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 da001 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.

Source?

The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.

But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.

I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...) W40K is a black comedy with satire served everywhere and everything being a parody to some degree. (...)

That´s true.

However, it is easy to forget, mostly because all the grimdark and because most humor is English humor with witty references to stuff that is no longer there.

Look at James Swallow's fear to tread and anything featuring Sanguinus.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.

Source?

The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.

But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.

I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?

Look at James Swallow's fear to tread and anything featuring Sanguinus.

I know the novel. I actually mentioned it in my post, something you clearly missed.

Here is link to the BL: http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/fear-to-tread.html
Look at the summary: "the Blood Angels must face all the warp-spawned armies of Chaos, as well their own personal daemons, upon the blasted plains of Signus Prime"

Sanguinius does not even fight Astartes in this novel. It says nothing about the Battle of Terra and the defense of the Imperial Palace. It is about the battle of Signus Prime. Seven years before Terra.

By the way, I am pretty sure I have read lots and lots of stuff about Sanguinius, including the novel Fear to Thread. And I have never heard anything of him fighting thousands of marines by himself or moving at supersonic speed. It sounds quite silly to me, like some fan-fiction. I am open to the possibility that you know a source new to me. But you are not saying it. And what is worse, you are referring to a source that says the opposite you are claiming. You have mistaken this novel with another novel... I hope.

When I asked for a source, I didn´t mean "say a book you know the name and hope I did not read it". This usually does not work.

 da001 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.

Source?

The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.

But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.

I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?

Look at James Swallow's fear to tread and anything featuring Sanguinus.

I know the novel. I actually mentioned it in my post, something you clearly missed.

Here is link to the BL: http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/fear-to-tread.html
Look at the summary: "the Blood Angels must face all the warp-spawned armies of Chaos, as well their own personal daemons, upon the blasted plains of Signus Prime"

Sanguinius does not even fight Astartes in this novel. It says nothing about the Battle of Terra and the defense of the Imperial Palace. It is about the battle of Signus Prime. Seven years before Terra.

By the way, I am pretty sure I have read lots and lots of stuff about Sanguinius, including the novel Fear to Thread. And I have never heard anything of him fighting thousands of marines by himself or moving at supersonic speed. It sounds quite silly to me, like some fan-fiction. I am open to the possibility that you know a source new to me. But you are not saying it. And what is worse, you are referring to a source that says the opposite you are claiming. You have mistaken this novel with another novel... I hope.

When I asked for a source, I didn´t mean "say a book you know the name and hope I did not read it". This usually does not work.

I know you read the book. Sanguinius again appears blurred to astartes in his movements, and creates shockwaves with his attacks.

Wyzilla wrote:There's ignoring canon, and then there's outright ignoring everything and living in a delusional false image of what it even is

There's also the delusion that "canon" even exists, and ignoring what the writers themselves have said about the sources you cling to.

By now, this entire debate is pointless - we have people desperately attempting to enforce their personally preferred interpretation as the one and only truth, and then we have people who have accepted that the background is malleable and tells you different things depending on the material you're looking at.
There does not seem to be a common ground here anymore, is there?

I can only hope that, as Troike said earlier, some readers would have at least taken some useful information away from this embarrassing thread.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I know you read the book. Sanguinius again appears blurred to astartes in his movements, and creates shockwaves with his attacks.

And?
Supersonic speed and fighting thousands of marines by himself?

Eldar appear blurred to humans too, specially Dark Eldars. Even when they record them, they need to speed down the video to actually see what are they doing. And shockwaves are created by any explosion or strong attack. It has nothing to do with moving at over 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s), which would be an incredibly brutal power.

The closest thing to this in the setting is a human, the Inquisitor Quixos, another example of a "mere human" that went far beyond most Marines can ever dream.

 Lynata wrote:
By now, this entire debate is pointless

Honestly all ''vs'' debates are pointless.

 Lynata wrote:
(...)
I can only hope that, as Troike said earlier, some readers would have at least taken some useful information away from this embarrassing thread.

Actually, LightKing has already created a new thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/569113.page
"so a canoness is stronger then a primarch"

So I think this one is soon to die. I am surprised it made it so far.

Lord Spartacus wrote:Honestly all ''vs'' debates are pointless.

Point taken - especially when comparing different settings though. I cringe every time I see one of those threads here.

But yes, I suppose they kind of bring out the worst in people, pitting fan against fan by having them toss their favoured sources at each other, with the only thing that matters being the number of posters taking one's side in an effort to drown the opposition out.

 da001 wrote:
Eldar appear blurred to humans too, specially Dark Eldars. Even when they record them, they need to speed down the video to actually see what are they doing. And shockwaves are created by any explosion or strong attack. It has nothing to do with moving at over 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s), which would be an incredibly brutal power.

TBH any melee attack that doesn't involve a grip or dramatically impaling someone and posing might be blurred to people observing it. Bruce Lee wasn't "ordinary people" but he was just a man, and as I recall they had to ask him to slow down in fight scenes so the audience had a chance to see what he did.

^This.

That´s what I think of when I read something like that.

Just to point out something, logically Lasguns should be rather useless against power armour. They have very little penetration and deal their damage with heat. Yes, heat. Against a ceramic material. Lasguns are perhaps very very very hot, seeing as they are future weapons, but in the same way PA is future armour.

Ceramics are simply eccelent at resisting and isolating from heat because they are forged in über-heat in the first place. PA does seem to hard counter las-weapons from what I can see.

Yeah but then hellguns/hotshot lasgun show up and punch through PA like its not even there.

Plasma weapons, too, and melta, for what its worth go through terminator armor and are described as ''very warm'' to say the least.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Just to point out something, logically Lasguns should be rather useless against power armour. They have very little penetration and deal their damage with heat. Yes, heat. Against a ceramic material. Lasguns are perhaps very very very hot, seeing as they are future weapons, but in the same way PA is future armour.

Ceramics are simply eccelent at resisting and isolating from heat because they are forged in über-heat in the first place. PA does seem to hard counter las-weapons from what I can see.

Actually, iirc, lasguns don't kill a SM by penetrating the armor. What happens is that a beam slips through a joint or gap in the armor from time to time, where it isn't as well covered with ceramite as the rest of the armor.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I uh, don't know about all that Wyzilla.

Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

I'm talking about a modern one. It'd harmlessly ping off the armor. And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.
(And Orks just get burnt skin.)

That doesn't make any sense. If lasguns did jack against orks, why bother giving them to the IG? The orks are the most common xeno enemy the IoM face, so giving your soldiers weapons that do not harm them would be idiotic. It would be like the US army being out-fitted with pop guns.

Because it's cheaper to mass produce humans than it is to mass produce quality weapons. They do however kill with concentrated fire or full auto on an Ork, but several blasts aren't going to kill it.
(Doesn't help that Orks don't really have vital organs and their brains can be missed despite shooting them in the head.)

 Lord Spartacus wrote:


Honestly all ''vs'' debates are pointless.

Much like painting and playing with model soldiers, or posting about 40k fluff in general.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:


Honestly all ''vs'' debates are pointless.

Much like painting and playing with model soldiers, or posting about 40k fluff in general.

Nerds will be nerds, and we will always have our versus debates. I guess he didn't read into the details of the membership.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Just to point out something, logically Lasguns should be rather useless against power armour. They have very little penetration and deal their damage with heat. Yes, heat. Against a ceramic material. Lasguns are perhaps very very very hot, seeing as they are future weapons, but in the same way PA is future armour.

Ceramics are simply eccelent at resisting and isolating from heat because they are forged in über-heat in the first place. PA does seem to hard counter las-weapons from what I can see.

Actually, iirc, lasguns don't kill a SM by penetrating the armor. What happens is that a beam slips through a joint or gap in the armor from time to time, where it isn't as well covered with ceramite as the rest of the armor.

Regarless of the way, we know Lasguns kill Orks and Marines, because all fluff regarding the Imperial Guard and Traitor Guard / Lost of the Damned has them using Lasguns to kill Orks and Marines. And it applies too to all descriptions of the setting in all media: RPG, books, videogames, the tabletop.

What really bugs me is how would anyone like the concept of Space Marines heroically charging against a regiment of traitor guardsmen through heavy Lasgun fire if they believe Lasguns are totally useless against Power Armour. That´s your definition of heroism?

That´s the definition of lame. Astartes would be... bullies, pricks, I don´t know, but definitely not heroes. And the Imperial Guard would be a bunch of morons shooting their flashlights.

And it is even worse if you manage to believe that Lasguns do not kill Orks. That´s the second main enemy of the guard. Countless battles in countless wars across the galaxy have the Hammer of the Emperor using Lasguns against Orks.

And the funniest thing is that some people claiming this is claiming that sisters are little more than guardsmen, when, since they use Power Armour, if this absurdity were true then they would be able to face a million guards and kill them all while remaining unscathed.

And, as Bobthehero said, a hotshot lasgun can go though Power Armour as if it is not there. Let alone plasma or melta.

@BrotherHaraldus: I am still waiting the first issue of Tentacles and Iron. By the way I took the liberty to add some reasonable, not over the top stuff to the background of your first daughter with Void__Dragon, Macarena. It is on page 13 and page 14 on this same thread. Perhaps you missed it. I started with her death, we can always get her back if needed. The only think I have yet to think about is how she entered a Sisters of Battle order in spite of her obvious, embarrassing, foul-smelling, sticky, pulsating, sexually attractive & active, highly evident mutations.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:


Honestly all ''vs'' debates are pointless.

Much like painting and playing with model soldiers, or posting about 40k fluff in general.

Wise words right here.
Exalted.

Sister Macarena would be proud of you.

da001 wrote:Regarless of the way, we know Lasguns kill Orks and Marines, because all fluff regarding the Imperial Guard and Traitor Guard / Lost of the Damned has them using Lasguns to kill Orks and Marines. And it applies too to all descriptions of the setting in all media: RPG, books, videogames, the tabletop.

They do have a point in that some fluff (novels and FW army books) contradicts the studio material, so once again it comes down to what people "grew up" with.
The way a lasgun works in GW's world is that the intense energy beam causes the target zone to heat up, causing a small explosion as the material expands. It doesn't work as well against power armour due to its honeycomb structure and ceramite layer, but depending on the exact spot where the blast hits (previously damaged area, or just a spot where the armour is not "up to an inch" thick), there's still a ~15% chance that it will cause sufficient localised damage to punch through and injure the wearer. On average, Marines can take such injuries better than the average human, but this too depends on where exactly they're hit, and/or how many injuries they have already suffered.

This is nicely portrayed in the rules for GW's Inquisitor game, though with a bit of skullsweat it is not too difficult to apply the same background to the abstracted tabletop rules as well to justify/explain the small chance of an IG trooper mini to take down a Marine.


Totally agree about the "heroism" bit, by the way. Well said.

 Lynata wrote:

da001 wrote:Regarless of the way, we know Lasguns kill Orks and Marines, because all fluff regarding the Imperial Guard and Traitor Guard / Lost of the Damned has them using Lasguns to kill Orks and Marines. And it applies too to all descriptions of the setting in all media: RPG, books, videogames, the tabletop.

They do have a point in that some fluff (novels and FW army books) contradicts the studio material, so once again it comes down to what people "grew up" with.
The way a lasgun works in GW's world is that the intense energy beam causes the target zone to heat up, causing a small explosion as the material expands. It doesn't work as well against power armour due to its honeycomb structure and ceramite layer, but depending on the exact spot where the blast hits (previously damaged area, or just a spot where the armour is not "up to an inch" thick), there's still a ~15% chance that it will cause sufficient localised damage to punch through and injure the wearer. On average, Marines can take such injuries better than the average human, but this too depends on where exactly they're hit, and/or how many injuries they have already suffered.

This is nicely portrayed in the rules for GW's Inquisitor game, though with a bit of skullsweat it is not too difficult to apply the same background to the abstracted tabletop rules as well to justify/explain the small chance of an IG trooper mini to take down a Marine.


Totally agree about the "heroism" bit, by the way. Well said.

The fact is: they have a chance. And it is not that small: about 12% in the tabletop, 15% in other sources. It doesn´t actually matter how they work. A Marine is risking his life when charging against a position hold by mere humans with Lasguns.

Coming to think of it, I never found interesting the explanation of how a Lasgun (or any other futuristic gizmo) work. I mean the details. It is all made on the spot, with people who usually lack a scientific career talking about technology 40000 years in the future, who is expressed through legends, half-lies and tales. We wouldn´t be able to understand how it works even if it was correctly explained.

 da001 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I know you read the book. Sanguinius again appears blurred to astartes in his movements, and creates shockwaves with his attacks.

And?
Supersonic speed and fighting thousands of marines by himself?

Eldar appear blurred to humans too, specially Dark Eldars. Even when they record them, they need to speed down the video to actually see what are they doing. And shockwaves are created by any explosion or strong attack. It has nothing to do with moving at over 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s), which would be an incredibly brutal power.

The closest thing to this in the setting is a human, the Inquisitor Quixos, another example of a "mere human" that went far beyond most Marines can ever dream.

it seems like your on this"champion humans phase"

you honestly believe a human can match the primarchs, demigods/mini-emperors

sanguinius is too fast, he would cut tens of humans up before they can react

 da001 wrote:


@BrotherHaraldus: I am still waiting the first issue of Tentacles and Iron. By the way I took the liberty to add some reasonable, not over the top stuff to the background of your first daughter with Void__Dragon, Macarena. It is on page 13 and page 14 on this same thread. Perhaps you missed it. I started with her death, we can always get her back if needed. The only think I have yet to think about is how she entered a Sisters of Battle order in spite of her obvious, embarrassing, foul-smelling, sticky, pulsating, sexually attractive & active, highly evident mutations.

I tried, but the very moment I saved the document a squad of Grey Knights teleported in and deleted it while hosing my poor laptop with a big flamethrower, shouting 'BY FIRE BE PURGED' or something like that. They bullied me into not rewriting it...

And tabletop rules? Really? This does not look like a '3+ to wound' to me. Note how he even shoots straight through the breastplate...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:


@BrotherHaraldus: I am still waiting the first issue of Tentacles and Iron. By the way I took the liberty to add some reasonable, not over the top stuff to the background of your first daughter with Void__Dragon, Macarena. It is on page 13 and page 14 on this same thread. Perhaps you missed it. I started with her death, we can always get her back if needed. The only think I have yet to think about is how she entered a Sisters of Battle order in spite of her obvious, embarrassing, foul-smelling, sticky, pulsating, sexually attractive & active, highly evident mutations.

I tried, but the very moment I saved the document a squad of Grey Knights teleported in and deleted it while hosing my poor laptop with a big flamethrower, shouting 'BY FIRE BE PURGED' or something like that. They bullied me into not rewriting it...

And tabletop rules? Really? This does not look like a '3+ to wound' to me.

The CSM obviously rolled a natural 10 for damage. Bolters deal, what, 1D10 + 5 damage, with 4 armor penetration? That totally ignores the guards flak armor and deals critical wounds.
Now, let's see whose familiar with Dark Heresy in this thread

and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001

Quoting could help.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

He's not interested in an honest debate at this point; he keeps deliberately misinterpreting what people say in order to make ridiculously silly strawman arguments. Like he claimed that I said "a meltagun to the face would kill a primarch" that this meant that I said a common conscript would always beat a primarch one on one in hand to hand combat.

I'd say it's getting ridiculous but I'm not sure it ever wasn't.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001

Quoting could help.

"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/569113.page

LightKing wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001

Quoting could help.

"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/569113.page

A Sister isn't an Assassin...those are two completely different organisations, with different ways of doing things and equipment.

LightKing wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?

da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...

You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?

did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001

Quoting could help.

"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/569113.page

That is completely meaningless. The issue was of a sister.