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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 13:05:42
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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And the nerd war rages on...
Like the title says, what's up?
Do friendly Units block LoS? Classic example, the Rhino cover trick. Roll up a Rhino, turn it sideways and jump out behind it, then fire away. I'm told that this is "cheating", thanks to the TLoS rule.
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 13:08:30
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You are told correctly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 13:22:35
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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Friendly models from other units do block LOS. Friendly units from the same unit do not block LOS for each other.
A DT is a separate unit so the scenario in the OP is wrong/cheating.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/14 13:23:14
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 13:28:05
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Dakka Veteran
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If you want to pull that trick roll up, get out fire then move the rhino in front of the unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 14:19:55
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Boss GreenNutz wrote:If you want to pull that trick roll up, get out fire then flat out the rhino in front of the unit.
FTFY.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 14:27:57
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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The Hive Mind
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Can't flat out and disembark in the same turn.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 15:00:52
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Dakka Veteran
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Shows you how many rhinos I use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 20:02:02
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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This is correct,
However a different rhino could Flat out in front of the firing unit.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 21:43:44
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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The Hammer of Witches
A new day, a new time zone.
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darkcloak wrote:Roll up a Rhino, turn it sideways and jump out behind it, then fire away. I'm told that this is "cheating", thanks to the TLoS rule.
Wait, what? You mean they're standing behind the rhino where they can't see anything, and then shooting at something they can't see?
Yeah, that's been outright cheating (nope, no air quotes, if you're doing that it's cheating plain and simple) in every edition of the game.
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"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 22:09:34
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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What? Really? Oh well, it's not like anyone can really see anything half the time with TLoS anyways so... there's that...
See I was operating under the idea that the DT was part of the unit it was bought for, an assumption not only I but the rest of the local gamers agreed upon (I'm new, so are they pretty much). I just re-read all the applicable rules I could think of and yeah, you can only fire through squad members. But what about Squadrons of vehicles?
The assumption we made kind of makes sense though, I mean, just follow me here. The dudes in the transport know that they are going to take 15 minutes to unload (for some reason) and they won't be able to assault anyone, so they use their crappy tin box as cover for when they fire. We all agree that the models are not "static" and can move right? We assume so when we say that models in the same unit can draw LoS through squad members. And yet with like every single rule in the book it seems like we have to assume our models are really really stupid. Like the Grot and the ADL, really mofos that Grot can't jump? Damn...
They can move Johnson, but they're dumb as a sack of hammers!
It's not like it works anyways, they just shoot the Rhino dead, and then shoot your guys.
Not like it would be the first time something in 40k was illogical though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/14 22:10:55
Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 22:25:15
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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darkcloak wrote: The dudes in the transport know that they are going to take 15 minutes to unload (for some reason) and they won't be able to assault anyone, so they use their crappy tin box as cover for when they fire. We all agree that the models are not "static" and can move right? We assume so when we say that models in the same unit can draw LoS through squad members. And yet with like every single rule in the book it seems like we have to assume our models are really really stupid. Like the Grot and the ADL, really mofos that Grot can't jump? Damn...
They can move Johnson, but they're dumb as a sack of hammers!
It's not like it works anyways, they just shoot the Rhino dead, and then shoot your guys.
Eh?
I don't understand most of what I've quoted.
On the subject of Vehicle Squadrons, each vehicle in the Sqn can fire through the other vehicles, as it is assumed that they move strategically so that they can fire at maximum efficiency.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 22:47:45
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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darkcloak wrote: And yet with like every single rule in the book it seems like we have to assume our models are really really stupid. Like the Grot and the ADL, really mofos that Grot can't jump? Damn...
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Feel free to post a video of you firing accurately over an 8' wall.
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/14 22:51:47
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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darkcloak wrote:
See I was operating under the idea that the DT was part of the unit it was bought for, an assumption not only I but the rest of the local gamers agreed upon (I'm new, so are they pretty much).
"A unit can embark onto a vehicle by...The whole unit must be able to embark - if some models are out of range, the entire unit must stay outside." (78)
If the DT was part of the unit it was bought for, then the DT would have to embark upon itself with the rest of its squad...
I just re-read all the applicable rules I could think of and yeah, you can only fire through squad members. But what about Squadrons of vehicles?
Vehicle Squadron rules cover this (P. 77)
We all agree that the models are not "static" and can move right?
Absolutely not. The models are how they appear and will use TLoS from their eyes or along the barrel for vehicles, to aquire their targets.
If you try to house rule it that models can move then you get silliness like [You can not shoot at my scouts at all because they duck down behind the ADL after they shoot, so you can not see them...]
Not like it would be the first time something in 40k was illogical though.
Reality/Logic has nothing to do with the rules of 40K, they are not based on modern day real world logic.
They are an abstract system to simulate a battle in the far future, and not even on planet earth...
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 08:17:05
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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SlaveToDorkness wrote:darkcloak wrote: And yet with like every single rule in the book it seems like we have to assume our models are really really stupid. Like the Grot and the ADL, really mofos that Grot can't jump? Damn...
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Feel free to post a video of you firing accurately over an 8' wall.
Then how do the IG fire over the ADL if it's 8 feet tall? +1 internets for you buddy.
In response to deathreaper.
The assumption that the models are not static is implicit in every way. Perhaps certain shenanigans are prevented by some rules, like TLoS, but it's there. Turrets on tanks rotate 360 degrees but I've yet to see one built that does so. Same with Predator Sponsons. Heldrake flamer anyone? We have to assume it's because of his neck right, and his aerial acrobatics that he can fire in such an arc.
Also, the bit about the snipers ducking, well. That such action is called going to ground, and there's a rule for that too. We went over this with the Prone Sniper & The ADL thread too, about how poor prone sniper can't get off his belly to fire his gun, like, ever, thanks to TLoS. Seems like the real issue is more or less TLoS.
Regardless I'm not arguing the point. It was merely something that had come up in gameplay and we all agreed to treat the Rhino as part of the unit that it was bought for, even the guy who came to me complaining about my Rhinos and TLoS agreed with my assertion. Incidentally he hasn't run a Rhino in a list in almost a year. The only reason I bring it up here is for clarification.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/15 08:31:04
Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 09:37:21
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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darkcloak wrote:Then how do the IG fire over the ADL if it's 8 feet tall? +1 internets for you buddy.
He wasn't saying that the ADL is 8 feet tall. He was pointing out that Gretchin firing accurately over an ADL would be akin to you firing accurately over an 8 foot wall. Because Gretchin are shorter than humans, who can see over it generally.
Turrets on tanks rotate 360 degrees but I've yet to see one built that does so.
You've seen a lot of incorrectly built tanks, then, because just about all of GW's turreted vehicles rotate freely when built correctly. As do their tank sponsons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 14:16:31
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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Welcome to the Ignore list!
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 19:30:29
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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As for the turrets on tanks:
There is a little more to the rule requiring us to draw line of sight down the barrel. It goes on to state if you can not physically point the barrel at the target, as long as the barrel would logically be able to do so, then you draw line of sight from where the barrel would be. This is because they have recognized that some people might do things like glue their turrets in one position or otherwise build the model in such a way it prevents the intended rotation. They did not want people to be penalized for these sort of things so created a rule giving such players permission to ignore the restriction.
In order to treat non-vehicle models in the same way, imagining them in positions which they are not modeled, we will need a similar rule being presented.
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 22:28:53
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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All I'm sayin is that they're plastic toys and we use our imagination to make things fun.
So what? The models are static and never move? How do they move in the movement phase then?
How do you draw TLoS to a unit directly behind you? Hey how about that one huh? You gotta go from the models EYES! Stupid fething model can't turn it's head so have fun with that one guys.
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 23:11:07
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Kelne
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darkcloak wrote:All I'm sayin is that they're plastic toys and we use our imagination to make things fun.
So what? The models are static and never move? How do they move in the movement phase then?
How do you draw TLoS to a unit directly behind you? Hey how about that one huh? You gotta go from the models EYES! Stupid fething model can't turn it's head so have fun with that one guys.
Good thing the rules tell us about those situations, but not about the short grots/ ADL things ...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 23:50:01
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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hehe, your sig sums it all up...
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/15 23:50:08
Subject: Do Friendly Units Block LoS?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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darkcloak wrote:All I'm sayin is that they're plastic toys and we use our imagination to make things fun.
I can agree with that, but it has nothing to do with the rules of the game... So what? The models are static and never move?
Well unless your models are living things or animated plastic then yes they are static and never move. How do they move in the movement phase then?
You move them, just like the rules tell you to, as they can not do so on their own. How do you draw TLoS to a unit directly behind you? Hey how about that one huh? You gotta go from the models EYES! Stupid fething model can't turn it's head so have fun with that one guys.
Models can draw Line of Sight through models in their own unit. A model is a model in his own unit so he is free to draw Line of Sight through himself.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/15 23:50:56
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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