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 Lynata wrote:

LightKing wrote:i guess in fluff, SOB have always been = to Space Marines
is this true?

Now, that depends entirely on who writes the fluff - both about the Sisters as well as the Marines. A question like this taps into the perception of not only one but two forces.

Games Workshop once had this on their website:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
- src

To propose an argument based around this notion, consider that the vast majority of a Space Marine's implants, just like most of the additional gadgets of his power armour, are highly circumstantial - abilities like spitting acid, being able to gain another's memory by eating their brains, or putting yourself in artificial coma may give you an edge in very specific situations, but won't mean squat in a straight shoot-out. What might aid the Marine here are his reinforced bones, the fast-clotting blood, the secondary heart and his genetically enhanced physical strength.

However, one of 40k's most important themes is the terrible destructive power of its futuristic weaponry, and even ceramic-reinforced bones may not stop an armour-piercing miniature missile with an explosive warhead, whereas the heart and the blood are more about making sure the Marine does not die from critical injury rather than being able to prevent them.
The Sororitas, on the other hand, even though having trained for a longer time than the Marine (assuming they are both of the same age), is still a pure human being behind an equally protective suit of armour, which means that anything that punches through that inch of ceramite will ultimately hurt her a lot more than it would hurt the Marine. Yet, what the aforementioned quote is referring to is a Sister's ability to channel her faith in a way that lets her potentially ignore these injuries and just keep moving and fighting even though she is mortally wounded.
Ultimately, this creates the possibility of a Marine and a Sister both "surviving" the same kind of physical punishment, with the Sister dying after the battle has ended whereas the Marine can be medevac'ed and returned to active duty after some time in his Chapter's apothecarion. In tabletop terms, this is represented with the Marine's more reliable T4 as opposed to a T3 Sister's potentially more powerful but less reliable Shield of Faith.

tl;dr: Generally, I would say that Sisters of Battle, lacking the genetic enhancements of the Space Marines, are overall less capable, but that their Acts of Faith allow them to temporarily surpass even the Astartes. In a way, that may well suffice to say they are equal - in-universe, both forces at least share respect for each other, and one of the Sisterhood's tasks is hunting down rogue Astartes Chapters.

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."
- 2E C:SoB


Obviously, with the fluff being somewhat malleable and open for interpretation, GW's vision of the Sororitas may not be shared by everyone. Certain Black Library novels in particular paint the Sisters in a much less capable way, usually to make the Marines look more awesome (*coughcough*). In the end, the Sisters are about as equal as you, the individual gamer and reader, want them to be.

Mythantor wrote:According to the latest SoB Codex ther is an unknown number of SoB. Each of the major order is split into a number of different sections each of which can number up to 1000 sisters.

Not quite - you are referring to the Minor Orders, which have split off from the Major ones. These subsidiary conventy can vary in strength from 1.000 members to a single Sister, with the average at about a hundred. They operate independently from the Major Orders and tend to be limited to local operations, lacking both the (wo)manpower and the means to participate in the really big conflicts, which is why you tend to only ever read about the six Major Orders (each of whom "currently" has about ~3.500 Sisters, though at peak times this number has been known to rise to 6.000).

The total number of Minor Orders is unknown - one could theorise based on the 2.500 years it took the Sororitas to reach the 30.000 mark, or on GW's force disposition charts for the Third Armageddon War and the 13th Black Crusade, but ultimately it remains a matter of speculation. My own guesstimate is at around 100k, maybe 200k. The Major Orders, being a crusading force, are bound to have a lot of attrition, which is why earlier Codex fluff mentioned their numbers fluctuating so much, posing a constant drain on the influx of new recruits from the Schola Progenium.

Spitting acid is not circumstantial in the slightest. It's an instant "I win" button in one on one combat where both are unarmed. Or reloading, or close together. It's pretty damn useful.
To those who think marines benching 2500 lbs unarmored, the average marine is 8ft tall and the worlds best strongman, Andy Bolton is less than 6'3 if I recall. Andy can bench 700lbs raw. Someone who makes Andy look like a dwarf in physical size with the same proportional muscle mass, and genetics could easily put up 1500lbs raw. This is ignoring the multiple hearts, and heavily enhanced muscles making them multitudes stronger.
This is ignoring the sillier stuff like marines shaping steel with thier hands (Thousand Sons) and dodging bullets point blank.

I am not sure if this is going anywhere. This seems more opinion-based than anything else. For every source that says 'SoB can equal Marines' there is something like 'Marines are far above what any human can reach' and things like that.

Just take what you prefer and go with it.

so it seems like you are all agreeing that a sister is stronger then a marine..

but against a primarch=dead sister

LightKing wrote:
so it seems like you are all agreeing that a sister is stronger then a marine..

but against a primarch=dead sister

What? I do not think anyone was...

What? Just whaaaaat?

Everyone is agreeing on that a Marine is equal to or superior to his SoB counterpart.

Primarch VS Sister? I think you'll struggle to find anyone saying anything else than an easy win for the Primarch.

Yeah, not really the way the thread went. In fact I don't think that anybody claimed that Sisters were superior. Maybe in terms of faith, but that's all.

 Troike wrote:
Yeah, not really the way the thread went. In fact I don't think that anybody claimed that Sisters were superior. Maybe in terms of faith, but that's all.

Indeed. Battlefield-wise, everyone said that Marines were equal to or superior to Sisters.

Seems reasonable, but then, 'equal to or superior' is a rather broad description.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Spitting acid is not circumstantial in the slightest. It's an instant "I win" button in one on one combat where both are unarmed.

It also means you're not wearing the helmet that keeps bolter shells, chain swords and other nuisances out of your face. IIRC the marines more often use the acid for gnawing through substances that would otherwise be hard to chew, like if they have to try surviving off ingesting normally inedible materials. And several Chapters don't have the organ functional anyway - at least those of Imperial Fist lineage on the loyalist side have lost it.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Spitting acid is not circumstantial in the slightest. It's an instant "I win" button in one on one combat where both are unarmed. Or reloading, or close together. It's pretty damn useful.

It is completely useless against soldiers wearing Power Armour. Which is the case.

I am yet to read a story when an Astartes fighting an enemy wearing Power Armour says: "bolter rounds and close combat weapons do nothing... let´s take out our helmets and spit at our enemies!!"

To those who think marines benching 2500 lbs unarmored, the average marine is 8ft tall and the worlds best strongman, Andy Bolton is less than 6'3 if I recall. Andy can bench 700lbs raw. Someone who makes Andy look like a dwarf in physical size with the same proportional muscle mass, and genetics could easily put up 1500lbs raw.
This is ignoring the multiple hearts, and heavily enhanced muscles making them multitudes stronger.

And yet, every single source ever written shows the Sisters really close to marines. It seems meltas and faith are enough to get a decent chance of blowing up a marine before it has a chance to spit

This is ignoring the sillier stuff like marines shaping steel with thier hands (Thousand Sons) and dodging bullets point blank.

And ignoring the Sisters throwing beams of light out of their eyes because of the power their faith in the Emperor gives them. Silly stuff is silly.

 Troike wrote:
Yeah, not really the way the thread went. In fact I don't think that anybody claimed that Sisters were superior. Maybe in terms of faith, but that's all.

Not superior, but it is not a one-sided match at all.

Apart of all the sources provided, I still think the tabletop is the best way to compare them: Sisters are 12 points, Chaos Space Marine 13 points, Space Marines 14 points. A Genestealer is 14 points too and a Veteran is 7 points.

LightKing wrote:
so it seems like you are all agreeing that a sister is stronger then a marine..

but against a primarch=dead sister

At the risk of being stoned to death by fanboys, I am contesting this.

Sisters and Primarchs do not belong to the same age (30k vs 40k), but Sisters are humans.

And humans can defeat Primarchs. The setting is open, there is no such thing as a instant win for anyone.

Kor Phaeron was an old priest that never made it into an Astartes. He was no psyker. He was only an old man who believed in the gods. Yet he was really close to defeat Guilliman. And Luther defeated the Lion. And Temba wounded Horus. And Malcador was stupidly powerful. And Macharius went beyond anything a Primarch achieved.

Do not discard humans. They are quite important in the setting.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I am not sure if this is going anywhere. This seems more opinion-based than anything else. For every source that says 'SoB can equal Marines' there is something like 'Marines are far above what any human can reach' and things like that.

Just take what you prefer and go with it.

I still believe it is somehow important to make clear that the background of the game does not support the "marines are >>>> the rest" internet meme.

If you read some topics of the background forum, they usually go like this:
1- I think this because Space Marines are awesome.
2- Space Marines are awesome. This must be right.
3- I love Space Marines too! So awesome!
4- And I am pretty sure the fluff says so!
5- Space Marines are Awesome! The fluff says so!
All numbers - The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
A- Wait... there is this source that says otherwise.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! This author must be an idiot... let´s say his books are crappy!
C- And this other source says the same.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! The fluff is contradictory. Down with these authors!!
D- Could any of you provide a single source depicting the Sisters being easily defeated by Marines?
---- Silence ----
3- Well there is this source that says so.
All numbers - Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
D- No it doesn´t. Here is the quote. It says exactly the opposite.
---- Silence ----

Eventually, the topic reboot and it starts again.

There are two reasons why I think it is worthy to keep giving quotes and keeping these discussions alive:
1) It reduces the number of fanboys. Sure, some people will stand their ground no matter what, but other people will see the background with new eyes. If you let fanboys join forces for long, they reproduce, because new players think that they are right.
2) More sinister: I think people from GW keep an eye on this stuff. That explain how things that were just internet memes eventually made it into the "official" background. Stuff like "the Chaos Legions are disbanded", "there are only 4 Chaos Gods", "World Eaters are just dumb people that charges blindly", "Necrons are just Tomb Kings in space" or "Black Templars hated all psykers and they do without reason" eventually turned "official".

At this moment, you see a lot of people claiming that Sisters are little more than Veterans with power armour. For instance, the people behind Behavior Interactive are making a game called Eternal Crusade (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/537854.page) and they have already stated that Sisters are not going to make it into the game since the only use they would have is "being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons." (http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/). By the way, they also said something about Genestealers being << Marines, so it seems we have a "SM are awesome" case here.

If this keeps on, eventually we will lose another faction. Not the first time. At the end, Fanboys and Haters are not fun, they can, literally, destroy the game

 da001 wrote:

I still believe it is somehow important to make clear that the background of the game does not support the "marines are >>>> the rest" internet meme.

If you read some topics of the background forum, they usually go like this:
1- I think this because Space Marines are awesome.
2- Space Marines are awesome. This must be right.
3- I love Space Marines too! So awesome!
4- And I am pretty sure the fluff says so!
5- Space Marines are Awesome! The fluff says so!
All numbers - The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
A- Wait... there is this source that says otherwise.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! This author must be an idiot... let´s say his books are crappy!
C- And this other source says the same.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! The fluff is contradictory. Down with these authors!!
D- Could any of you provide a single source depicting the Sisters being easily defeated by Marines?
---- Silence ----
3- Well there is this source that says so.
All numbers - Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
D- No it doesn´t. Here is the quote. It says exactly the opposite.
---- Silence ----

Eventually, the topic reboot and it starts again.

Hey now, no need to insult them. When one has only a casual or one-sided view of the fluff, it's easy to percieve Marines as somewhat better than they really are, it's a common thing. Not their fault. But some people can be persuaded to see the setting in a less Marine-centric way, if others just post the relevant fluff.

 da001 wrote:
but other people will see the background with new eyes.

I think that this is a good reason too. A lot of the more obscure fluff is pretty cool as well as insightful, so it's good to share it.

 da001 wrote:
At this moment, you see a lot of people claiming that Sisters are little more than Veterans with power armour.

Yeah, this can be annoying. But it's easily debunked too, just point to the AoFs, Sheild of Faith and the life-long training.

 da001 wrote:
For instance, the people behind Behavior Interactive are making a game called Eternal Crusade (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/537854.page) and they have already stated that Sisters are not going to make it into the game since the only use they would have is "being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons." (http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/). By the way, they also said something about Genestealers being << Marines, so it seems we have a "SM are awesome" case here.

I have some good news for you, it seems. Miguel actually apologised for that statement on here after people quesitoned it. A few posts later and Lyanta emailed them all (or most) of the SoB studio fluff there is, at their request. So they obviously care about getting the Sisters right. A few months later, Creative Director (IIRC) David Ghozland tweeted that Sisters were on the list of factions to be added to the game. And in an interview, Miguel noted that Sisters were one of the top three most requested factions to be added.

Don't worry, I think that the Sisters will do okay in that particular venture. And a neat thing about Behaviour is that they're very open with the fans, so should there be any major concerns, they can be voiced.

 da001 wrote:
If this keeps on, eventually we will lose another faction. Not the first time. At the end, Fanboys and Haters are not fun, they can, literally, destroy the game

Psh, the Sisters have stuck around this long. They'll be fine. GW just made them another codex, didn't they? Now why do that if they're considering dropping the Sisters? It sold well too, so even if it was some sort of "test", well, test passed.

Worry not, strangely pious heretic, it shall take more than the Internet to defeat the Orders Militant!

Now if only GW would stop being afraid of money and release some plastic miniatures.

 da001 wrote:


If you read some topics of the background forum, they usually go like this:
1- I think this because Space Marines are awesome.
2- Space Marines are awesome. This must be right.
3- I love Space Marines too! So awesome!
4- And I am pretty sure the fluff says so!
5- Space Marines are Awesome! The fluff says so!
All numbers - The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
A- Wait... there is this source that says otherwise.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! This author must be an idiot... let´s say his books are crappy!
C- And this other source says the same.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! The fluff is contradictory. Down with these authors!!
D- Could any of you provide a single source depicting the Sisters being easily defeated by Marines?
---- Silence ----
3- Well there is this source that says so.
All numbers - Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
D- No it doesn´t. Here is the quote. It says exactly the opposite.
---- Silence ----

What's so wrong with a civilised and respectful discussion?

Troike wrote:Hey now, no need to insult them. When one has only a casual or one-sided view of the fluff, it's easy to percieve Marines as somewhat better than they really are, it's a common thing. Not their fault.

He's got a point, though - there are posters who either just do not read certain replies, or ignore the points they raise, resulting in a steadfast adherence to the opinion they went into the thread with rather than at least acceeding that, yes, there are multiple possibilities, and that it depends on where you look.

All of 40k fluff works like this, yet I often get the feeling that half the fandom does not "get" this.

To be fair, I was once one of these posters myself, just because I did not understand how the background works until I hunted down various quotes from the people actually working with this company, rather than blindly believing what I was told by other fans. The telephone game and internet hyperbole are two of the worst issues this community has to deal with.
I still feel every 40k website should have a sticky clarifying this. It'd make debates so much easier if everyone would at least start on the basis that "there is no wrong", or if there was a policy about fluff debates having to focus on specific sources in addition to the topic. Otherwise, all you end up with are one group of people screaming that 2+2=4 and the other opposing this by yelling that, no, 1+3=4.

Also, note how we've once again arrived at Marines being 8 feet tall? Excellent timing for this example.

Troike wrote:Psh, the Sisters have stuck around this long. They'll be fine. GW just made them another codex, didn't they? Now why do that if they're considering dropping the Sisters? It sold well too, so even if it was some sort of "test", well, test passed.
Worry not, strangely pious heretic, it shall take more than the Internet to defeat the Orders Militant!

As much as I had chided you for your boundless optimism in the past, at times it can indeed be refreshing.

And yeah, we really got lucky with how Miguel and his colleagues handle community input. This kind of communication is a rare thing indeed.

Sister = The strength of a human who's been working out augmented by some armour.
Space Marine = The strength of a heavyweight champion/bodybuilder with genetic agumentations, supported by his hench armour. There have been examples of space marines punching through people, I mean.. Their combat blades are the equivalent to conventional swords.. Also Space Marines are way tougher due to the Black Carapace, which would protect them from most of the hits a Sister could lay down in combat :3

At the end of the day, toss a coin, that's how it goes.

 Psienesis wrote:
At the end of the day, toss a coin, that's how it goes.

Even in the tabletop Space Marines have +1S and T..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Even in the tabletop Space Marines have +1S and T..

And it is significant, that's true. Which is why SoB sent to put down a rogue Chapter most certainly aren't going to try it 1-on-1 but more like 3-on-1 at a minimum. And if the sisters lose 2400 in putting down a thousand rogue marines it's a great victory, with many new martyrs to celebrate - and maybe a few will become Imperial Saints!

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Sister = The strength of a human who's been working out augmented by some armour.
Space Marine = The strength of a heavyweight champion/bodybuilder with genetic agumentations, supported by his hench armour. There have been examples of space marines punching through people, I mean.. Their combat blades are the equivalent to conventional swords.. Also Space Marines are way tougher due to the Black Carapace, which would protect them from most of the hits a Sister could lay down in combat :3

Well except the delicious penetration of a bolter shot that then exploded from within, the furious melta burning awa all in its path, and I can still ruin you with some good ol' roastin!

EDIT: Also, HUZZAH! Someday the Sisters shall return cheaper than before and in glorious metal! Death to all xenos and heretics!

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
At the end of the day, toss a coin, that's how it goes.

Even in the tabletop Space Marines have +1S and T..

Melta gives not a single feth for your S and your T. It melts tanks.

And Sisters come *loaded* with Melta.

 Lynata wrote:
He's got a point, though - there are posters who either just do not read certain replies, or ignore the points they raise, resulting in a steadfast adherence to the opinion they went into the thread with rather than at least acceeding that, yes, there are multiple possibilities, and that it depends on where you look.

All of 40k fluff works like this, yet I often get the feeling that half the fandom does not "get" this.

Sure, not everyone is going to be so receptive. I guess all I'm trying to say is that don't assume the worst in those who disagree, it can often be an honest mistake caused by never having seen more obscure fluff before.

Spetulhu wrote:
Which is why SoB sent to put down a rogue Chapter most certainly aren't going to try it 1-on-1 but more like 3-on-1 at a minimum.

Not necessarily. Remember the Strikeforce article that was posted earlier in the thread? It talked about how Sisters often go after rogue Chapters using a hard, precision strike against its leadership. So the Sisters don't necessarily have to just drown the Chapter in bodies until it's beaten, they can also use precision strikes to weaken the Chapter rather than just facing them head-on.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Sister = The strength of a human who's been working out augmented by some armour.

That's not all they are, they also have Acts of Faith and their Shield of Faith. So, they can boost themselves to superhuman feats too.

Sisters have been shown to be capable of punching Space Marines with more strength than Space Marines can manage

Troike wrote:Not necessarily. Remember the Strikeforce article that was posted earlier in the thread? It talked about how Sisters often go after rogue Chapters using a hard, precision strike against its leadership. So the Sisters don't necessarily have to just drown the Chapter in bodies until its beaten, they can also use precision strikes to weaken the Chapter rather than just facing them head-on.

Even more, that is in fact the only method of attack they have ever been shown to use in core GW publications - once in the CJ strikeforce article, and once in the Index Astartes article on Renegade Marines.

Drowning the enemy in bodies is what you have the Guard for - the organisation that even the Space Marines go to get help from "if an enemy is too numerous or too well entrenched".

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters have been shown to be capable of punching Space Marines with more strength than Space Marines can manage

Where?

Also, I am not sure if I like the tone in this thread currently. It is starting to feel like 'My army kicks the butt of your army.' Not pointing at any specific side of the argument.

Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters have been shown to be capable of punching Space Marines with more strength than Space Marines can manage

Where?

Also, I am not sure if I like the tone in this thread currently. It is starting to feel like 'My army kicks the butt of your army.' Not pointing at any specific side of the argument.

That is how all of these threads go.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

Outdated rules are outdated.

Terminator armour used to be a 3+ on 2D6. That does not mean that Terminator Armour is six times as good at deflecting damage as Power Armour is.

 Psienesis wrote:
That is how all of these threads go.

Honestly, this one started out that way from the freaking TITLE.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That is how all of these threads go.

Honestly, this one started out that way from the freaking TITLE.

No, it said 'so Sister of Battle = Space Marine', not 'so Sister of Battle > Space Marine'.

I can see no 'My army > your army' in the thread title.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

Outdated rules are outdated.

Terminator armour used to be a 3+ on 2D6. That does not mean that Terminator Armour is six times as good at deflecting damage as Power Armour is.

This is not an argument of table-top rules.

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

Outdated rules are outdated.

Terminator armour used to be a 3+ on 2D6. That does not mean that Terminator Armour is six times as good at deflecting damage as Power Armour is.

This is not an argument of table-top rules.

Indeed. I was pointing out that using tabletop rules as a reference point is fallacy.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Outdated rules are outdated.

They're also quite capable of it in the RPGs as well, though I am loathe to quote from Blood of Martyrs. And there's plenty of other examples of Sisters being capable of outshining Space Marines in bursts of glory, as well. It's no surprise really, considering that "Marines and Sisters are equals on the field of combat" is Games Workshop's opinion, stated repeatedly and consistently, no matter how much you object to it.

Insert line about a pathological need to prove your plastic soldiers are better than the other person's plastic soldiers here.