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 fuusa wrote:
No, the model must be within 2" of the syphon and have los to the target (not the syphon).

Why does being part of a shooting attack only limit where you measure from - in your opinon. You're (seemingly) randomly some restrictions for shooting but not all.

rigeld2 wrote:
Not at all. It's the exact same situation.

Disagree.
What you are trying to do, is use a third party's special rule, to justify measuring to a model, by measuring to its unit, in a different manner to which the model will measure to the tyranid.
This will shift the location (potentially) of the firing model, only from the outside perspective, it will not change the models firing position (which has to be at the fire point).

You declare a shooting attack.
To make the shooting attack you must measure for 3rd party interference (SitW, Relay).
The 3rd party interference can change how the shooting attack process is followed.

Yup, same situation.

rigeld2 wrote:
Since you're allowed to measure anything at any time, premeasuring or not is irrelevant. I can measure for movement during your shooting phase if I want to. So you're pretend scenario makes literally no sense.

So, not pre-measuring anything (and possibly everything) is non-sensical then?
Is it illegal, must it be done?

What?

If I do not pre-measure a charge move, am I at fault somehow?
After I roll, do I not have to measure in order to prove I am in range?

What? What do you think I said? Because those questions have nothing at all to do with what I actually said.

rigeld2 wrote:
Again, what's the relevancy? Who cares if it alters your shooting profile? It is not, itself, a shooting attack and therefore not restricted to firing points.

So, if after I start a shooting attack and my profile is then altered, the factor that alters it, is not part of the shooting attack?

Nope. Not at all. Moving with a Psycannon is not part of a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:
You agree that using the Relay is not a shooting attack, correct?

Using the relay is part of your shooting attack, it can only be used as part of a shooting attack, it alters the profile of your shooting attack as you fire. If you do not fire, the relay has no-effect.

Incorrect. It can only be used to modify a profile - that does not mean it is part of a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:
You agree that for everything but the units shooting I can measure to the transports hull and it's the same as measuring to the unit, correct?

I have demonstrated the the use of the relay, can only happen as part of a units shooting.
By declaring that the individual using the fire point is a model and that some shooting will involve measuring from a model (a beam perhaps) you are identifying where that model is, abstractly, within the transport.

Oh - so you're arguing for intent? Because there's no rule saying that that I'm aware of. Perhaps you could cite one for me?

Any measuring, involving that particular models shooting must come from the fire point it is using, if it is firing.

Citation required. You've made statements, I've shown permission to measure to the hull (which counteracts your statements). Prove it.

You can measure ranges to/from an embarked unit by measuring to/from the vehicles hull, except for its (that is, the units) shooting.
So, the only time we have permission to do this is for something other that the (embarked) units shooting.
The only time that the location of the syphon matters, is if a flamer armed model actually fires within 2" of it.
At that point, we can only measure to/from a fire point.

You have not supported your assertion that using the Relay is shooting. If it's not shooting it is not required to be measured from a fire point.

I play Adepta sororitas. I have many flamers.

RAW it's a yes.

HIWPI: i'd even say yes: Rhino's got a fuel line in right? Connect Flamer to ports inside vehicle, vehicle to pipe... Voila!

Surely when i have a Piano-played missile at S8 AP1 i have a rhino that's cross-fuel capable?

15 Burna Boyz behind a relay. Yum!

 grendel083 wrote:
15 Burna Boyz behind a relay. Yum!

Actually, on a related note, is there a model for the Promethium Relay? If so, how large is it and how many models could one feasibly have within 2"? (Or it simply an upgrade to another structure? So would any model within 2" of that structure benefit?)

If not (and assuming it has to be represented somehow) how large would be reasonable before one might call MFA (considering the Orky ramifications!).

DoW

The rest of the relay rule reads the same as the Aegis defence line.
The Data Sheet tells you how many sections you get.

rigeld2 wrote:
Why does being part of a shooting attack only limit where you measure from - in your opinon.

From as opposed to measuring to? It doesn't, its simply a range. Or do you dispute that?

rigeld2 wrote:

To make the shooting attack you must measure for 3rd party interference (SitW, Relay).
The 3rd party interference can change how the shooting attack process is followed.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay measurement is never part of the shooting attack. I know because the steps for a shooting attack are spelled out and the Relay doesn't change any of them.

These two contradict.

In one, you have the third party changing the process, in the other, the same third party doesn't change it.

rigeld2 wrote:
It can only be used to modify a profile - that does not mean it is part of a shooting attack.

When does it modify the profile?
Is it before the shooting attack begins, or after?

If I have a choice, as to how to fire a weapon, such as a missile launcher, krak or frag, is the choice of which round to fire, made as part of a shooting attack or not?
If I choose to fire normally, or use the torrent sr, isn't that done as part of a shooting attack, or would that be done before?

Now, in "reality" it may well be in my mind exactly what I intend to do with each different weapon type available within a unit well before I actually get around to
shooting with it. But, do I not have to nominate a unit to fire, before I declare which models are doing what, which profiles they will use, if they have options?
Is this not part of a shooting attack?
Is this not within the prescribed sequence of resolving a shooting attack?

So, does the shooting attack begin with nominating a unit to shoot or not?

Any measuring, involving that particular models shooting must come from the fire point it is using, if it is firing.

rigeld2 wrote:
Citation required. You've made statements, I've shown permission to measure to the hull (which counteracts your statements). Prove it.

Is the distance between the firer and the syphon a range or not?

 fuusa wrote:

Any measuring, involving that particular models shooting must come from the fire point it is using, if it is firing.

rigeld2 wrote:
Citation required. You've made statements, I've shown permission to measure to the hull (which counteracts your statements). Prove it.

Is the distance between the firer and the syphon a range or not?

It's a range, sure.

The only exception to measuring to the hull is for shooting attacks. Is measuring the range for the Relay a shooting attack?
Regardless of your assumptions and theoretical questions, even if it is part of a shooting attack it is not - in itself - a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:
The only exception to measuring to the hull is for shooting attacks. Is measuring the range for the Relay a shooting attack?
Regardless of your assumptions and theoretical questions, even if it is part of a shooting attack it is not - in itself - a shooting attack.

I have never said measuring to the relay is a shooting attack.
What I have said is that it is part of a shooting attack and because of that, it uses the passenger shooting rules to resolve.

The rules tell us, that when firing, the particular model selected to fire, checks its los and ranges from the fire point itself.
Measuring from the firer (whose location is "abstractly set", ie that point, is fixed), is checking a range, as you say ...

rigeld2 wrote:
It's a range, sure.

So, the rules state that ranges are measured from the fire point, from the firing models perspective as it fires, which is when it uses its weapon profile, as altered by the relay.
When firing from a firepoint, the model may only measure ranges from the firepoint.

If we use a hypothetical ...
Lets say this shooting attack is a psychic power, a flamer that gets a range boost from the syphon.
This fires out of a firepoint, so must measure from that.
This would leave it out of range.
With the torrent, it is in range.

The target tyranid, has sitw, the fire point is 13" away, but part of the vehicle is within 12".

From the tyranid perspective, the psyker is in range, as the rules it uses to measure are different to those used by the firer.

This, in effect, does not alter the "location" of the firer and how it fires.

Ranges for shooting attacks are measured from the firing point. Your assertion is that all ranges for the duration of a shooting attack are measure from the firing point - something you haven't actually cited a rule showing yet.

 grendel083 wrote:
The rest of the relay rule reads the same as the Aegis defence line.
The Data Sheet tells you how many sections you get.

My apologies. I am currently overseas and Dakka is one of the few sites that doesn't violate whatever strange firewall agreements in place at this base.

I'll be sure to check the relevant rules when I get back to the US.

DoW

rigeld2 wrote:
Ranges for shooting attacks are measured from the firing point. Your assertion is that all ranges for the duration of a shooting attack are measure from the firing point - something you haven't actually cited a rule showing yet.

If its true that you think that's my view, then you didn't read my previous post at all or read it incorrectly.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Ranges for shooting attacks are measured from the firing point. Your assertion is that all ranges for the duration of a shooting attack are measure from the firing point - something you haven't actually cited a rule showing yet.

If its true that you think that's my view, then you didn't read my previous post at all or read it incorrectly.

Sorry - when you say

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The only exception to measuring to the hull is for shooting attacks. Is measuring the range for the Relay a shooting attack?
Regardless of your assumptions and theoretical questions, even if it is part of a shooting attack it is not - in itself - a shooting attack.

I have never said measuring to the relay is a shooting attack.
What I have said is that it is part of a shooting attack and because of that, it uses the passenger shooting rules to resolve.

I think, you know, that's what your view is.
Sure, it's slightly different from what I said but not in any meaningful way. And again, you've cited no rules to support that stance.

No, that's not correct.

rigeld2 wrote:
Ranges for shooting attacks are measured from the firing point. Your assertion is that all ranges for the duration of a shooting attack are measure from the firing point - something you haven't actually cited a rule showing yet.

In my post, I gave an example of a model shooting from a fire point, that was out of range of its sitw nid target.
It cast a psychic power that had its range boosted by the relay, so the power became in range due to the profile changing because it fired in close proximity to the relay.

In that example, the fire point was more than 12" but the vehicle was in 12", thus giving the nid permission to benefit from sitw.
This will effect the casting of the psychic shooting attack.
= 2 different ways to measure ranges concerning the same shooting attack, from different perspectives during the duration of the attack.

That is fundamentally different to what you said.

My point, then, is, the relay becomes part of the models shooting attack (its effect occurs during its firing and directly effects that firing).
Ranges (note a plural, when the basic assumption in the rules, is from the perspective of one firing model) are measured from the fire point itself.

= when a model fires from a fire point, ranges are measured from that fire point as that is where the model is considered to be, for the purposes of its firing.

Ranges to embarked units are measured to the hull except for its shooting.

Relay is not a shooting attack, but measuring to it (which is the proof of ability to use it) is part of its shooting and therefore is limited to/from the fire point, which is the literal RAW,

So as long as the hatch of the Rhino is 2" of the pipe (fire point range), the embarked flamer can fire?
I'll remember that with HF retributors in a repressor

 fuusa wrote:
My point, then, is, the relay becomes part of the models shooting attack (its effect occurs during its firing and directly effects that firing).
Ranges (note a plural, when the basic assumption in the rules, is from the perspective of one firing model) are measured from the fire point itself.

The Relay is never part of the shooting attack - you're not even treating it as part of the shooting attack. Why are you not also requiring LoS? Shooting attacks require that.
You've invented the fact that it's part of the shooting attack and are using that to make your argument.

Ranges to embarked units are measured to the hull except for its shooting.

Relay is not a shooting attack, but measuring to it (which is the proof of ability to use it) is part of its shooting and therefore is limited to/from the fire point, which is the literal RAW,

The Relay is not part of its shooting. You keep saying that but haven't proven it.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay is never part of the shooting attack - you're not even treating it as part of the shooting attack. Why are you not also requiring LoS? Shooting attacks require that.
You've invented the fact that it's part of the shooting attack and are using that to make your argument.

Los is needed to a target, not a piece of wargear like this.

Ok, then, answer these, please...

1. Is a weapon profile, when used by a firing model, part of its shooting attack, or not?
2. Is measuring range part of its shooting attack, or not?
3. Can the shooting sequence you have to follow, be described as "its shooting?"
Yes/no will suffice.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay is not part of its shooting. You keep saying that but haven't proven it.

If you are right, then the weapon profile used by the firer, is not part of "its shooting."

You prove that the weapon profile actually used by a model to shoot, isn't part of its shooting attack and is not part of its shooting.
You could do that by explaining, step by step, how a boltguns fires, in game terms, without using its profile (as that's not part of "its shooting").

Wow - the Relay is a weapon profile?
I wasn't aware. It doesn't say that in my copy of the book - could you quote it from yours so I can get my money back?

Or are you making another assumption that something that alters a profile is Inherently the profile?

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay is never part of the shooting attack - you're not even treating it as part of the shooting attack. Why are you not also requiring LoS? Shooting attacks require that.
You've invented the fact that it's part of the shooting attack and are using that to make your argument.

Los is needed to a target, not a piece of wargear like this.

Ok, then, answer these, please...

1. Is a weapon profile, when used by a firing model, part of its shooting attack, or not?
2. Is measuring range part of its shooting attack, or not?
3. Can the shooting sequence you have to follow, be described as "its shooting?"
Yes/no will suffice.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay is not part of its shooting. You keep saying that but haven't proven it.

If you are right, then the weapon profile used by the firer, is not part of "its shooting."

You prove that the weapon profile actually used by a model to shoot, isn't part of its shooting attack and is not part of its shooting.
You could do that by explaining, step by step, how a boltguns fires, in game terms, without using its profile (as that's not part of "its shooting").

The pipes don't create a new profile when shooting, they create it the moment you move within range(you just cannot use the new profile after moving without relentless)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay is never part of the shooting attack - you're not even treating it as part of the shooting attack. Why are you not also requiring LoS? Shooting attacks require that.
You've invented the fact that it's part of the shooting attack and are using that to make your argument.

Los is needed to a target, not a piece of wargear like this.

Ok, then, answer these, please...

1. Is a weapon profile, when used by a firing model, part of its shooting attack, or not?
2. Is measuring range part of its shooting attack, or not?
3. Can the shooting sequence you have to follow, be described as "its shooting?"
Yes/no will suffice.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay is not part of its shooting. You keep saying that but haven't proven it.

If you are right, then the weapon profile used by the firer, is not part of "its shooting."

You prove that the weapon profile actually used by a model to shoot, isn't part of its shooting attack and is not part of its shooting.
You could do that by explaining, step by step, how a boltguns fires, in game terms, without using its profile (as that's not part of "its shooting").

The pipes don't create a new profile when shooting, they create it the moment you move within range(you just cannot use the new profile after moving without relentless)

The rule requires the weapon to be fired to trigger the Relay effect, and it is a permissive rule allowing either Assault or Heavy.

rigeld2 wrote:
Wow - the Relay is a weapon profile?
I wasn't aware. It doesn't say that in my copy of the book - could you quote it from yours so I can get my money back?

Or are you making another assumption that something that alters a profile is Inherently the profile?

The answers are no, no and no.
See that? I had the common courtesy of actually answering your questions, but my questions have no answers as of yet.

You might do better if you actually attempt to understand what I actually said, rather than immediately turn to form with the childish stuff and attempt to misrepresent what I have said.
So, consider those questions asked again.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

The pipes don't create a new profile when shooting, they create it the moment you move within range(you just cannot use the new profile after moving without relentless)

Untrue, the profile is altered or modified when the unit shoots and decides to use the relay. It is optional.

Fragile wrote:

The rule requires the weapon to be fired to trigger the Relay effect, and it is a permissive rule allowing either Assault or Heavy.

Exactly, you have the choice to use it or not.
If you do use it, you fundamentally change the units shooting, but according to rigeld, that would not be part of "its shooting."

The weapon type, range, etc, would not be part of the units shooting.

 fuusa wrote:

If you do use it, you fundamentally change the units shooting, but according to rigeld, that would not be part of "its shooting."

The weapon type, range, etc, would not be part of the units shooting.

Pot, kettle.

The thing that changes them is not part of the units shooting. You're trying to intertwined them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fuusa wrote:
Los is needed to a target, not a piece of wargear like this.

It's not wargear.

1. Is a weapon profile, when used by a firing model, part of its shooting attack, or not?
2. Is measuring range part of its shooting attack, or not?
3. Can the shooting sequence you have to follow, be described as "its shooting?"
Yes/no will suffice.

Objection, not a yes or no question. A profile defines how a shooting attack is made.
Yes
Yes

The weapon profile exists independently of the unit's state. The unit could be Gone to Ground, and therefore unable to fire template weapons, and still would have the alternate weapon profile available from the Promethium Relay.

This proves to me that the weapon's profile exists independently of whether or not the model is making a shooting attack.

Exactly.

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

If you do use it, you fundamentally change the units shooting, but according to rigeld, that would not be part of "its shooting."

The weapon type, range, etc, would not be part of the units shooting.

Pot, kettle.

Assuming you are accusing me of being childish, like you, what I said is a statement of your view exactly.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not wargear.

Equipment then.

rigeld2 wrote:

1. Is a weapon profile, when used by a firing model, part of its shooting attack, or not?
2. Is measuring range part of its shooting attack, or not?
3. Can the shooting sequence you have to follow, be described as "its shooting?"
Yes/no will suffice.

Objection, not a yes or no question. A profile defines how a shooting attack is made.
Yes
Yes

1. The weapon profile must be part of the shooting attack, your answer tries to avoid this, but in fact proves it.
You object (and fail to answer), because without a sufficient profile, the shooting attack cannot be resolved.
See your argument re witch fire being an assault weapon with no number of shots.
2. Agree, how do you know the weapons range = the profile, in this case (torrent) the modified profile.
3. Agree, once you nominate a unit to fire, all parts of the sequence are the units shooting.

Question time again.
4. Without a profile, the units firing cannot be completed, therefore, a weapon profile, is a 100% essential part of its shooting attack.
5. It must be provable that you are within 2" of the relay, in order to use it for firing.
6. A modified range is required to measure to the target (torrent flamer), this comes from the modified profile granted by the relay, being able to measure a stipulated range is part of a shooting attack.
7. All the above are part of a units shooting, so measuring to/from the hull, cannot be used, as the processes we are following are part of the units shooting, explicitly not allowed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The weapon profile exists independently of the unit's state. The unit could be Gone to Ground, and therefore unable to fire template weapons, and still would have the alternate weapon profile available from the Promethium Relay.

Which profile, the original, or the modified one?

Assuming you have to be able to fire, to have a weapon profile available, the flamer model has to fire to benefit from the relay.
What weapon profiles can be available, to models unable to fire certain weapons?

Fuel Siphon: Any flamer weapon (as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook) fired by a non-vehicle model within 2" of a Promethium Relay Pipe in the Shooting phase can change its weapon type from Assault to Heavy, or from Pistol to Heavy. If it does so, the weapon gains the Torrent special rule until the end of that phase.

Tac marine, with bolt pistol and flamer, gone to ground.
Which weapon profiles can he actually use?

rigeld2 wrote:
Exactly.

Not exactly, rather debunked.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not wargear.

Equipment then..

The Relay would be a special rule as it is not equipment nor wargear.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

If you do use it, you fundamentally change the units shooting, but according to rigeld, that would not be part of "its shooting."

The weapon type, range, etc, would not be part of the units shooting.

Pot, kettle.

Assuming you are accusing me of being childish, like you, what I said is a statement of your view exactly.

No, I wasn't accusing you of being childish. I was saying you completely misstated my argument. In other words, I didn't say that - don't put words in my mouth.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not wargear.

Equipment then.

Not even that. Not that it's relevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

1. Is a weapon profile, when used by a firing model, part of its shooting attack, or not?
2. Is measuring range part of its shooting attack, or not?
3. Can the shooting sequence you have to follow, be described as "its shooting?"
Yes/no will suffice.

Objection, not a yes or no question. A profile defines how a shooting attack is made.
Yes
Yes

1. The weapon profile must be part of the shooting attack, your answer tries to avoid this, but in fact proves it.
You object (and fail to answer), because without a sufficient profile, the shooting attack cannot be resolved.
See your argument re witch fire being an assault weapon with no number of shots.
2. Agree, how do you know the weapons range = the profile, in this case (torrent) the modified profile.
3. Agree, once you nominate a unit to fire, all parts of the sequence are the units shooting.

1. The fact that you require a profile does not make it "part of the shooting attack".

Question time again.
4. Without a profile, the units firing cannot be completed, therefore, a weapon profile, is a 100% essential part of its shooting attack.
5. It must be provable that you are within 2" of the relay, in order to use it for firing.
6. A modified range is required to measure to the target (torrent flamer), this comes from the modified profile granted by the relay, being able to measure a stipulated range is part of a shooting attack.
7. All the above are part of a units shooting, so measuring to/from the hull, cannot be used, as the processes we are following are part of the units shooting, explicitly not allowed.

4. Not a question - nothing to answer. It is an incorrect statement though.
5. Agreed.
6. Measuring a range for a weapon is part of a shooting attack - sure.
7. Nope. To even close.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The weapon profile exists independently of the unit's state. The unit could be Gone to Ground, and therefore unable to fire template weapons, and still would have the alternate weapon profile available from the Promethium Relay.

Which profile, the original, or the modified one?

Either.

Assuming you have to be able to fire, to have a weapon profile available, the flamer model has to fire to benefit from the relay.
What weapon profiles can be available, to models unable to fire certain weapons?

Please support that assumption.

Tac marine, with bolt pistol and flamer, gone to ground.
Which weapon profiles can he actually use?

The bolt pistol. That doesn't change the fact that the Flamer profile exists - in fact it must. You have to reference it to know you cannot fire it because it's a template and you cannot snap shot a template. Unless you have a way to do that without referencing the profile.

Edited]