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Wow this thread is moving fast...

 da001 wrote:

And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.

She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.

 da001 wrote:
Wow this thread is moving fast...

i mean Sanguinius and Angron would absolutely decimate a sister in close combat, it wouldn't be even funny

LightKing wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Wow this thread is moving fast...

i mean Sanguinius and Angron would absolutely decimate a sister in close combat, it wouldn't be even funny

So you admit Magnus would be completely unable to do so?

 Psienesis wrote:


Apparently not, as Curze was killed by M'Shen, who was not even Vindicare.

Sigh.

Why do this Psienesis?

Anyway, M'Shen killed Curze with a C'tan Phase Sword, which phases through basically everything as though it were not there. It is sort of constructed from a star god after all.

 da001 wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Wow this thread is moving fast...

i mean Sanguinius and Angron would absolutely decimate a sister in close combat, it wouldn't be even funny

So you admit Magnus would be completely unable to do so?

Magnus is still a primarch and has vastly superior physical abilities against a sister, in close combat, he would swat her like a fly

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I uh, don't know about all that Wyzilla.

Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

We're aware that Bolters are .70 cal, explosive, and have a velocity of something in the neighborhood of 20000 feet per second. Those don't go all the way through marines unarmored. They go deep enough to do damage to organs.
Modern day .50 cal wont do much to a marine.
Tell that to FFG or Black library. If something can normally shrug off bolter rounds reliably, then from a TT to fluff perspective it wont get dented by a lasgun.

 Psienesis wrote:
So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.

A C'tan's necrodermis, not just some random Necron's.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.

Pretty much. Although you'd have to land the hit considering most of them would be able to rip apart a Necron with their bare hands and are stupidly fast and have powerful weapons of their own. Then there's the Primarch able to rip them apart with his mind.
(And the one who wrestled one to death. In lava.)

Although-


No, not because it's made of Necrodermis. Phase weaponry kills because it doesn't care how good your armor is. It phases out of reality and pops back in your stomach.

That was apparently a function of Necrodermis with the CPS was created. No, I don't understand how or why either, but apparently that was why.

And (in response to Void) Necrodermis is Necrodermis. We are not told that the C'Tan had their bodies built out of a different material of the same name as the rest of the Necrons.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

It could not reliably penetrate the armour, but just his bare face? Come on.

This whole thread reminds me of DBZ arguments.

''This dude can destroy a planet by farting, so throwing a rock at him won't hurt him. No, he can die by throwing two planets at him etc.''

It just sounds so silly.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
This whole thread reminds me of DBZ arguments.

''This dude can destroy a planet by farting, so throwing a rock at him won't hurt him. No, he can die by throwing two planets at him etc.''

It just sounds so silly.

why is it silly?....

Oh, it's incredibly silly, and I think I'm just done with it.

 da001 wrote:
Sorcery.
He wasn´t born a psyker. He did it the hard way... through study and will-power. He (perhaps) manipulated a Primarch with his words and nearly defeated another with the power the gods gave him because his faith.... during the Heresy he caused.

Seriously, some humans kick ass.

Do not get me wrong, Kor Phaeron is Metal as feth, but you're frankly moving the goalposts here.

Arguable. Both of them. Sources about Luther are contradictory at best.

"Although the Primarch possessed immense
power, the two opponents were equally matched, for Luther's
abilities were enhanced by vast forces gifted to him by the
Dark Gods. What followed was a fight of titanic proportions.
As tl1e two adversaries traded blows, shock waves shook tl1e
monastery, causing chunks of masonry to crash dOWll around
them."
- Dark Angels 6e codex, page 9

And some Sisters can turn into Living Saints. Perhaps a particularly powerful Living Saint with a relic (named) armour and one of those incredible weapons the setting has may have a chance against a Primarch in a proper context.

Hey man sure.

LightKing wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
This whole thread reminds me of DBZ arguments.

''This dude can destroy a planet by farting, so throwing a rock at him won't hurt him. No, he can die by throwing two planets at him etc.''

It just sounds so silly.

why is it silly?....

What he's describing is silly enough for me to crack a smile but that's not what's going on.
Regardless let's quit the primarch debate.
In my final opinion: A sister has 0 chance one on one with a marine in any contest or circumstance. And there are more marines than sisters. There.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

It could not reliably penetrate the armour, but just his bare face? Come on.

Unlikely. IIRC, there's at least one Sergeant that took a bolter round to the face and survived it. While a fifty would likely mess up the face pretty bad, it'd probably cleanly deflect off the skull (albeit likely burning up a lot of the scalp).

 Psienesis wrote:

Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

Prove that "small arms" in this context are laspistols and autoguns.

why is this a silly debate? i like a good debate?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

Prove that "small arms" in this context are laspistols and autoguns.

Especially considering the arms the enemy were using were lasguns and merely scorching the armor of the charging loyalist Death Guard. One guy tanked a shot in his helmet and merely had his auspex and vox scrambled by the energy but shook it off. Autoguns (or as we know them, modern-style firearms), harmlessly ping off armor with no affect, even at point-blank range.

 Psienesis wrote:

And (in response to Void) Necrodermis is Necrodermis. We are not told that the C'Tan had their bodies built out of a different material of the same name as the rest of the Necrons.

No, but we do know that the average Necron's fist doesn't phase through power armour and everything else.

I mean, both a steel sword and a steel wristband are made of the same material. But only one is a lethal weapon under ordinary circumstances.

... I mean, really? Is your argument literally that a Necron's fist is the same as a C'tan Phase Sword?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And (in response to Void) Necrodermis is Necrodermis. We are not told that the C'Tan had their bodies built out of a different material of the same name as the rest of the Necrons.

No, but we do know that the average Necron's fist doesn't phase through power armour and everything else.

I mean, both a steel sword and a steel wristband are made of the same material. But only one is a lethal weapon under ordinary circumstances.

... I mean, really? Is your argument literally that a Necron's fist is the same as a C'tan Phase Sword?

Which it isn't, because it's a weapon of it's own. Hold on, I'll check the codex real fast.
And nope. It's pretty clear that you're just making up man, phase weaponry is a power weapon that vibrates between different dimensions. It sure as isn't normal necrodermis. A necron's fist isn't going to punch through your armor- but any phase weaponry on hand will.

(Although I don't remember any instance of Iron Halos interacting with Phase Weapons, which might do something, I don't know.)

Why did you quote me and accuse me of making gak up.

imscared

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why did you quote me and accuse me of making gak up.

imscared

Not you, that was reinforcing your point directed at Psi.

MWHistorian wrote:But maybe when the SOB codex said "Equal to Space Marine," they meant it in a general battle force kind of way. Getting attacked by the SOB is just as bad as getting attacked by Marines. That's how I interpret it. There's a lot of talk about sisters fighting a marine in unarmed combat 1 on 1. Of course a Marine would waste a sister in that case, but that won't happen too often. A marine can get shot just like anyone else or overpowered by two or three sisters.

That wasn't the Codex, but the GW website - and no, it did not mean numbers either, but specifically said that what allows the Sisters to catch up would be their intense faith.

As I said earlier, the way I'm reading this is that Marine combat efficiency goes: --------
Whereas, compared to that, the Sisters go: __*Act of Faith!*/\__
So, pretty much how it works in the game(s).

Wyzilla wrote:And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.

Not in GW's rules - both the TT and Inquisitor.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

Prove that "small arms" in this context are laspistols and autoguns.

Apart from the numbers in that fluff quote reflecting the game mechanics, there is also the context of the sentence. "Reduces injuries against small arms by X, and provides some protection against more powerful stuff".

Also, when you think of "40k" and "small arms", what else could it be?

Void__Dragon wrote:a genetically and Warp engineered superman designed by the most brilliant scientific and psychic mind in human history

Dr. Outek was a psyker?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.

An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.

Where is that written then did that actually happen in a novel? Im not doubting you, I'd just like to read it. I mean, it makes sense, like I said, BL writers clearly know feth all about actual guns and wars!

Regardless, the point I was making is that the fluff is purposely vague, so its hard for anyone to be right or anyone else to be wrong, from a common sense point of view, there is absolutely no way at all that an ordinary high velocity rifle wouldn't smash right through a Primarchs skull, do you know much about firearms? I didnt make my comment with reference to a book, just real life knowledge and common sense.

On a professional bullet pen range, you take some large wooden cubes, and place thick wooden boards separated by 6 inches of hard packed sand into them, and you then fire your weapons at them to see which has the best penetration. I fired all kinds of pistols and rifles into said boxes, and I even fired an old ass M1 Garand into one just for kicks, it was mainly for fun, but it teaches you something, mainly that your average screenwriter or director knows feth all about guns either.

Even a glock will usually smash two boards, I think a standard L2 went through like, 4 of them. If you fire a decent sized rifle, or heaven forbid something longer and larger, with a large caliber or with AP rounds, the thing will crack gak loads of them. You can easily kill people through cars, brick walls, trees, whatever.

The Primachs presumably have something akin to bone for their skeletal systems right? Same goes for Orks. We dont use elepthant guns because a regular rifle round will "bounce" off the elephant, ut simply because it is less cruel. You could easily kill an elephant with an M4.

Ergo, you could easily put down an Ork, or a Primarch, or a Space Marine, with a regular rifle.

Unless they have skeletal systems that are made from something tougher than steel plate (rounds go through steel plate as well by the way) at which point it would bring problems all of its own, because the cartilatege and such would not be able to move the muscle and blah blah blah blah

My point is, the fluff doesn't make sense, so why argue about fiction which isnt well enough explored for anyone to be right or wrong?

And I cant believe that I expended such effort on this topic, but I rather enjoyed it nonetheless.

Oh yeah, and I just read AURE by Abnett, and Gulliman kills 20 fully armed Alpha Legion guys with his bare hands, and afterwards, one of his advisors rebukes him and says that "One stray round to your head, and all of our dreams are dust" not "Ah well, they would just bonunce off your titanic skull my lord"

Which suggests that surely, they don't have skulls made of stronger than steel miracle alloys that nobody has mentioned, right?

Like I said, the fluff is deliberately ambiguous, but Mel had the right of it from a simple "real world common sense" POV.

The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.

Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.

 Melissia wrote:
The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.

Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.

Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.

 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.

Yeah, this is why firepower > biology.

Ever read the Salvation War series?

Granted, some of the older (and I mean really old) GW fluff mentions the Primarchs not only as superhuman, but supernatural beings, empowered by the Warp itself and possessing a variety of powers obtained from this. It really depends on where you look - ironically, it seems that future publications made the Marines themselves out to be stronger, whereas the Primarchs got weaker.

And that's just talking about GW's own books - as mentioned before, every novel writer prolly has their own idea on the subject, too, much like the fans.
I do wonder if some of those writers were inspired by the older material, though. It could of course be as simple as a tendency of "one-upping" each other with supposed Epicness of such tales, but on the other hand it could simply be that just like any other fan they grew up on different material.

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.

Yeah, this is why firepower > biology.

Ever read the Salvation War series?

I haven't, whats the score? Actually, you best PM that, we don't want to drag this one OT its too enjoyable a read.

But the point is you are right on the money, in fact you clearly know more about war than all of our politicians.

Modern tech is the ultimate force multiplier, right on the money. A lucky las round hits Gulliman in the eye, and he goes down like a lead balloon, c'est la vie.

The invention of landmines and IED's has basically ensured that two of the most powerful military forces in the world (US/UK) have struggled to put down a bunch of illiterate fething idiots in 12 years. What other proof do people need?