How would you improve terminators?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Carnage43**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Carnage43 wrote:
IHateNids wrote:
how about both a +1T & the lowers AP by one? or is that too much?

you are still gonna splat them with AT weapons, and you are not gonna be wounding them that much with small arms

I don't think the "lowers AP value by 1" is a good idea. It would set a dangerous precedent, and you would see it popping up everywhere....suddenly you'd be looking at plasma-immune Draigo/Lysander today, and plasma immune monstrous creatures a year later. Suddenly AP2 is worthless and melta is the new mega-weapon, just like it was in 5th edition. This would have a secondary effect of further degrading vehicle staying power...etc. It would be a chain reaction that would lead to...weird places and would harm any army that couldn't field solid AP1 firepower.

+1T, 5+ FnP, 2+ save should do it.

How would you change Icon of Excess on a Chaos Terminator squad?

It gives FnP too and would be made obsolete by this change.

Also yay for T6 nurgle termies!

Just have the icon of excess improve the FnP by +1 to a 4+.

Would T6, 37+ point terminators REALLY super over powered? I mean, T6 barely helps against plasma and doesn't do anything against S8+. 5 would run you 185 points, which is right on par with a riptide's T6 W5 2+/5++, and they're have WAY less firepower.

**ZebioLizard2**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Carnage43 wrote:
IHateNids wrote:
how about both a +1T & the lowers AP by one? or is that too much?

you are still gonna splat them with AT weapons, and you are not gonna be wounding them that much with small arms

I don't think the "lowers AP value by 1" is a good idea. It would set a dangerous precedent, and you would see it popping up everywhere....suddenly you'd be looking at plasma-immune Draigo/Lysander today, and plasma immune monstrous creatures a year later. Suddenly AP2 is worthless and melta is the new mega-weapon, just like it was in 5th edition. This would have a secondary effect of further degrading vehicle staying power...etc. It would be a chain reaction that would lead to...weird places and would harm any army that couldn't field solid AP1 firepower.

+1T, 5+ FnP, 2+ save should do it.

How would you change Icon of Excess on a Chaos Terminator squad?

It gives FnP too and would be made obsolete by this change.

Also yay for T6 nurgle termies!

Why would they care? Icon of Fear can be given to Possessed. Most of them are useless anyways.

**Tyberos the Red Wake**

MarsNZ wrote:
This thread makes me wonder how many people actually understand the term 'meta' vs how many just heard that term on the interwebs and use it wherever possible.

Protip: There's more to metagaming than just your local shop.

**madd_leeroy**

FNP would do it for me. I run a squad of 10 tac terms with a chaplin and 9 times out of 10 they make their points cost back or tie up enough shooting to justify their cost of 550 points.

**Mahtamori**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:
By this point you are just trolling. At least I hope you are.

Anyone who thinks mandrakes can be good needs help.

He's clearly not. I'm exalting every single post I find which he's written because he makes very valid points. Mandrakes and Banshees have nothing to do with it (two units that need adjustments), that's clearly rhetoric. His point is, if you missed it, that Terminators are not terrible. His point is that you can make Terminators work competitively if you don't try to use them with a single purpose. His point is not, as far as I can tell, that Terminators are perfectly balanced.

From my own perspective as someone who's currently got a large Eldar army and expanding my Marine army with specifically Tacticals and Terminators, Terminators do not fail me when I play them I fail them and they scare me when I play against them. I much rather see my opponents spend their points in Tacticals and their ilk.

You play eldar but fear terminators......do your guys use shuriken weapons? Did your wave serpents go on holiday? Are you waiting for the wraithknight's sun cannon to go on sale?
With an Eldar army it is more difficult not to chose something that will chew through terminators.

I don't use Wraithknights because I think their rules are over the top and their model aesthetics is just poorly done. I also sent all but at most 2 of my Wave Serpents on holiday because, again, they are over powered. I focus on using foot troops and it is so far making my games more fun and challenging (and my win loss ratio is still fairly good).

My own point is that maybe, just maybe, it's not Terminators that are poorly designed. Maybe it's a few key models? I mean, when it comes to Eldar what army doesn't have problems dealing with Wraithknights? What armies doesn't have problems with Wave Serpent spam? Are those models an argument for improving Terminators? NO! Of course they aren't!

**AlmightyWalrus**

Mahtamori wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:
By this point you are just trolling. At least I hope you are.

Anyone who thinks mandrakes can be good needs help.

He's clearly not. I'm exalting every single post I find which he's written because he makes very valid points. Mandrakes and Banshees have nothing to do with it (two units that need adjustments), that's clearly rhetoric. His point is, if you missed it, that Terminators are not terrible. His point is that you can make Terminators work competitively if you don't try to use them with a single purpose. His point is not, as far as I can tell, that Terminators are perfectly balanced.

From my own perspective as someone who's currently got a large Eldar army and expanding my Marine army with specifically Tacticals and Terminators, Terminators do not fail me when I play them I fail them and they scare me when I play against them. I much rather see my opponents spend their points in Tacticals and their ilk.

You play eldar but fear terminators......do your guys use shuriken weapons? Did your wave serpents go on holiday? Are you waiting for the wraithknight's sun cannon to go on sale?
With an Eldar army it is more difficult not to chose something that will chew through terminators.

I don't use Wraithknights because I think their rules are over the top and their model aesthetics is just poorly done. I also sent all but at most 2 of my Wave Serpents on holiday because, again, they are over powered. I focus on using foot troops and it is so far making my games more fun and challenging (and my win loss ratio is still fairly good).

My own point is that maybe, just maybe, it's not Terminators that are poorly designed. Maybe it's a few key models? I mean, when it comes to Eldar what army doesn't have problems dealing with Wraithknights? What armies doesn't have problems with Wave Serpent spam? Are those models an argument for improving Terminators? NO! Of course they aren't!

Wait, so your argument is "I don't use stuff that kills Terminators, so they're fine!"?

**Mahtamori**

No, my argument is "those things are broken and needs fixing, not your gods damned terminators"

**Big Blind Bill**

Mahtamori wrote:
No, my argument is "those things are broken and needs fixing, not your gods damned terminators"

How many things must become "broken" by new codices until it is the terminators themselves that needs changing?

As I said to the other guy, if you like to play non competitive lists then that is fine, and is non of my business. However, for the purpose of "How would you improve terminators" then you really need to consider the competitive choices out there and how they correspond to terminators.

**kronk**

Improve terminators? Give them 2 wounds like a handful of Terminator units in FW's HH Book 2.

**ZebioLizard2**

Mahtamori wrote:
No, my argument is "those things are broken and needs fixing, not your gods damned terminators"

Yes, those things are broken.

Now how exactly are we going to somehow delete them from the codex officially? Or is this a train of thought that doesn't really have an answer till 7th to 10th edition?

**Martel732**

madd_leeroy wrote:
FNP would do it for me. I run a squad of 10 tac terms with a chaplin and 9 times out of 10 they make their points cost back or tie up enough shooting to justify their cost of 550 points.

Then you play against paste-eaters. Sorry, true story.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:
No, my argument is "those things are broken and needs fixing, not your gods damned terminators"

Then you can't do math, because terminators aren't even good compared to units IN THEIR OWN CODEX. Why can't people just accept that they're bad? Because they are. Very bad at the moment. They would be bad without the existence of codex:Eldar, but with Eldar, they are literally unfieldable.