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 Omegus wrote:
Your threads are stupid.

Sisters are just fanatical bolter bitches in power armor, created to take advantage of a technicality that the Ecclesiarchy can't have MEN-at-arms.

So, they just have bolters and power armor? Wouldn't that make them better equipped than the vast majority of humans? Or is it that they're women that you find egregious? They don't have genetic enhancements and one on one a Space marine would -most likely- take a SOB. But it wouldn't be one on one, it'd be two or three on one. Then add in fiery fanaticism on top of that.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never got that.
Surely 1 sister isn't a strong garrison? I mean, I know they are excellent combatents, but I doubt 1 single sister can turn back anything greater than a particularly large group of cultists. Or are all sisters descended from the Doom Guy?

To expand on Mythantor's quote:

"Every concentration of the Adeptus Ministorum's power must be defended, and a force of Battle Sisters will be present to guard every shrine and fortress-cathedral in the Imperium, as well as the priceless sacred relics housed within them. The complement of these garrisons may vary from a few hundred warriors to guard a reliquary-stronghold to a single Battle Sister maintaining a constant vigil over the bones of a fallen saint."

And then, of course, we are also left to wonder what exactly qualifies as a "concentration" of the Ministorum's power.

The first and foremost line of defense for the many shrines and temples throughout the Imperium was always the Preachers and the Frateris Militia zealot rabble - it'd be kinda sad if this aspect was dropped.
But that's what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned the wiggle room for different theories. Personally, I believe a smaller number both better reflects the attrition rate and extreme recruitment requirements (you can make a Space Marine, but you have to look for a Sister), as well as the comparatively minor role they play in GW's fluff. If they'd really be on every single world, not only would this severely diminish the rarity of power armour and boltguns, but it'd also make them the most dangerous force on a whole lot of planets, considering that some Imperial worlds have a defence force that still fights with bows and spears.

Omegus wrote:Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans?

Ah, that explains the disconnect. I believe we were argueing on the basis of the 7 foot tall GW Marines, not the +1 Black Library version.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Your threads are stupid.

Sisters are just fanatical bolter bitches in power armor, created to take advantage of a technicality that the Ecclesiarchy can't have MEN-at-arms.

So, they just have bolters and power armor? Wouldn't that make them better equipped than the vast majority of humans? Or is it that they're women that you find egregious? They don't have genetic enhancements and one on one a Space marine would -most likely- take a SOB. But it wouldn't be one on one, it'd be two or three on one. Then add in fiery fanaticism on top of that.

Considering how much of 40k conflict is resolved in melee, then yes, being a woman is a disadvantage, but that was not my point. They have worse equipment (no black carapace to fully utilize power armor, no exotic archeotech in armory), are actually fewer in number, and on top of their own brand of fiery fanaticism, Space Marines have jacked up adrenals pumping their jacked up bodies full of kill juice.

Considering the Eviscerator is one of the deadliest melee weapons the Imperium fields, I think you're underestimating the prowess of the Sisterhood in close combat.

One doesn't need to "fully" utilise power armour, considering that all the Black Carapace does is foregoing pre-calibration and enhancing the user's ability to interface with "monitoring, medicinal and maintenance units". The Seraphim seem perfectly able to pull off their melee kung-fu moves without direct interface, possibly because the difference between reading a muscle impulse within the muscle, and reading it at the limb, is not actually that massive.
Marine PA provides better strength augmentation, but on the other hand one also shouldn't dismiss the Sisters' much smaller profile - both in terms of evading enemy attacks as well as using the environment to advantage (taking cover, quickly moving through terrain and buildings, etc).

On top of Codex quotes such as the Sisters being "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", there is the Inferno Pistol as one example of archaeotech, not to mention relics such as the Armour of Saint Katherine.

Certainly, one shouldn't dismiss some Marine Chapters' own fanatism, but as far as effects of faith go, the most seems to be the Black Templars being able to emulate the Sisters' resilience against psychic attacks - arguably, though, that still doesn't provide them with Acts of Faith of similar magnitude. The monastic lifestyle and conviction does a lot for their focus, but whether it is the Sisterhood's secret training methods or the fact that the Sisters never actually ever had a normal life and a family, whereas Marines are recruited at age 10-12, in the end there remains a difference between the two armies which neither of them is able to overcome.

Which brings us back to the GW website quote, for it is this difference, these perks unique to both the Marines and the Sisters, which can level the playing field.

@LightKing: you have a thing for "who is the most powerful" threads, don´t you? Things are not that simple. You are bound to get nothing but fanboys yelling that their favorite faction is the best.

Every Codex depicts its faction as totally awesome. Since there are many players who have read the Space Marine Codex (any of them), Space Marine novels and nothing else, the "Space Marines are awesome and the rest suck" belief is common. But if you read the rest of the background, everyone kick ass.

The Sisters have been described as "equal to Space Marines" since the beginning, though I always thought this is sort of an exaggeration. Lynata is better than me providing references and quotes.

- Sisters are significantly weaker and not able to stand the amount of damage a Marine can take. In close combat they are hard to kill but, after some time of hitting each other, they will die against your average Astartes. Unless a miracle happens, of course. If the Sister is armed with a Power Weapon, my money would be on her.
- Sisters are incorruptible, their faith unbreakable. Not a single Sister has fallen to Chaos (well some sources claim that there is one), while half the Space Marines have switched sides. In a dire situation, some marines just stop fighting for the Emperor. Sisters are trustworthy, and Astartes stand somehow besides the Imperium. Some of them (the Wolves or the Dark Angels to begin with) have an agenda of their own and are borderline traitors to the Imperium according to the people that is ruling the Imperium.
- Both have the same training. Same indoctrination, same techniques, same everything. Sisters have been trained since birth. Some Chapters have good, logical, effective training systems (Ultramarines) while other Chapters are not that good at that.
- Sisters have similar, perhaps even better gear. Sure, some powerful, ancient Chapters have extremely rare archeotech, marvels that they don´t understand. Or are able to create powerful weaponary. But the average Chapter does not. And the Sisters have the backing of the Ecclesiarchy, For instance, they bury their kin with the power armour they fought with. And they have archeotech of their own.
- Sisters are highly valuable for lots of powers inside the Imperium. The Adeptus Astra Telepathica, the Arbites, the Inquisition or the Ecclesiarchy use them and share their resources with them. Yet they are far less numerous than Astartes. It is not clear what makes a Sister a Sister, because an important part of them, the Acts of Faith, has an unknown origin, but it seems that it is far more difficult to create a Sister than a Marine. This is telling.

Even more important is the "propaganda" effect concerning the Marines. At the end of the day, a human soldier with the best possible training shooting a melta gun at a Space Marine will blow him in pieces. No matter if he is a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Sister, the Marine does not stand a chance. They are not god-like supersoldiers. They die like everyone else. And if tanks are involved, and the Marines are in the open, it is a massacre.

Some Black Library authors depict a little group of marines killing full armies with their axes, while throwing grenades to tanks as they pass. They also can defeat Hive Fleets, kill Greater Daemons or Avatars, exterminate thousands of chaos space marines or conquer/save entire worlds with populations numbering in the billions. Some people call these books "bolter porn". They are fun to read, in a way. Other writers try to add some realism. No way an army of one thousand (let alone a single squad) can be relevant in a planetary war if they behave like heros and charge the enemy head-on.

I think the tabletop game can serve to draw comparisons. Look at the point costs: Sisters are 12 points, Chaos Space Marines 13 points and Space Marines 14. Genestealers are 14 points too, by the way, yet I know people that believe that Genestealers do not stand a chance against Marines, and are really confused when they play Space Hulk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Considering the Eviscerator is one of the deadliest melee weapons the Imperium fields, I think you're underestimating the prowess of the Sisterhood in close combat.

They can run wielding a Heavy Bolter. And at least in 5th edition some of them could shoot it with BS 4 while running.

da001 wrote:I think the tabletop game can serve to draw comparisons. Look at the point costs: Sisters are 12 points, Chaos Space Marines 13 points and Space Marines 14. Genestealers are 14 points too, by the way, yet I know people that believe that Genestealers do not stand a chance against Marines, and are really confused when they play Space Hulk.

Indeed - I like to look towards the tabletop game as well, less so due to points but rather the capabilities of weaponry and armour, and the abilities of the various forces. I like the clear-cut ruleset of the tabletop because it is a very rare example of solid numbers, without an author skewing perception towards a specific faction. No, in the tabletop, everyone plays on equal footing ... which is actually a slight disadvantage to the Marines, because their modus operandi is focused on deploying in a manner that does not allow the enemy to have a fair fight. Fortunately it's not too difficult to make up narrative "excuses" for the weird strength/size of the forces on the tabletop, though.

One should never forget that the TT is still an abstraction, of course, but in the end the fluff has been written for it, not the other way around. "The fluff" with its myriad of overlapping, yet contradictory interpretations, is much more abstracted.

Excellent post, btw. Feel exalted.

Oh, and to clarify, when I am supportive of the "they're equals" quote I threw around earlier, I do not mean that they consistently perform identical, but that the Marines have a superior constant performance, whereas the Sisters can use their Faith to temporarily surpass them ... which may end up equalising the final result, so to say. As if the Marines have a line that goes like ------, whereas the Sisters are __/\__.
At least this is what I believe the writer(s) at GW were referring to as well when they came up with that, given that they specifically listed faith as what allows the Sororitas to "catch up" with their Astartes brethren.

 Mythantor wrote:
From the Adeptis Sororitas Codex

The greater Order Militant maintain subsidary convents across the Imperium, the largest of which are referred to as Preceptories- a military force that can overcome all but the most terrible foes. This term is also used to describe an organisitional unit of up to one thousand battle sisters

Each order maintains forces of up to 1000 sisters across the breadth of the Imperium, that seems to me to indicate that there alot more than 3000-6000 sisters in each of the major orders.

Ah, but look at the end of that paragraph:

it is not unknown for a Preceptory to adopt subtle variations of their Order’s livery or traditions.

And then over to the description of Minor Orders:

Although the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, there are numerous other Orders Militant – the Orders Minoris – that have established their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles inspired by one of the Sisterhood’s patron saints.

Looks to me like many of these Preceptories referenced are really Minor Orders, or could become one.

But I will note that feel that the last stated numbers for Major Orders do feel a bit low, considering the vast, vast size of the Imperium. However, those are the numbers that were last given (in the 6E rulebook, I think), and nothing else has been said. The part you pulled out could well be an idication of a retcon, though, but we won't know fro sure until a later publication mentions it outright. So I prefer to play it safe, for the time being, and stick to the last outright statement on the matter.

 da001 wrote:
Since there are many players who have read the Space Marine Codex (any of them), Space Marine novels and nothing else, the "Space Marines are awesome and the rest suck" belief is common.

In relation to this, I think that a problem for the Sisters is that some BL authors/third party contributors depict them as fairly weak, and positive portrayals of them are a little more obscure.

Though, in fairness, every faction probably gets depicted as weak at some point, just depends on who's authoring the book. And, unfortunately, not a whole lot of authors are doing books for the SoB. Though there's certianly some great portrayals to be found too.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Surely 1 sister isn't a strong garrison? I mean, I know they are excellent combatents, but I doubt 1 single sister can turn back anything greater than a particularly large group of cultists. Or are all sisters descended from the Doom Guy?

They're not necessarily alone, though. There could well be armed clergymen and other zealots with them or nearby.

Troike wrote:Looks to me like many of these Preceptories referenced are really Minor Orders, or could become one.

Given the terminology of past publications, I'd subscribe to the same reasoning:

"As numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of thousand warriors to many thousands, the subsidiary convents began to take on an importance all their own. These small scattered bases often proved ideal for reacting to requests for assistance from the Ordo Hereticus, and so over time became independent of the Orders that had founded them, establishing their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles. Though the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris, became especially useful in the frequent purity sweeps and pogroms instituted by the Witch Hunters."
- 3E C:WH, p6 The Rise of the Lesser Orders Militant

And given that the 6E Codex page the quoted segment is from talks about the Orders Militant as a whole, yet does not otherwise mention the Minor Orders, ...

Then again, I am biased towards that argument anyways.

I think the biggest problem of this thread is the confusion between fluff and crunch. Yes, in the game the SoB have bolters and power armor with the same stats as a space marine, but in fluff, their equipment is worlds apart. Power armor refers to a mechanism, not one distinct design. It is, after all, Powered Armor, not some uniformly constructed suit with the name power armor. This is clearly apparent just by looking at the models. Space marine's Power Armor is much much thicker than the armor worn by the sisters of battle. The shoulder pads alone seem twice as thick as the sister's armor, nevermind the probable thickness of the chest piece. Beyond this, fluff states that the difference between astartes quality wargear and human wargear is not merely in quality or age, but in size and force. If i recall, the Deathwatch rulebook states that most of the bolt weapons used by normal humans are simply the best attempts to replicate astartes wargear on a smaller, more manageable scale. Something similar is stated in the Grey Knights omnibus, when one of the marines is said to be firing a storm bolter at a dead sprint when the recoil would shatter a normal man's arm. In that same book, the big finale is actually the only full account of space marines in direct combat with sisters that i know of, and i feel is pretty indicative of the likely results. ~20 grey knights rush an entrenched line of sisters, and begin to utterly destroy them, but taking wounds in the process. The sisters were displayed as skilled, but unable to match the speed, strength, and weaponry of the marines. However, their numbers is where they inflicted wounds, as the grey knights were engaging multiple sisters each, and even then, i don't recall many dying, even though there were wounds like broken arms, stabbings, etc being inflicted.

So are sisters the equals to space marines? Not even close, but will sisters be found in greater numbers than space marines at all but the most dire of battlefields? Probably, and that's what gives them a fighting chance.

I'd like to have some fun asking if this is all that true? Keep in mind that the SM of the Fantasy Flight games might not = fluff just as much as the TT might not fully represent the marine's in their capability. In Deathwatch, a small squad of marines can annihilate millions of foes head on but in the fluff they are built to be a surgical strike force. So I wouldn't be entirely sure of that especially as even Space Marine armour has its high quality and low quality armour.

Also first of all why were the GK even rushing a line of sisters? They aren't corrupted or anything. Also keep in mind that writers tend to be relatively bad at treating SoB and GK are arguably the best SM force above the rest (with only deathwatch and the custodes being comparable)

It's Black Library - I'd be highly surprised if the protagonists did not enjoy a particularly heroic portrayal! Be it that the novel paints them as bigger in size, killing more opponents, or wielding weapons not suitable for anyone but them. That's why, as I mentioned earlier, I prefer the impartial numbers of the tabletop.

Ultimately, however, each of these different and conflicting versions of the fluff is just as valid as the next. This setting does not have a perfectly uniform "canon", so it comes down to just how awesome the individual gamer or reader wants their Space Marines or Sisters to be. This question tends to be influenced by whether you believe that "40k = Space Marines", or that the Marines are just one of many puzzle pieces.

(and FFG's Deathwatch is Movie Marines the RPG - seriously, those guys have squad modes that let them shrug off lascannon wounds with no damage at all )

A daemon corrupted an inquisitor, who fled to this planet and convinced the sisters there and a regiment of guardsmen that he was loyal and the emperor needed their help. The grey knights were sent to hunt down the inquisitor and banish the daemon, but the inquisitor convinced the people of the planet that they were chaos marines, and since grey knights are so secretive, no one recognized their chapter symbol. The grey knights crashed on the planet after their ship was shot down, and to get to where the daemon plan was centered, they had to get through a line of sisters that were between them and the objective, and since the sisters of battle thought they were traitor marines and communication was limited, the sisters opened fire and the grey knights were forced to fight them.

And while the grey knights are presented as the elites of the marines (along with the deathwatch), they are still just marines, and die just as easily as normal marines (beyond hunting daemons).

 Lynata wrote:

Omegus wrote:Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans?

Ah, that explains the disconnect. I believe we were argueing on the basis of the 7 foot tall GW Marines, not the +1 Black Library version.

Yeah yeah, keep living the lie. The distinction is nowhere near as big as you like to pretend, and when it comes to feats, Codex Marines are just as, or more, ridiculous as BL ones. Height is irrelevant, 7 or 8, they are physically far far far far far superior to bolter nuns, they are still snapping normal humans like twigs.

I think the real question is which one doesn't have a bolter gun (don't matter who you are. Have fun when I shove a power sword through your head or meet you to the sweet burst of melta)

 Lynata wrote:
(...)
Oh, and to clarify, when I am supportive of the "they're equals" quote I threw around earlier, I do not mean that they consistently perform identical, but that the Marines have a superior constant performance, whereas the Sisters can use their Faith to temporarily surpass them ... which may end up equalising the final result, so to say. As if the Marines have a line that goes like ------, whereas the Sisters are __/\__.
At least this is what I believe the writer(s) at GW were referring to as well when they came up with that, given that they specifically listed faith as what allows the Sororitas to "catch up" with their Astartes brethren.

That´s my belief too.

Rav1rn wrote:
(...) Something similar is stated in the Grey Knights omnibus, when one of the marines is said to be firing a storm bolter at a dead sprint when the recoil would shatter a normal man's arm. In that same book, the big finale is actually the only full account of space marines in direct combat with sisters that i know of, and i feel is pretty indicative of the likely results. ~20 grey knights rush an entrenched line of sisters, and begin to utterly destroy them, but taking wounds in the process. The sisters were displayed as skilled, but unable to match the speed, strength, and weaponry of the marines. However, their numbers is where they inflicted wounds, as the grey knights were engaging multiple sisters each, and even then, i don't recall many dying, even though there were wounds like broken arms, stabbings, etc being inflicted. (...)

No.

That´s actually one of my all time favorite books. You are misremembering.

Grey Knights crashes a spaceship on the enemy positions. Everything is destroyed.
Page 226 omnibus edition: "(...) the disruption was immense - communications cut, bunkers undermined by the shockwave, eardrums burst, unstable munitions and fuel dumps detonated. Confusion paralysed the defences, and only the most well-equipped and disciplined troops could hope to fight (...). Those troops were the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas".

Visibility is really low, Retributors and two Exorcists tanks are useless. Page 227: "Space Marines had full auto-senses that would give them a crucial advantage here, when the Sisters couldn´t make out targets at long bolter range". It is the worst case scenario for the Sisters: close combat against marines armed with power weapons.

The two forces clash, and we have 3 pages of brutal hand-to-hand fight, from the point of view of Justicar Alaric, the hero. Keep in mind that the GK have power weapons, they cut through Power Armour with ease.

Paragraph 1: Justicar Alaric uses his Nemesis halberd to smash one Sister back and slice off the arm of another. Another knight, Dvorn, swat a Sister backwards with a hammer.
Paragraph 2: Incinerators and flamers everywhere.
Paragraph 3: Brother Clostus and a Sister Superior duel, halberd to power sword. "She sliced down and cut deep into Cloestus´ chest, punching her free hand hard into his face and barging him back into the swirling ash". Both sides having power weapons makes the duels far more interesting. For extra fun, she yells the Catechism of Righteous Loathing while fighting.
Paragraph 4: Brother Lachis is left behind, his leg shattered by bolter fire.
Paragraph 5: squad Santoro reaches the second line, right behind squad Tancred: bolter fire and flamers welcome them.
Paragraph 6: Brother Clostus´ rune is gone, presumed dead.
Paragraph 7: Alaric sees an unidentified member of squad Santoro, "on his knees, his armour pocked and smoking by a dozen bolter rounds". His hand is reduced to "useless bloody rags", though he is still firing his stormbolter.
Paragraph 8: Alaric meets a Sister: "a Sister charged from behind the cover of the razorwire and ducked Alaric´s first blow, grabbing one shoulder pad and smashing him in the face with the butt of the bolter".
Paragraph 9: Alaric, pissed off, kills the Sister in a particularly brutal way.

And so on. Forward to page 230: the GK are still pushing, and the Sister´s first and second lines seem broken. The battle is quite confusing and dirty. Nothing remotely close to the clean Bolter Porn you usually read in the novels. Time for the Seraphims to strike. The Grey Knight advance is halted, and the fight gets bloodier. One of the Seraphim gets in combat with Alaric:
"The Seraphim Superior dived, power-sword first, streaking through the darkness (...) Alaric stumbled and fell onto his back, the thrust of the Seraphim driving him into the mud. He pinned the Sister´s blade under his halberd arm but she got a knee down on his storm bolter hand. Her free hand pistoned up and slammed down an elbow into Alaric´s jaw (...)"... I am not getting a "unable to match the speed, strength, and weaponry of the marines" here at all.

At this point Alaric tries to communicate with the enemy, and eventually they stop killing each other.

Conclusions:
1) Sisters against Grey Knights is a rather brutal battle with no easy victory for anyone.
2) Sisters against Space Marine in 1 to 1 usually ends in an incapacitated Sister, but not always. A Sister can duck the attack of a Space Marine and kill him in close combat, particularly if she wields a power weapon. There are some examples in the fluff of Sisters fighting a Space Marine in a one-to-one duel and winning.
3) Would the GK have been able to go through the Sisters? It is unclear.

Against common Space Marines? The same, probably better. A Sister is the closer you can get to a Space Marine while being still human.

One more thing: the GK acknowledge the danger the Sisters present, not because of the gear or the training, but because their lack of fear. While the guardsmen run, they stand their ground. IF the common soldiers were able to keep the line instead of running, they would have had a chance against the GK. That´s a major constant in many books: the Astartes win battles because they strike fear in the enemy. They are elite troops, specialized in surgical strikes. They cannot attack a tank or a heavily entrenched position and live.

Rav1rn wrote:
Yes, in the game the SoB have bolters and power armor with the same stats as a space marine, but in fluff, their equipment is worlds apart.

Not really, it depends on what fluff you're reading. In the WH codex, for example, it's mentioned that it's as good as a Marine Bolter, IIRC. It is indeed mentioned that it is superior to "nearly all other boltgun-type weapons", according to the Lexicanum (which also cites the WH codex). According to the Lexicanum, the WH codex also seems to say that it provides the same level of protection as Marine Armour, but lacks the strength enhacement enjoyed by the Marines.

Rav1rn wrote:
the Deathwatch rulebook states that most of the bolt weapons used by normal humans are simply the best attempts to replicate astartes wargear on a smaller, more manageable scale. Something similar is stated in the Grey Knights omnibus, when one of the marines is said to be firing a storm bolter at a dead sprint when the recoil would shatter a normal man's arm.

Keep in mind that this is just the version of other contributing authors, studio material may disagree.

Rav1rn wrote:
but will sisters be found in greater numbers than space marines at all but the most dire of battlefields? Probably, and that's what gives them a fighting chance.

Numbers do seem to be a Sororitas advantage over the Marines, at times, given that on the TT Battle Sister squads can include up to 20 members. But no, numbers aren't what give the Sisters their edge. As it stands, there's far more Marines than Sisters. What gives the Sisters their edge in 40K is their sheer faith. We see this with the Acts of Faith, which let them, fight at capabilities far beyond that of an normal human. We also see it with their Shield of Faith, with every Sister getting an invulnerable save, fluffed as them pushing past even the most dire of wounds.

@da001
Oooh, nice. That book actually sounds quite good. Looks like a pretty nice portrayal of the Sisters (its reference to Chaos Sisters aside). I enjoyed the sequel to it, where the GKs fight the Dark Mechanicus, so I may just have to pick that one up, at some point.

@Troike: I really liked it. The author has some bad books, but the way he describes the chaos human followers (the Lost and the Damned) is brilliant. Every single cult he writes about is completely unique, and all of them sounds cool.

In this book, the chaos worshippers are excellent, the Daemons are amazing, the Sisters rocks, and the Guard and the Inquisition are nicely done too. The plot is interesting with people switching sides and a Tzeentch Daemon twisting everything. You don´t know what is going to happen in the next chapter. And the Grey Knights always fight in the direst conditions, yet manage to keep going on, which makes them absolutely heroic. Completely different from the average "marine book". Dark Adeptus is good but not as good, and I have mixed feelings on Hammer of Daemons, the third part of the trilogy.

For another take on Sisters of Battle from the same author, I 100% recommend you the short tale "Daemonblood", starring a Sister and an Ultramarine. It has been published in at least two anthologies: "Dark Imperium" and "Let the Galaxy Burn"

 da001 wrote:
And the Grey Knights always fight in the direst conditions, yet manage to keep going on, which makes them absolutely heroic.

Yeah, this is something that I really liked with his GK vs. Dark Mechanicus book. It wasn't a just roflstomp for the Grey Knights at all, they had some real struggles in their mission and could have been beaten, which made their victory feel all the more hard-earned and meaningful. Ben Counter writes his characters well, from what I've seen.

 da001 wrote:
For another take on Sisters of Battle from the same author, I 100% recommend you the short tale "Daemonblood", starring a Sister and an Ultramarine. It has been published in at least two anthologies: "Dark Imperium" and "Let the Galaxy Burn"

Oh, alrealy read it. Read though 'Let the Galaxy Burn" as a lad. Yeah, he writes them quite well in that too. He also nicely shows the power of their faith in resisting corruption, which is cool to see.

Omegus wrote:Yeah yeah, keep living the lie.

Don't blame me, I'm just sticking to what the writers at the GW core studio have put forth.

Troike wrote:Keep in mind that this is just the version of other contributing authors, studio material may disagree.

It not only may, it does. In GW's Inquisitor game, everyone gets the same bolters.
And why should they be different? The initial charge is only to push the round out of the barrel, anyways - the Wargear Codex specifically points out that bolt weapon projectiles leave the gun "at low velocity" before the rocket motor kicks in and catapults the round to higher speed.
... keep in mind this is before we'd even get to consider the possible existence of recoil compensating technology that already exists in the real world, allowing ordinary humans to fire full-auto weapons of a similar caliber with a single hand. Or the effects of power armour. We're talking about infantry capable of lugging heavy bolters around solo ... and the weight of the gun alone is bound to negate much of the kinetic energy of the discharge.

da001: Thanks for the novel excerpt - so much for the hearsay.
Although the Sisters not having auto-senses is another small deviation from Codex fluff, of course. But such contradictions are to be expected in 40k; what is more remarkable is that this author apparently portrayed them in a more-capable-than-usual-for-BL way, even though they were just sidekicks (from how I understand the plot).

 Lynata wrote:
even though they were just sidekicks (from how I understand the plot).

More or less, though not in a bad way, from what it sounds like. A more flattering way to put it might be secondary characters, or something like that.

From what I've heard, their role in that story involves the somewhat common plot point of the Sisters being used by a corrupt clergyman to further his nefarious agenda. But this is one of the examples where the Sisters find out that they've been tricked, and go after said clergyman.

Sisters of Battle put down the Rainbow Warriors and were said to have done so to other chapters. In saying that it is unknown exactly how these conflicts took place. Did the Sisters outnumber the Astartes with other Imperial Forces backing them up?

Can Sisters stand toe to toe with enemies that Space Marines are called in to face more commonly.. Traitor Marines... Tyranids? Probably not.

In saying that, Space Marines probably aren't suited to the duties that Sisters are called in to fulfil.

 Medium of Death wrote:
In saying that it is unknown exactly how these conflicts took place. Did the Sisters outnumber the Astartes with other Imperial Forces backing them up?

Outnumbering them? Possibly, that depends on both the size of the Order and the Astartes. Honestly, I can't give you an exact answer here, given that the fluff doesn't seem to have ever gone into much detail on the Sisters purging Marine Chapters. We know they've done it, and that its a duty of theirs, but that's about it.

As to whether they had help, it's never been mentioned. I don't think that they would need it, really. The Sisters are plenty well equipped and trained, they can hold their own.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Can Sisters stand toe to toe with enemies that Space Marines are called in to face more commonly.. Traitor Marines... Tyranids? Probably not.

Sure they can. Sisters can deal with regular Marines, so Chaos Marines should be doable as well. And the Sisters are also adept at fighting Chaos, so they've got that in their favour also.

As for Tyranids, why not? A favoured 'Nid tactic is swarms of infantry, which the Sisters are very good at delaing with, what with their adeptness at ranged combat and love of flamers. One piece of fluff in the AS codex, the Martyrdom of Praxedes, talks about Retributors and Exorcists obliterating a first wave of a Tyranid assault. Went the second 'Nid wave breaks through, their leader, Canoness Praxedes, martyrs herself slaying the Hive Tyrant leading the assault, which throws the attakcing 'Nids into confusion and invigorates the Sisters into defeating the rest of the attacking Tyranids, so they can clearly do well agianst 'Nids.

 Medium of Death wrote:
In saying that, Space Marines probably aren't suited to the duties that Sisters are called in to fulfil.

Oh, such as? I'm interested in what you had in mind, there.

Delicate ecclesiarchal matters. Protecting Shrine worlds and such. There's a piece of fluff about a SM Chapter desserting a shrine world due to it's tactical worthlessness.

Perhaps dealing with early daemonic incursions, or large mutant uprisings. Obviously the Grey Knights fight Daemons but they can't be everywhere at once, I think faith would hold an advantage over standard astartes in that regard.

Fleet action has to be considered too, the SM would have the upper hand in orbit imho.

SOB can't go against Tyranids, chaos or anyone else?? Where do people get these ideas. If they can wipe out whole Marine chapters, they can probably fight a chaos warband or three. If called on to go after a corrupt Marine chapter, they're probably going to bring their entire order. Say a major one. So, maybe 3,000 sisters against 1,000 marines. But they'll also bring everyone else they can. Some people think that the strength of an individual warrior is what wins wars. Not at all. Numbers add up. Logistics. Position. Strategy. Tactics, etc. The strength of an individual warrior is only a small and sometimes minor part. If you're imagining a Space marine throwing down against a Sister of battle and Spartan kicking her and then waving a banner in victory, you're doing it wrong. In most battles, 30% casualties is considered atrocious and utterly horrible. There are opening skirmishes to test strength and weakness of the enemy, then the full on assault to break the enemies' nerve and make them scatter and run. If an enemy doesn't do that, then you'll have to fight them to the last man which is time consuming and VERY costly. An example of this would the Spartans at Thermopylae. (Not the movie version, the actual version.) They found a good position and held up. Another example is the First Battle of Bull Run when many confederate units were starting to break and it looked like a Union victory, Jackson held his grown with his Virginians and wouldn't budge. That in itself was remarkable and made the other Confederate unites turn around and go back into the fight to pull out a victory. Okay, there are too many examples, so I'll just say that not running away is in itself a HUGE advantage in combat. (Different from a strategic retreat. Those are good. Just ask the Prussians against Napoleon.)

This sums up the SOB battle doctrine fairly nicely.

So...

Then Black Templars must be really OP?

Superfaith + Superhuman = Super-super-warrior?

Their faith even has an impact gamewise (Crusader & AW special rules- Sisters get SoF and AoF instead of Crusader, perhaps more appropriate for them)

So a BT would easily kick the ass of any other Space Marine because they are Space Marines + the advantages of SoB?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:


On top of Codex quotes such as the Sisters being "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", there is the Inferno Pistol as one example of archaeotech, not to mention relics such as the Armour of Saint Katherine.

Gravguns.

Conversion Beamers.

Centurion Warsuits.

Terminator Armour. (Why the feth doesn't the Sisters have their own mini-Terminators yet? That would be awesome. On the other hand, boobplate-Terminators, which GW inevitably would design them as, would look stupid.)

Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

Troike wrote:Outnumbering them? Possibly, that depends on both the size of the Order and the Astartes. Honestly, I can't give you an exact answer here, given that the fluff doesn't seem to have ever gone into much detail on the Sisters purging Marine Chapters. We know they've done it, and that its a duty of theirs, but that's about it.

Judging from Andy Hoare's strike force article, it seems to be more of a surgical strike rather than a battle of attrition. In fact, the army list accompanying the article did not even allow regular Battle Sisters - Celestians became the only Troop choice, Seraphim the only Fast Attack slot, and the Sisters' modified Deathwind Drop Pods the only Heavy Support!

Now, as you say, this might not apply in all cases and be dependent on the exact circumstances and the forces involved, but in my opinion it's a good indication, especially as standard operating procedure for such missions is for the Sisters to focus their assault on the Chapter's leadership "to disable the entire organisation from the top down".

BrotherHaraldus wrote:So a BT would easily kick the ass of any other Space Marine because they are Space Marines + the advantages of SoB?

They don't have the Sisters Acts of Faith, do they?

Faith and the training to channel it are not an on/off switch or a perk that you either have or you don't. There are countless variations of differing strength. The Black Templars are closer to the Sisters than the average Space Marine (they have a similar resilience to psychic attacks), but that's where it ends.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Gravguns. Conversion Beamers. Centurion Warsuits. Terminator Armour. Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

Technically, you don't know what sort of relics the Ecclesiarchy has buried somewhere. It could be anything. Literally.

 Lynata wrote:
Judging from Andy Hoare's strike force article,

Oooh, was this an article specifically about them purging Marine Chapters? Where did that appear, in a WD? Was there fluff to go with it?

 Lynata wrote:
it seems to be more of a surgical strike rather than a battle of attrition. In fact, the army list accompanying the article did not even allow regular Battle Sisters - Celestians became the only Troop choice, Seraphim the only Fast Attack slot, and the Sisters' modified Deathwind Drop Pods the only Heavy Support!

Now, as you say, this might not apply in all cases and be dependent on the exact circumstances and the forces involved, but in my opinion it's a good indication, especially as standard operating procedure for such missions is for the Sisters to focus their assault on the Chapter's leadership "to disable the entire organisation from the top down".

That sounds about right, actually. Hit them hard where it hurts and then mop up the stragglers. Certainly sounds like a logical way to go about taking down a Marine Chapter, circumstances allowing.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

 Lynata wrote:

Faith and the training to channel it are not an on/off switch or a perk that you either have or you don't. There are countless variations of differing strength. The Black Templars are closer to the Sisters than the average Space Marine (they have a similar resilience to psychic attacks), but that's where it ends.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Their faith even has an impact gamewise (Crusader & AW special rules

They get Crusader instead, which Sisters don't. Their faith is just as potent, just not identical, it seems?

And for wargear, well, you don't know what the Space Marines have in store, either!

Troike wrote:Oooh, was this an article specifically about them purging Marine Chapters? Where did that appear, in a WD? Was there fluff to go with it?

It was in Citadel Journal #49 - I'm surprised you've never seen it, considering I'm sure you'd be super-interested in this:
"The main army list represents the forces the Ministorum can amass to suppress a major rebellion in a populated area or embark upon a massive War of Faith. This variant details a small, highly elite force assembled to neutralise a specific foe identified by the Ordo Hereticus."

The article was not entirely about purging renegade Marine Chapters, but it was the dominant theme throughout a large part of the accompanying fluff:
"Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant. Led by a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus, the force can call upon the aid of the Imperial Navy, from whose troop transports they can deploy using the small numbers of drop pods each of the Orders Militant maintains exclusively for these operations."

Also important for a SoB fluff nut - a small but interesting detail about the inner workings of the Adepta Sororitas:
"On the eve of an assault, the members of the Strike Force receive the blessings of the Inner Circle of the Daughters of the Emperor, a secretive group drawn from the senior members of each Order Militant."

I particularly like the Dominica-pattern Drop Pods ("variants of the Deathwind pods used by the Adeptus Astartes, equipped with the favoured weapons of the Sisters of Battle, including heavy bolters and multi-meltas") as they sound like a nasty surprise to send down with the infantry-carrying pods, acting both as a decoy for any anti-air defences that may be triggered in time, as well as fire support covering the shock troops' arrival. The only bit in the fluff I find "meh" is the hint at the Sisters being dependent on the Navy for airdropping Seraphim.

CJ #49 also has a sort of "beta version" of the Repentia, by the way - back then they were intended as individual add-ons for normal SoB squads, rather than a troop of their own. If you had a unit of SoB caught up in melee, you could have them fall back whilst the Repentia would remain there, continuing to fight the enemy and allowing their Sisters to regroup. If she actually survives, you get +1 Faith Point, and any squad she joins (even non-SoB) instantly becomes Faithful and capable of triggering AoF! That's just badass. I think I actually like this early version more than what we eventually ended up with.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:They get Crusader instead, which Sisters don't. Their faith is just as potent, just not identical, it seems?

Given the game effect of Crusader, I'm not sure I would call it "just as potent" - an extra die for running and a bonus to Sweeping Advances just doesn't sound quite as remarkable as, say, refusing to collapse even though being mortally wounded. Do note that this may not be just a question of conviction (which both BT and SoB have) and training (which is unique to the Sisters), though. The Templars' bodies are already souped up with genetic enhancements and are running on overdrive 24/7, so much so that they need regular drug administration to not suffer system shock - whereas the Sisters are tapping into reserves that the human body normally does not release under ordinary conditions. In other words, I think the Templars already being so close to the top and having their bodies tampered with messes with the "efficiency" of their own zeal. It still works, it's just not as flashy.

In a P&P fan-supplement I'm currently working on, Acts of Faith are actually something that is theoretically available for everyone (depending on their spiritual purity) - but the effects differ heavily, and some AoF will be exclusive to groups which have weaved this into their training program, like the Sisters. If I ever get around to implement BT, they will get their very own AoF, too.

On a sidenote, Sisters can actually get Crusader as part of a "set" together with Fleet and Move Through Cover when they trigger the Endless Crusade AoF.