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Another "accepted" ruling at my FLGS that I am challenging. Scenario follows:

Wraithguard is charged by a lone Bloodletter and a Pink Horror Squad. Bloodletter charge occurs first and is successful. Could the Wraithguard Overwatch the Pink Horror Squad or does the Bloodletter's successful charge "lock them into combat"?

I can't seem to find anything to support a successful charge "locking" a unit into combat. Thoughts and/or citations?

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

I will need to research the book closely myself, the exact page number where this rule is found is refusing to come to mind, but I do know there is a method for determining of a unit is 'locked in combat' somewhere at the front of the book. I also can not remember if there was anything more complicated then checking if they are in base to base contact involved, such as a timing restraint that would require this to trigger before we have permission to even look to see if they are 'locked in combat.' I do not believe such a restraint exists, it was a simple one sentence rule that appeared to be a blanket 'how to figure out if units are locked in combat,' but I will need to review it for myself.

Ninja'ed - Thanks Abandon for the page number.

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Except it ignores that a unit charging would be locked as soon as the first model moves into Base Contact with the enemy and subsequent models would then not be able to move.

The second sentence to the quote: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

A charge move is not a Pile In move so the unit may only move the initial charger into combat if they are locked as soon as the assaulting unit has one model in base contact.

The alternative is that you are locked starting in the Fight Sub-Phase, as that is where the Locked rule exists, (They can continue to be locked after this point but not prior to this point) and you are free to Overwatch against any unit that declares an assault against you in any given phase, but of course, only once per assault phase.

Abandon wrote:"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Thanks for the replies. That settles it for me.

Farseer Pef wrote:

Abandon wrote:"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Thanks for the replies. That settles it for me.

So you think a unit is locked when it has one or more models in base contact with an enemy? The rules do in fact say this, but:

How does the rest of the unit complete its charge move, as we know "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Are you saying that a charge move is a pile in move? (I do not think you are) so why are you allowed to break this rule? Citation needed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Farseer Pef wrote:

Abandon wrote:"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Thanks for the replies. That settles it for me.

So you think a unit is locked when it has one or more models in base contact with an enemy? (The rules do in fact say this, but:

How does the rest of the unit complete its charge move, as we know "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Are you saying that a charge move is a pile in move? (I do not think you are) so why are you allowed to break this rule? Citation needed.

An interesting question but it is off topic. I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread though if you'd care to start one.

Why? It has been discussed multiple times with no resolution.

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Farseer Pef wrote:

Abandon wrote:"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Thanks for the replies. That settles it for me.

So you think a unit is locked when it has one or more models in base contact with an enemy? (The rules do in fact say this, but:

How does the rest of the unit complete its charge move, as we know "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Are you saying that a charge move is a pile in move? (I do not think you are) so why are you allowed to break this rule? Citation needed.

An interesting question but it is off topic. I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread though if you'd care to start one.

It really is not Off Topic, A unit can fire Overwatch at a unit that declares a charge against it. Unless it is locked in combat.

However a unit that is locked the instant an enemy model is in B2B causes issues with compleating the rest of the charge move and therefore can not be the correct interpretation.

If you are not locked until the fight Sub-Phase, where the rules exist that tell you how to determine locked status, then there are no real issues.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Farseer Pef wrote:

Abandon wrote:"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Thanks for the replies. That settles it for me.

So you think a unit is locked when it has one or more models in base contact with an enemy? (The rules do in fact say this, but:

How does the rest of the unit complete its charge move, as we know "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Are you saying that a charge move is a pile in move? (I do not think you are) so why are you allowed to break this rule? Citation needed.

An interesting question but it is off topic. I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread though if you'd care to start one.

It really is not Off Topic, A unit can fire Overwatch at a unit that declares a charge against it. Unless it is locked in combat.

However a unit that is locked the instant an enemy model is in B2B causes issues with compleating the rest of the charge move and therefore can not be the correct interpretation.

If you are not locked until the fight Sub-Phase, where the rules exist that tell you how to determine locked status, then there are no real issues.

Nothing in the rules says that you aren't locked in combat until the fight sub phase. The rule about being in base contact is to count as engaged may be under the fight sub-phase section but RAW applies when resolving charges but would instill the conflict that you do bring up.

Frankly as written, this is one of the rare times GW wrote rules that are broken in function (instead of just too vague to have a clear outcome)

HIWPI (and how it should be played IMO) is as I stated as before, especially since it makes assault tactically interesting instead of just rolling the dice and seeing if overwatch screws me over or not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

With this and the fact charges are resolved one at a time now in 6ed, that is why charging in with one unit prevents overwatching other units

Except it ignores that a unit charging would be locked as soon as the first model moves into Base Contact with the enemy and subsequent models would then not be able to move.

The second sentence to the quote: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

A charge move is not a Pile In move so the unit may only move the initial charger into combat if they are locked as soon as the assaulting unit has one model in base contact.

The alternative is that you are locked starting in the Fight Sub-Phase, as that is where the Locked rule exists, (They can continue to be locked after this point but not prior to this point) and you are free to Overwatch against any unit that declares an assault against you in any given phase, but of course, only once per assault phase.

In the time since the last thread, have you found permission to interrupt the charge move?
Anywhere? No? So you're still going with the Strawman argument if "IT BREAKZ CHARGEZ!" That's been shown to be incorrect?
That's cute.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Nothing in the rules says that you aren't locked in combat until the fight sub phase. The rule about being in base contact is to count as engaged may be under the fight sub-phase section but RAW applies when resolving charges but would instill the conflict that you do bring up.

Frankly as written, this is one of the rare times GW wrote rules that are broken in function (instead of just too vague to have a clear outcome)

HIWPI (and how it should be played IMO) is as I stated as before, especially since it makes assault tactically interesting instead of just rolling the dice and seeing if overwatch screws me over or not.

The Locked condition rules exist in the Fight Sub-Phase section of the rules, tying it to that section over any other primarily.

One interpretation makes the game break, one lets the game function without issue...

If the unit is not locked until the Fight Sub-Phase the game functions without issue.

If the unit is locked any time it has at least a single model in base contact with an enemy model, then the game breaks.

In light of the evidence I will side with the interpretation that does not break the game every time.

The rule is not limited to the fight sub-phase or it would be ineffective at preventing movement and shooting in their respective phases.

Essentially what you are saying is the charge move rules are broken because the rest of the models moves after the initial charger are not allowed because they are not pile-in moves.

The answer to the OP's question remains the same regardless unless you want to claim that units are only locked in combat during the fight sub-phase.

rigeld2 wrote:
In the time since the last thread, have you found permission to interrupt the charge move?
Anywhere? No? So you're still going with the Strawman argument if "IT BREAKZ CHARGEZ!" That's been shown to be incorrect?
That's cute.

Of course I have found permission to interrupt the charge move.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Right there. Once the Initial charger makes base contact does the unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies? If the answer is yes then they are locked in combat and "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

So the assault move must be a Pile in move if you continue moving the additional models in the unit as they do not have permission to break the only pile in moves rules, but an assault move is not a Pile in move...

 Abandon wrote:
The rule is not limited to the fight sub-phase or it would be ineffective at preventing movement and shooting in their respective phases.

I never said it was limited to the Fight Sub-Phase.

Essentially what you are saying is the charge move rules are broken because the rest of the models moves after the initial charger are not allowed because they are not pile-in moves..

Exactly and as such can not be the correct interpretation.

The answer to the OP's question remains the same regardless.

Not true, if the models do not start to be locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase (The only interpretation that does not break any rules) then the Answer is different.

unless you want top claim that units are only locked in combat during the fight sub-phase.

Again, I never said it was limited to the Fight Sub-Phase, but it is when the rules are introduced.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In the time since the last thread, have you found permission to interrupt the charge move?
Anywhere? No? So you're still going with the Strawman argument if "IT BREAKZ CHARGEZ!" That's been shown to be incorrect?
That's cute.

Of course I have found permission to interrupt the charge move.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Right there. Once the Initial charger makes base contact does the unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies? If the answer is yes then they are locked in combat and "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

So the assault move must be a Pile in move if you continue moving the additional models in the unit as they do not have permission to break the only pile in moves rules, but an assault move is not a Pile in move...

Do I have permission to begin the move? Indisputably yes.
Please cite during the charge move what rule requires me to checked for lock status. The quote above does not show that.
You've failed in every thread on this topic to actually support your assertion with a rule when asked.
Please don't bother posting again in this thread until you can follow the tenets of the sub forum and provide an actual rules quote to support your stance.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In the time since the last thread, have you found permission to interrupt the charge move?
Anywhere? No? So you're still going with the Strawman argument if "IT BREAKZ CHARGEZ!" That's been shown to be incorrect?
That's cute.

Of course I have found permission to interrupt the charge move.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Right there. Once the Initial charger makes base contact does the unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies? If the answer is yes then they are locked in combat and "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

So the assault move must be a Pile in move if you continue moving the additional models in the unit as they do not have permission to break the only pile in moves rules, but an assault move is not a Pile in move...

Do I have permission to begin the move? Indisputably yes.
Please cite during the charge move what rule requires me to checked for lock status. The quote above does not show that.

Yes it does because At any time a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy then are locked in combat. This is an ongoing condition and needs to be followed at all times.

You've failed in every thread on this topic to actually support your assertion with a rule when asked.
Please don't bother posting again in this thread until you can follow the tenets of the sub forum and provide an actual rules quote to support your stance.

I have, it is right there, Do not ignore it this time.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In the time since the last thread, have you found permission to interrupt the charge move?
Anywhere? No? So you're still going with the Strawman argument if "IT BREAKZ CHARGEZ!" That's been shown to be incorrect?
That's cute.

Of course I have found permission to interrupt the charge move.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

Right there. Once the Initial charger makes base contact does the unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies? If the answer is yes then they are locked in combat and "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight?

So the assault move must be a Pile in move if you continue moving the additional models in the unit as they do not have permission to break the only pile in moves rules, but an assault move is not a Pile in move...

Do I have permission to begin the move? Indisputably yes.
Please cite during the charge move what rule requires me to checked for lock status. The quote above does not show that.

Yes it does because At any time a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy then are locked in combat. This is an ongoing condition and needs to be followed at all times.

You've never proven that assertion - another failure that you've repeated over and over. I've shown, repeatedly, that locked status is checked when required - and there is no check in the middle of the assault move. Amazing how that works, right? Rules mattering and stuff?

You've failed in every thread on this topic to actually support your assertion with a rule when asked.
Please don't bother posting again in this thread until you can follow the tenets of the sub forum and provide an actual rules quote to support your stance.

I have, it is right there, Do not ignore it this time.

No, you didn't. Nothing in that quote you provided has says anything about stopping an assault move.
Reported for failing to follow tenets.

 DeathReaper wrote:
One interpretation makes the game break, one lets the game function without issue...

One interpretation breaks the game, the other doesn't follow the rules.

Neither interpretation work

Actually, that's incorrect. The rules work just fine as-is.
You are told when to check for locked status.

rigeld2 wrote:
You've never proven that assertion - another failure that you've repeated over and over. I've shown, repeatedly, that locked status is checked when required - and there is no check in the middle of the assault move.

This is of course incorrect as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight? Proves...

Does a Charging unit that makes contact with the initial charger fulfill this condition?

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you didn't. Nothing in that quote you provided has says anything about stopping an assault move.
Reported for failing to follow tenets.

Except I have quotes and followed the tenets.

1) If a unit has one or more models in base contact with enemies that unit is locked in combat. (Do we agree on Point#1?)

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

2) Whilst a unit is locked in combat, it can only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move. (Do we agree on point #2?)

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23)

Since we agree then I have proven your argument incorrect...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You've never proven that assertion - another failure that you've repeated over and over. I've shown, repeatedly, that locked status is checked when required - and there is no check in the middle of the assault move.

This is of course incorrect as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." BRB pg 23, -Who Can Fight? Proves...

Does a Charging unit that makes contact with the initial charger fulfill this condition?

That rule does not show a check in the middle of the assault move as you asserted it did. I'm sure you meant to quote a different rule. Mind doing so correctly this time?

1) If a unit has one or more models in base contact with enemies that unit is locked in combat. (Do we agree on Point#1?)

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

2) Whilst a unit is locked in combat, it can only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move. (Do we agree on point #2?)

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23)

Since we agree then I have proven your argument incorrect...

Again, you've failed to ever prove that you check for locked at any time other than when told. You keep saying so but have never proven it.
So no, we don't agree. Please do not put words in my mouth - you've not proven my argument incorrect.

Actually if you read the book it states that each charge is resolved fully with models either in base contact and therefore locked in combat, or not in base contact.

In fact pages 20 thru 22 of the LRB cover it pretty clearly.

You fire overwatch right after the charge is declared so in the OPs scenario the unit being charged can only be charged by one other unit at a time and thus if it wants to fire overwatch it must do so at the first charging unit or otherwise risk being locked into combat. However if you want to risk it, the first charger could fail his roll and then you'd be able to fire overwatch at any subsequent chargers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also... wow have I been messing up overwatch!

Glad I went and re-read that section of the rules now...

See, THAT is the true power of YMDC

"once overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and, if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit" BRB pg 20 -Charge Sub-Phase, third bullet.

The sequence in which you move your models does not reflect any passage of game time during that movement and is a single process. It should therefore be considered 'all at once'. The sequence is only to establish and confirm the validity of the charge move as well as to account for the limitations of our two handedness, not that the models moves are considered separate. It is one charge move of the whole unit much like a normal move is considered. Your claim is akin to stating units cannot move more than 2 inches at a time because they can't move out of coherency. In other words it's a bit absurd in addition to being incorrect.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat."

This is an ever-present rule that is not limited by its wording or its context. It does not say 'during the fight sub-phase...' or 'during this step...'. This rule is always in effect and always true. To view it any other way requires adding in words that simply are not there.

I only hoped to get my answer without much ado. However, a fire, once lit, seems not to die if you leave it alone. So I will risk fanning the flames.

BRB p11: "When you are moving a unit, its individual models can each move up to their maximum movement distance."
BRB p20-22: Paraphrased: A unit makes a charge, not a singular model of the unit. A charge moves a unit. Furthermore, a unit is disallowed from charging for various reasons, not a singular model of that unit. A good bolded portion, p21: "...models in a charging unit make their charge move following the same rules as in the movement phase..."

This settles any issue of interrupted charges in my mind. A rule's standing is not lessened just because it is not under the chapter or section you think it should be under.

No it's pretty clear. Grab the book. It doesn't need debate.

This is how games get screwed right up, people assume that things are happening when in fact this is only their interpretation of the rules.

You cannot declare 3 units to be charging all at once, then roll for all of them, then fire overwatch. It all takes place in a very specific sequence, you take each unit in it's own turn regardless of any "implied" passage of time. Each unit charging follows a strict action sequence and follows the chain until the very end, at which point another unit may then take it's turn to charge. It doesn't matter if the book says it theoretically all happens at once, it all happens on the table in a very specific way.

Read the book.

I think we're done here.