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Martel732 wrote:
Doubling down on bad weapons won't make terminators good. Both the AC and ML are bad weapons.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. As I said, though, BT Terminators with dual weapons did just fine until they were removed.

I love the concept of "support". What is "support"? There's nothing I can do to keep shooting armies from targeting exactly what they want except for LOS blocking terrain and being out of range. There is no "support' that makes terminators good or viable. They are T4 dudes who eat 16% of the wounds they are dealt. T4 is now stupid easy to spam wounds against, and it isn't hard at all to cripple a squad of 5.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Doubling down on bad weapons won't make terminators good. Both the AC and ML are bad weapons.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. As I said, though, BT Terminators with dual weapons did just fine until they were removed.

BT terminators with Tank Hunter that did +1 for pen. I've never seen them without Tank Hunters with that configuration.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Doubling down on bad weapons won't make terminators good. Both the AC and ML are bad weapons.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. As I said, though, BT Terminators with dual weapons did just fine until they were removed.

By what exactly do you mean "did just fine"? Because I don't think they were doing fine at all in 6th. They were getting erased like every other teq. Neither of their dual weapons could scratch the paint on a Riptide, for example.

Doing fine inasmuch as they were slightly less crappy than regular Space Marine terminators.

Slightly less crappy than terrible is still terrible. Even if they were 30 pts, that's still more than twice a marine and they are statistically no more durable except against AP 3. Let's be honest here, who messes with AP 3 when they can get AP 2 on the cheap now?

But as to not appear to troll, let me see here. If GW wants me to spend *40* pts per terminator, they're going to have to be a lot more fearsome. The current obstacles are volume of fire AND popularity of cheap AP 2. These are non-trivial problems for sure. I think they're going to have to get T5 W2 2+/5++, make stormbolters 30" salvo 2/4 and make the assault cannon ROF 6. This would be competitive with Xeno lists. That's how little they are bringing for 40 pts right now. A big reason is because the powerfist it T-totally useless because they get shot before they can use it.

If your terminators are in a Land Raider, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are in a Storm Raven, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are waiting to deep strike, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside bike or jump units, I won't be shooting them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside heavy support units, I won't be shooting them.

If you want your terminators to be more survivable against Tau, keep them out of harms way until the time is right to close the distance. Give me things that are more pressing to worry about and my attention will be on those. If I spend time attacking a unit that won't be a threat the first couple of turns (like terminators) then I've screwed up because it means one of your immediatly threatening units just got a free pass.

I know the riptide is a scary beast, but it goes down hard and fast to Grav weapons and to a lesser extent Lascannons and Plasma. That big plate is nasty, but it isn't infallible. Fun fact, if you come out of reserves and they use interceptor on the plate, it can't ignore cover and doesn't get the ballistic skill boost. You also get a chance to kill it before your terminators are on the board.

If a model with a 2+/5++ isn't survivable enough, its not the fault of the model.

I would rather see them +2 toughness then +1 toughness +1 wound. To represent that while massively hard to hurt, when something big does hurt them, they die. But it enables them to shrug off massive amounts of small fire. Plus it makes them different from Centurions.

Jefffar wrote:
If your terminators are in a Land Raider, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are in a Storm Raven, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are waiting to deep strike, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside bike or jump units, I won't be shooting them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside heavy support units, I won't be shooting them.

If you want your terminators to be more survivable against Tau, keep them out of harms way until the time is right to close the distance. Give me things that are more pressing to worry about and my attention will be on those. If I spend time attacking a unit that won't be a threat the first couple of turns (like terminators) then I've screwed up because it means one of your immediatly threatening units just got a free pass.

I know the riptide is a scary beast, but it goes down hard and fast to Grav weapons and to a lesser extent Lascannons and Plasma. That big plate is nasty, but it isn't infallible. Fun fact, if you come out of reserves and they use interceptor on the plate, it can't ignore cover and doesn't get the ballistic skill boost. You also get a chance to kill it before your terminators are on the board.

If a model with a 2+/5++ isn't survivable enough, its not the fault of the model.

If only it were that simple. The terminators in transports are just dead points while they are in the transport as well. Meqs lists can't afford that against Xeno lists now. Tau/Eldar can erase multiple squads/vehicles per turn and so I feel that your "solution" is a poor one. Bad units are just bad units and doubling down by trying to make them good is just more points down the rabbit hole. The bottom line is that the terminators could have been more grav bikers or a unit that's actually good. Or at least decent.

If my lowly BA can handle terminators in transports, the mighty Tau/Eldar should have no trouble at all. And I can.

"That big plate is nasty, but it isn't infallible"

Good thing, because when it works, marines just straight up lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I would rather see them +2 toughness then +1 toughness +1 wound. To represent that while massively hard to hurt, when something big does hurt them, they die. But it enables them to shrug off massive amounts of small fire. Plus it makes them different from Centurions.

That's cool too. I'm not picky. But 40pts/model is a fething fortune in 6th.

Jefffar wrote:
If your terminators are in a Land Raider, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are in a Storm Raven, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are waiting to deep strike, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside bike or jump units, I won't be shooting them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside heavy support units, I won't be shooting them.

If you want your terminators to be more survivable against Tau, keep them out of harms way until the time is right to close the distance. Give me things that are more pressing to worry about and my attention will be on those. If I spend time attacking a unit that won't be a threat the first couple of turns (like terminators) then I've screwed up because it means one of your immediatly threatening units just got a free pass.

I know the riptide is a scary beast, but it goes down hard and fast to Grav weapons and to a lesser extent Lascannons and Plasma. That big plate is nasty, but it isn't infallible. Fun fact, if you come out of reserves and they use interceptor on the plate, it can't ignore cover and doesn't get the ballistic skill boost. You also get a chance to kill it before your terminators are on the board.

If a model with a 2+/5++ isn't survivable enough, its not the fault of the model.

You're working from the faulty logic that I can field not only a well equipped terminator unit, but a 300~ point container for them while still having a whole army to face you with while this gargantuan point sink... does what exactly? Stays out of harms way apparently.

In ALL of the situations you describe, they aren't doing anything either. You're telling us that the units are fine because if we don't field them you can't kill them. That's fantastic.

I'm telling you that you can't expect terminators (or anything else for that matter) to just walk across no mans land unmolested. You have to use something to get them there or something to keep the enemy busy until the terminators are close enough to do their job.

Land Raiders and Stormravens do the former very effectively. Bikers and high firepower units do the later.

I'm not saying terminators don't need to change, a points going down slightly and an offense going up slightly (about Wolf Guard with slightly cheaper options) would go a long way to helping them out, but they are quite survivable now if you play them with care and thought.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm telling you that you can't expect terminators (or anything else for that matter) to just walk across no mans land unmolested. You have to use something to get them there or something to keep the enemy busy until the terminators are close enough to do their job.

Land Raiders and Stormravens do the former very effectively. Bikers and high firepower units do the later.

I'm not saying terminators don't need to change, a points going down slightly and an offense going up slightly (about Wolf Guard with slightly cheaper options) would go a long way to helping them out, but they are quite survivable now if you play them with care and thought.

*Sigh* I've been playing marines a long time. I've known this for a long time. My primary point is that the terminators themselves aren't worth all the effort of delivering them to a point. And the methods are either a) very expensive or b) very unreliable. There is no amount of care or thought that will save your terminators from Xeno firepower. Xenos can frag fresh squads in a single turn now, and terminators will be exposed sooner or later. Not to mention all the other units you are not taking in order to bring crappy terminators and their marginal delivery systems.

Which is why I say fix their offensive output relative to their points cost (slight increase the former, slight decrease the latter). Trying to make them more survivable through Toughness, Wounds or Saves is only really going to require a points increase and won't make them terribly more effective anyway. The best bet is hard counters to what's killing them.

If they are dying to volume of fire, lay a bunch of big blasts on those masses of troops. Do you have any idea how scary a Whirlwind or Thunderfire is to me as a Tau player? Even with cover I can expect to lose a large chunk of troops. If I brought triptide I don't have many troops to begin with so you've probably prevented me from being able to score. Likewise those weapons are murder on pathfinders or marker drones, removing those means the riptide plate can't ignore cover anymore.

Also bring a lot of Lascannons, they instant death crisis suits and broadsides removing a lot of potential AP 1 and 2 (especially in Farsight lists). They also do a number on Riptides.

Maybe I am looking at this too much as a Tau player. For years we've had to find ways around the weaknesses of a unit while many other codexes had units that were generally strong all around, but to me its more about how the units work together than about how each unit works.

At the rate terminators die, *slight* changes won't work. Compared to a 14 pt meq, they are pitifully not resilient.

Unfortunately, marines can't bring blast weapons, and termiantors, and terminator delivery systems, and lots of lascannons in a balanced list.

Also the unfortunate reality is that Riptides only need to get three or four solid shots in to cripple most marine lists. Three or four whirlwind hits is not crippling any list.

Looking at it from the perspective of even BA, terminators are a "so what?" unit. Their damage output is laughable for their points.

Rumbleguts wrote:
I would rather see them +2 toughness then +1 toughness +1 wound. To represent that while massively hard to hurt, when something big does hurt them, they die. But it enables them to shrug off massive amounts of small fire. Plus it makes them different from Centurions.

I think T6 might be just a bit to much.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I would rather see them +2 toughness then +1 toughness +1 wound. To represent that while massively hard to hurt, when something big does hurt them, they die. But it enables them to shrug off massive amounts of small fire. Plus it makes them different from Centurions.

I think T6 might be just a bit to much.

Why? Wraithguard have it. And better guns. Much better guns.

Wraithguard are just walking suits. Terminators have a person inside. T6 is ridiculously overboard IMO, like T5 Cents.

Jefffar wrote:
Which is why I say fix their offensive output relative to their points cost (slight increase the former, slight decrease the latter). Trying to make them more survivable through Toughness, Wounds or Saves is only really going to require a points increase and won't make them terribly more effective anyway. The best bet is hard counters to what's killing them.

If they are dying to volume of fire, lay a bunch of big blasts on those masses of troops. Do you have any idea how scary a Whirlwind or Thunderfire is to me as a Tau player? Even with cover I can expect to lose a large chunk of troops. If I brought triptide I don't have many troops to begin with so you've probably prevented me from being able to score. Likewise those weapons are murder on pathfinders or marker drones, removing those means the riptide plate can't ignore cover anymore.

Also bring a lot of Lascannons, they instant death crisis suits and broadsides removing a lot of potential AP 1 and 2 (especially in Farsight lists). They also do a number on Riptides.

Maybe I am looking at this too much as a Tau player. For years we've had to find ways around the weaknesses of a unit while many other codexes had units that were generally strong all around, but to me its more about how the units work together than about how each unit works.

Okay, so lets not improve them defensively. A terminator has the survivability of and damage output at range of ~28-30 points of MeQ troops, give or take. That means we need a 10-12 point boost in ranged damage output if we are going to "balance" them.....That's basically assault cannons for ALL tactical terminators to even it out, which sounds about right.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I would rather see them +2 toughness then +1 toughness +1 wound. To represent that while massively hard to hurt, when something big does hurt them, they die. But it enables them to shrug off massive amounts of small fire. Plus it makes them different from Centurions.

I think T6 might be just a bit to much.

Why? Wraithguard have it. And better guns. Much better guns.

Wraithgaurd also are made of waithbone (one of the strongest substances in the universe) and are entirely made of it, not just a person in a suit. They also only have a 3+ save, no invuln, only one attack, a low initiative (for a unit that is both eldar, and often dedicated assaut), and are pretty expensive.
Edit: their guns are also only 12" on a unit that is no very fast, and don't have battle focus.

And we're back to, how do we "fix" the tactical terminators (as most of us seem to agree that the assault terminators are just fine at their job) because the shooty terminators basically suck at theirs. Equal points of power armor marines will outshoot them. I don't want changes to the terminator armor or storm bolters themselves, as any changes made to the specific wargear would apply to all such instances of that wargear throughout the game.
So, what do we do the terminator squad itself, and nothing else?

Points reduction?
Extra (and/or cheaper) heavy weapons?
Special rules that let them reroll missed shots (or get extra shots), or something similar?

Put terminators in a Land Raider, Taudar kill the Land Raider then the terminators.

Put terminators in a Storm Raven, Taudar kill the Storm Raven then the terminators.

Deep strike terminators, Taudar intercept and kill the terminators.

Put terminators alongside bikes or jump pack units, Taudar kill the small number of bikes you can afford after paying for the terminators, then kill the terminators.

Missing anything?

Each five man terminator squad is ten bikes. Just spend those terminator points buying bikes instead. Mobility, toughness, firepower and a Chapter Trait that actually boosts bikes.

Take more bikes.

Kind of inspiration from the Iron Hands legion rules... why not have the strength and AP of ranged weapons fired at them reduced by one. So plasma guns would be s6 ap3. bladestorm would resolve at ap3. Things like powerfists and MC would still force them to fall back to their invulnerable, but for 40 some ppm you should definitely get something cool

Terminators have rules that accurately reflect their role in the fluff. So the only change required is to reprice them.

Points reduction seems to be to most viable fix. However, another option might be an adjustment to the TDA special rules. Allow TDA models the option to start in reserves outside of the 50% limit, with a Deep Strike Assault style rule inherent with wearing TDA. Does not have to be a first turn arrival, but could be an accurate DS, or a free move upon arrival, or a Blind effect upon arrival via "Teleportation Assault". Basically, an inherent ability for TDA take equals the points difference between how much they cost now and how much they should cost.

SJ

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Terminators have rules that accurately reflect their role in the fluff. So the only change required is to reprice them.

Demonstrably untrue. In the fluff, they are feared. On the table top, they are laughed at.

Seems like a lot of people on here have GW syndrome - when GW screws up a rule or point cost, they "fix" it by changing other things in the game to compensate.

Terminators are fine except for maybe minor tweaking; it's the addition of much more capable enemy firepower that makes them seem unworthy. So when GW throws a few overpowered units into the mix everyone seems to want everything else in the game to be more powerful or cheaper. So if you boost terminators, then what? Oh, now tacticals are underpowered. Oh wait, now its veterans or bikes or nobs and tyranid warriors or whatever!

Quit chasing your tails. The problem rests mainly with the newer (mostly Tau/Eldar) goodies. Fix them instead.

Too late for that. And terminators are a joke for marine lists as well. Grav guns?

And tacticals should be underpowered compared to elites. In fact, I think elites should be the most potent slot for every list, because they can never score. It's called balance.

Jefffar wrote:
If your terminators are in a Land Raider, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are in a Storm Raven, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are waiting to deep strike, I can't shoot them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside bike or jump units, I won't be shooting them.

If your terminators are on the field alongside heavy support units, I won't be shooting them.

If you want your terminators to be more survivable against Tau, keep them out of harms way until the time is right to close the distance. Give me things that are more pressing to worry about and my attention will be on those. If I spend time attacking a unit that won't be a threat the first couple of turns (like terminators) then I've screwed up because it means one of your immediatly threatening units just got a free pass.

I know the riptide is a scary beast, but it goes down hard and fast to Grav weapons and to a lesser extent Lascannons and Plasma. That big plate is nasty, but it isn't infallible. Fun fact, if you come out of reserves and they use interceptor on the plate, it can't ignore cover and doesn't get the ballistic skill boost. You also get a chance to kill it before your terminators are on the board.

If a model with a 2+/5++ isn't survivable enough, its not the fault of the model.

I wish Tau players would actually do the math on how many lascannon shots it takes to kill a 2+/5++ Riptide. Not to mention it can be 3++ and FnP.

And you can protect Terminators just fine with Stormravens and Land Raiders, you're right. You just have to pay for units that cost even more than a Riptide and die more easily. Looking at 2+/5++ alone is asinine when you consider the fact that one is on a T4 W1 model and the other is on a MC with jetpacks and 72" range.

Well if you want to compare a 40 point infantry model with a 200 or so point Monstrous Creature, of course you are losing out.

How about allies to apples this time.

I'd say the Eldar Wraithguard and the Necron Wraiths are probably the closest practical equivalent to the terminator. Wraiths are more survivable, but also ridiculously underpriced (a close approximation of their abilities is a Thunderwolf Cavalry with a Storm Shield - 80 points or so). Wraiths have that huge toughness going for them.

But again, survivability isnt the issue to me. It's their cost versus their offensive returns that seems to be the problem.

To be honest, I think what's holding the terminators back is the overcosted Powerfists and Thunderhammers. Assault is not as good as it once was but those weapons are still bein priced to high.

On a tactical terminator with a power weapon we have two examples that cost less than 35 points (Chaos and Space Wolves). They seem to be the right basic price. The extra 5 to 10 for the mandatory Powerfists seems to be the killer. So going to Power weapons and a points cost in the 30 to 35 points range seems to be a reasonable starting point. Then knock down most of the upgrades and you'd have a unit that is tough, but not too tough, has a good offensive punch, and is t so costly that it causes pain when you lose it.

I still wouldn't pay 35 or even 30 pts for a terminator with a power weapon. It's still T4 W1. Garbage. 2+ armor is now overcosted because of weapons available in other lists.