for my SM army - and about 20 paladins I am slowly making in a roman theme - I love termies).

Terminators are fine.

They no where near suck. Really.

Its our expctations that need to change - not termies.

I think its more players are not used to having them face their match. Maybe you would think those matches were more rare before, and thus the points should come down as AP2 shooty is more common, but honestly - I think its a good change.

Yeah, the game has more shots flying around...from almost all armies - yes, a 2+ save is not what it used to be.
But know what? a 3+ or 4+ is not either.
And with all the cover denying weapons - a 5+ is almost worthless.

Its all about expectations.

Now, what I would like to see are -
* more model diversity. Better arms and legs.
I had to do a lot of conversions to keep my termies "fresh".
* A cheaper heavy flamer would be nice, or an upgraded one with torrent.
* another transport option. LIke a beefy land speeder storm - dropping them off in a hotzone.
* options for one shot weapons - like a single shot hunter killer with skyfire, or some big poison round that has flesh bane for dealing with bio titans and wraithknights.
* an option for termie sgt to get a AP2 weapon.

I do agree however, that there feels like there are too many AP2 weapons out there.
And back when they made basic power weapons AP3, I prediced this would happen....
But, I am curious, do we have more or less effectively ap2 weapons? I think we have less CC versions, and more shooty.
So, while it feels like termies are the problem....I think its that there are just more AP2.
(or rending on a basic gun? ok, that is op).

Anyway, I know many may not agree...and thats fine.
I whole heartily suggest other players who think an army "sucks" play another army or a while - and not a "top tier" army.

I don't think anybody has really said terminators or Space Marines suck. Terminators just aren't as effective as their points cost (and fluff) would indicate. They need a kick in the pants to put them up to their points cost, especially the tactical variety.

"Terminators aren't really the problem, everything else has changed around them" has been repeated a few times now. If everything else has changed, but terminators haven't, then the problem lies with the terminators. Lets have a look at the codex entries shall we?

3rd Edition: 42 points per model. Same weapon load-outs and prices available as 6th. Up to 2 models may take a heavy weapon. Free TH/SS.
4th Edition: 40 points per model. Same weapon load-outs available. Up to 2 models may take a heavy weapon. Free TH/SS. May spend 3pts per model to gain tank hunters or furious charge.
5th Edition: 40 points per model. Same weapon load-outs available, one model in 5 may have a heavy weapon. HF is 5 pts, other options are 30pts. Free TH/SS.
6th Edition: 40 points per model. Same weapon load-outs available. one model in 5 may have a heavy weapon. TH/SS cost 5 points,

Other notes:
CML improved between 3rd and 4th to not replace the model's powerfist, and between 4th and 5th, where it got to fire an extra missile.
SS got much better with their blanket 3++ save in 5th ed.
Assault cannon stopped jamming, got an extra shot and rending throughout the editions.
Deep strike rules got better and worse between editions, 6th edition rules are quite favourable, however unints now have intercept which can be a problem.

Ok so what can we get out of this?
First of all we can see the price of terminators has practically remained the same for the past 14 years, in fact the cost of TH/SS assault squads has increased by 5 points (to balance the new SS rules).
Their armoury has remained entirely unchanged, with only blanket weapon changes effecting them.
Between 4th and 5th they lost the option of having 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad.
In 4th edition they had the option to choose tank hunters, combined with 2 Assault cannons this could do pretty decent damage to vehicles.

So overall, in the last 14 years (3rd edition codex was 1999) terminators have remained pretty static points wise, now receive less heavy weapons per 5 man squad and have had a storm shield buff, although they do pay 5 points for the privilege.
(PS: The SS 3++ buff used to give terminators something to do in apocalypse, but the new D weapon rules totally ignore this.)

Personally, with the addition of so many other units and weapons in the game through codex creep, as well as points reductions in other models, it seems now more than ever that terminators need some kind of improvement to once again make them competitive.

Seems like everyone believes the only Terminators are those of Space Marines. Wonder how some feel for Chaos.

Suicide troops used to be one of our few ways of deploying any way besides footslogging/driving a fragile rhino built to go in, ignore our combi weapons, default to our combi meltas and plasmas, hope to claim first blood, watch them get slaughtered. Fear the mighty of chaos! We shall suicide them!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Seems like everyone believes the only Terminators are those of Space Marines. Wonder how some feel for Chaos.

Chaos terminators have several advantages over their SM counterparts:
- They cost 9 points less base (and 3 points less if upgraded with a power fist)
- they can be taken in squads as small as 3
- all models have access to combi weapons
- They can mix ranged and assault weapons (like DA)
- Marks can upgrade their toughness or invulnerable save (although this is costly)
- Squad can get FNP (requires mark of slaanesh on every model so can be expensive)
- Alternatively they can gain fearless, which helps to counter their lack of ATSKNF

The down sides:
- No ATSKNF as base
- No TH/SS
- Less heavy weapon choices

Overall Chaos terminators have a lot more versatility than imperial ones, and the lower base cost with the option of many different upgrades allows them to fit desired roles better. However they can become quite costly and of course miss out on that 3++ SS save, (though tzeentch 4++ is kind of close).

Are they underpowered or need a buff? I wouldn't want to say, as I don't play them.

Are they underpowered or need a buff? I wouldn't want to say, as I don't play them.

Most of those points end up why our Terminators are usually used in the 'Suicide Combi-X' role, rather then any meaningful choice otherwise. The upgrades put them as too expensive when it comes to certain tasks, so they are usually just taken naked with combi-X with axes or mauls to maximize damage afterwords. I've yet to see anyone take the heavy weapon choices because they are far too expensive. (Give me a heavy daemon ranged weapon like the Heart-Ripper at least!)

Still, 112 points for 3 combi weapons and power axes and a 3 man squad with 2+,5++ isn't all that bad.

I would hazard a guess that chaos termies are used in more lists than SM ones, 100 points is much easier to fit in than the 220 base for marines. This, or that the chaos elites are so badly balanced that chaos termies are one of the few viable options.

Okay yeah chaos elites are pretty pants. Another reason is its one of our only alternate means of deployment. We have 0 scouts, only terminators and the jump pack units as deepstrikes, two characters (one of debatable use and another that is generally considered pretty sub par) that give us d3 infiltrate which is entirely random and so unreliable so one cannot entirely rely on a roll, and then a single roll of the d6 giving you a chance to get that warlord trait. Keep in mind this requires csm to be your main army force. The CSM termies fill a void that very few other things can take up (and really out of the jump units, one is useless and the other is meh raptors) and so, whilst sub par, will deployed even if thehy are only fit to be brought in for some guns and then dying painful deaths.

EDIT: Other DS units are Obliterators which are very good and Mutilators which are a distraction/suicide unit that at best can distract the enemy for a bit but will never even get any kills.

Allow assault on the turn they deep strike as well as a minor points reduction

You know, I never really though about it like this but my friend suggested they simply get FNP 4+ (Special rule given that they ALWAYS can roll for it, even against ID weapons of str 8+)

Would that make them better? I sure think so! At least that way that TA is getting put to better use...

I would give them twin-linked bolters since Termies are going to be within "12" most of the time.

As a small buff to DA termies, I would love to see a points drop to match their SM counter parts, and also see a change to DW assault that would let them ignore the 50% rule for reserves (ie: they can act like a drop pod army).

Something besides teleport homers that would reduce scatter would be nice too, although this is asking for a little much.

I really don't think tons of inventive special rules are needed just:

- A points decrease
- Changing Storm Bolters to Assault 3 and AP4
- Something to improve their DS, only minor, maybe allowing them to DS 2" apart in a circle, if they wish.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
As a small buff to DA termies, I would love to see a points drop to match their SM counter parts, and also see a change to DW assault that would let them ignore the 50% rule for reserves (ie: they can act like a drop pod army).

Something besides teleport homers that would reduce scatter would be nice too, although this is asking for a little much.

But we have teleport homers on our bikes, and it is super fun to deepstrike on that lone Ravenwing bike left and then just shredding everything. I do agree with you on the reserves part however.

To further my point about tactical termies - as compared to assault termies who are only in an assault role, it's kinda sucky that even tactical termies are still at their best in assault. Yet obviously worse off than dedicated assault terminators. They just don't have enough firepower to be worth it in a ranged role. Two heavies per five would help, as storm bolters are hardly great and for shooting you'd often be better off bringing massed regular bolters instead give you pay 14 points per bolter instead of 40 per storm bolter and can be scoring to boot! Also cheaper mechanized transport options - DS is free, but not really always reliable.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
What do you guys think about centurions minus the looks?

They are units with S5, T5, W2 and 2+ Slow and Purposeful, they can move, shoot, and assault! They can each fire two weapons, with awesome graveguns.

Yes they dont have an invuln but hey stick them in bolstered cover for a pretty resilient unit.

I honestly love the concept of Centurions. A powerframe that holds multiple heavy weapons/ breeching assault weapons that the space marine steps into. Its not new armor, its add on to existing armor. That it gives +1 tough and wounds (and str I believe?) goes along with the basic idea and is a step between space marines and Dreadknights. The new rules for the weapons fire are great too. I even think the models are ok.

Only problem with Centurions (maybe a bit overpointed) is I feel much of this is what terminators should be. But if terminators are not heavy weapon platforms then lets use that name to good effect, IE, they are as hard to destroy as the original Terminator from the movie (always wondered if they maybe got the name from there). Increase their toughness, wounds and give their armor special rules for save. Maybe the armor gets a 4+ invun save instead of 5+ and they get to roll their invun save if they fail their armor save. Maybe too much for 40 points, but right now they are too easy to kill, so cannot provide multiple rounds of fire, and don't have enough heavy firepower to make worth fielding.

In regards to buffing the storm bolter on terminator armor without screwing up storm bolters across the board and/or making grey knights more powerful, just make it so that models in terminator armor can fire a storm bolter twice per shooting phase, no heavy weapons in termie squads can do the same just the storm bolters, not combi weapons either, it can be represented by the amors capability to absorb the recoil with ease and carrying so much ammo to do it.

It also boosts grey knight termie squads and not the power armour squads.

Brother Payne wrote:Allow assault on the turn they deep strike as well as a minor points reduction

Never going to happen. 6th edition has systematically removed every "assault from reserves" unit and ability from the game. The only one I remember still existing is the Ymgarl Genestealers, and they are looking down the barrel of the nerf guns next month. So nope.

GoliothOnline wrote:You know, I never really though about it like this but my friend suggested they simply get FNP 4+ (Special rule given that they ALWAYS can roll for it, even against ID weapons of str 8+)

Would that make them better? I sure think so! At least that way that TA is getting put to better use...

This is one my of my suggestions. Instead of their 5+ invulnerable, switch it to a 4+ or 5+ FnP save....explained below.

sing your life wrote:I would give them twin-linked bolters since Termies are going to be within "12" most of the time.

This is a step backwards technologically, as storm bolters are the evolution of twin-bolter combi-weapons fluff wise. No fluff reason for this, even if there is a game play reason for it.

The Shadow wrote:I really don't think tons of inventive special rules are needed just:

- A points decrease
- Changing Storm Bolters to Assault 3 and AP4
- Something to improve their DS, only minor, maybe allowing them to DS 2" apart in a circle, if they wish.

You can't change storm bolters game wide, it affects WAY too many units. Rhinos with 2 assault 3 AP4 weapons? Every possible sergeant would take it. 7 point Henchmen with fire power almost equal to 20+ point noise marines? God, the entire GK codex would basically explode overnight into an over powered cheese fest that it was in 5th edition, but with a 24" range instead of melee only.

My philosophy about unit design;

Every unit consists of 3 parts; Offensive power, defensive power and utility/special abilities/intangibles, these are what make up it's point cost.

Offensively Tactical terminators suck. They don't compare favorably to 2 tactical marines in a gun fight, and cost 42% more. They stack up well in melee against tactical marines, but they stack up poorly against even mediocre melee units due to a lack of attack and inability to bring their damage to bear against optimal targets. Eg, powerfists are great against MCs, but MCs wreck them before they get to swing. They are also extremely poor against horde units, as the amount of over kill the powerfist provides and the lack of attacks means they can be pulled down by weight of attacks.

Defensively Tactical terminators suck. They stack up poorly against tactical marines against every single weapon in the game except AP3. It takes the same amount of bolter shots to kill 28 points of tactical marines as it does to kill 40 points of terminator. That's not cool, especially for the "best personal protection in the galaxy".

Special ability wise, Tactical terminators suck. They don't bring anything to the table that an equal points value of something else couldn't do better. They best you could say about them in this regard is that they have not insignificant firepower, and not awful melee ability on the same platform...but there's other units that can do either, or both, better for the points.

So, where do we start? Knowing that your terminator loadouts are not going to change, other than maybe going back to 2 heavies per 5, or maybe allowing the plasma cannon into vanilla books what can you really do?

Well, let's start on the offensive side of things. My ideas;
- Since the storm bolter can't change, maybe allow them to "double tap" them? So allow them to fire the storm bolters twice per turn, making them essentially assault 4. This would make them better than tactical marines, bolter wise > 12", but still worse <12", point for point.
- Bump to WS and BS5? Unlikely, since it would mean changing vanguard, sternguard and every other veteran in the game to this level, but they DID have WS and BS 5 in 2nd edition. It's an idea, but I think it's implications are too far reaching for this discussion.
- Make their storm bolters twin-linked? Call it "bigger magazines" or "improved ammo feeds" or something. Not a huge improvement, and probably still not enough for 40 points.
- Melee wise, the powerfist has issues. Always swinging at I1 makes them axe and enemy powerfist fodder. I'm a fan of allowing Terminator armor to swing I1 weapons at I2, call it something like "improved muscle fiber-bundles". This puts them ahead of stunned/concussed and swinging at I1 weapons, without massively unbalancing the melee game, as swinging a powerfist at I4 or I5 would be overpowered for 50+ points, let alone 40,

Defensively;
-We can't get better than a 2+ save, it's just not a thing anymore, so that leaves additional saves as our only options. Drop the 5++ invul and give them 5+ FnP would be a start. I might even be able to be convinced that a 4+ FnP is fair. A 5+ FnP would put them slightly better than tactical marines. The vulnerability to S8+ AP2 weapons has me leaning towards a 4+ FnP personally. This also allows cover saves to actually MEAN something to terminators, as currently, if the only saves around are 5+, why not just stand in the open?
-Other ideas include going to T5, which makes them better than tacticals actually....Wow, +1T bump is pretty huge against small arms. It's as good as having a 5+ FnP against bolter fire.
-Going to 2 wounds is another idea, but I'm not completely sure what you would have to do to their points costs to accommodate this. Taking Paladins, Attack bikes, Red butchers, Wraiths and the like as examples, we might have to go up to 43-45 points per model.

Special/utility/intangible rule wise; I don't think terminators really need anything super special. You could allow access to some of the old veteran skills like infiltrate, furious charge, tank hunters, some manner of precision deep strike any number of other oddities.

My "ideal" tactical terminator squad;
200 points, comes with assault 4 storm bolters, I2 power fists and a 4+ FnP instead of the 5++ invul, and access to 2 heavy weapons from the current lists.

200 points of tactical marines (14.28 of them) vs 200 points of my ideal terminators (5);
Bolter shots to kill (BS4); Tactical marines ~128 , Terminators: ~180. Win for terminators, and rightly so, as terminator armor should be better against small arms. Still, not a HUGE win here.
Plasma shots to kill (BS4); Tactical marines ~25.7, Terminators; ~18. Terminators still lose out to plasma, but less so than previously thanks to the 4+ FnP over the 5++ invul. Cover will also increase BOTH of the unit's survivability equally.
S8+ AP2+ shots to kill; Tactical marines ~25.7, Terminators; ~9. Worse for the terminators than the current number of 13.5, but that's FnP vs the invul save for you.

Overall, makes heavy weapons better against terminators, and small arms less effective. Terminators are no worst off with these stats than they are now if they are in cover though.

I think the power level is fine, it's the cost that kills them. 40 points before upgrades is crazy for a single wound, T4 model with the proliferation of cheap massed fire and AP2.

Drop basic terms to 26 points, have TH/SS cost +5 per model, and i think you're in business exactly as they are (the other point upgrades can remain).



If you keep the points the way they are, fine - the invul. save goes to 4++, storm bolters fired by a model wearing terminator armor become Assault 3. I almost want to say "give terms the Deathwing Knight ability that gives +1 toughness when in BtB with 2 more more other models in the unit", but that might be a bit over the top with the 2 other things.

 Haight wrote:
I think the power level is fine, it's the cost that kills them. 40 points before upgrades is crazy for a single wound, T4 model with the proliferation of cheap massed fire and AP2.

Drop basic terms to 26 points, have TH/SS cost +5 per model, and i think you're in business exactly as they are (the other point upgrades can remain).

26 is too far for the storm bolter/powerfist variety. I mean, an honor guard model is 25, and terminators upgrade from a power weapon to fist, 2+ to 2+/5++, ability to deepstrike and bolter to storm bolter. 30 would the absolute least current tactical terminators should cost IMO, with 32 being more fitting.

The best option and most elegant I've ever heard was to just give them a 1+ save (still fail on a 1, but survive ap2). The biggest disconnect in recent times is the advent of the AP 2 blast removing them. Termies are rather sufficient in surviving small arms fire, they die to just about the correct amount of non ap2 shooting, they are a gamble unit that feel worth it except against the demolisher shell or plasma russ. With that a point decrease isnt really needed. Barring that giving two heavies per 5 again would probably do the trick.

 lazarian wrote:
The best option and most elegant I've ever heard was to just give them a 1+ save (still fail on a 1, but survive ap2). The biggest disconnect in recent times is the advent of the AP 2 blast removing them. Termies are rather sufficient in surviving small arms fire, they die to just about the correct amount of non ap2 shooting, they are a gamble unit that feel worth it except against the demolisher shell or plasma russ. With that a point decrease isnt really needed. Barring that giving two heavies per 5 again would probably do the trick.

Not happening, for multiple reasons.

1. It would have weird interactions with grav weapons....being wounded on a 1+, and still getting your 2+ save....doesn't make much sense.
2. There are several armies that a terminator heavy force would render virtually obsolete. Weight of fire would be the ONLY way to kill them, as melta and railgun fire would be the only other effective weapons. What happens to a force that doesn't have access to rail or melta fire, but relies on AP2 firepower? Eldar, dark eldar, most of the Tau lists out there these days, even your standard space marine lists these days would be screwed because they lack the volume of fire needed to take terminators by attrition, and don't have the melta to blast them off the table.
3. It doesn't help at all versus small arms fire.

Contrary to your beliefs, terminators are AWFUL against small arms fire. Here's a quick chart showing why. This chart shows how much the various unit takes in damage, per point, per bs4 bolter shot.

Vanilla Tactical marine (14 points, 9 shots to kill): 1.55
Tactical terminator (40 points, 18 shots to kill): 2.22
Space Marine Honor Guard (25 points, 18 shots to kill): 1.38
Space marine biker (21 points, 13.5 shots to kill): 1.55
Firewarrior (9 points, 4.5 shots to kill): 2
Guardsman/termigant (5 points, 2.25 shots to kill): 2.22
Ork Boy (6 points, 3 shots to kill): 2
Genestealer (14 points, 3 shots to kill): 4.66 (This, FYI, is why genestealers SUCK BALLS)

Lower number the better. Terminators have the same survivability point for point as guardsmen STANDING IN THE OPEN. At least guardsmen can hide behind a shrub to increase their survivability, whereas terminators cannot. THIS IMO is the primary failing of terminators, and what needs to be fixed the worst.

After reading through the latest posts, I got a few ideas. I guess the main question is, how do we "fix" Space Marine Tactical Terminators without inadvertently buffing up other units (in C:SM and other codexes) that use some of the same equipment? The obvious example is that buffing Storm Bolters and Terminator Armor itself will also buff Grey Knights in general, and other Storm Bolter wielding units (Rhinos, etc.).

1. Make Tactical Terminators a scoring unit. They're supposed to be the guys you send in when nobody else can do the job.
2. Make their Storm Bolters master-crafted. This will slightly boost their shooting ability, without affecting Storm Bolters anywhere else. These are the elite veterans after all, they should be carrying the good Storm Bolters.
3. Allow them two heavy weapons for every five Terminators. What's the point of being a relentless firing platform if you only get to carry one weapon that benefits from it?
4. Replace the power fist with a power weapon as default, with options to upgrade to powerfists and chainfists. This allows the choice between mauls, swords, and axes. depending on your preferences.
5. Reduce them to 35 points base. This accounts for the removal of the premium powerfist, but the addition of the master-crafted Storm Bolters and becoming a scoring unit.