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Aetaos'rau'keres is the Daemon Lord of Tzeentch. Coming in at 999 points, you'd expect there to be some serious potential there, but this guy is beyond crazy. He has, by default, a 3++, and it a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he gets to re-roll 1s already. Combine him with the Grimoire and that's a 2++ rerollable for your Flying Gargantuan Creature. He has a rule called Dark Jealousy that seems to be intended to prevent combos like this, but it only has a range of 18" whereas the Grimoire has a range of 24", so with good positioning it shouldn't trouble you. He's strength and toughness 8, has nine wounds, five attacks and is WS and intiative 9. Thus, despite being a Daemon of Tzeentch, he's a close combat master. He has riftbringer by default (which combos nicely with stomp) and can additionally create a new unit of D6+3 Horrors every turn and deep strike them right on top of an obective - that means "just kill the scoring units" doesn't really work, as he can effortlessly make more. He also has souleater by default, so he heals every time he inevitably wins combat. Additionally, because he is a flying gargantuan creature, he is almost invulnerable to strength D - only the A-X-10 and Pylon can realistically hit him with it. He is a mastery level 4 psyker who generates two powers from the DIscipline of Change and two more from any rulebook discipline - yes, that does mean he can potentially add Iron Arm into the mix, because T8 just isn't good enough. His staff requires him to remain stationary and take a LD test, so it's not feasibly usable if there are still SD weapons on the table, but it's an apocalyptic barrage 6+D3 wepon with Haywire, so you're usually doing 6-8 hull points per turn or more with just his shooting, plus any psychic powers, plus wind of chaos.

What we essentially have is an invincible (perhaps not technically, but a 2++ rerollable with those stats will absolutely never die short of extreme luck of being force to eat SD) 1000 point close combat monster that constantly creates new scoring units, can avoid assault easily by flying everywhere, still requires skyfire to hit reliable and can potentially be toughness 10, with 9 base wounds. Additionally, his shooting will kill a smaller super-heavy in a single turn, and he can reflect psychic powers back at their users if he successfully DTWs them. I think this might just be the most broken combination in the game - it's not reliable below 1750 because you want to take Fateweaver, but at 1750 your opponent is praying they brought a Warhound and can support it adequately to ground you. You can probably assault it turn 2 and/or reserve the Daemon if you're worried about an alphastrike, so even if you do get grounded you might not be totally screwed. If they're bringing a Warhound they likely don't have much conventional shooting, so you can use Fateweaver's reroll on a grounding text and let the 3++ deal with anything that manages to hit you.

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Aetaos'rau'keres is the Daemon Lord of Tzeentch. Coming in at 999 points, you'd expect there to be some serious potential there, but this guy is beyond crazy. He has, by default, a 3++, and it a Daemon of Tzeentch, so he gets to re-roll 1s already. Combine him with the Grimoire and that's a 2++ rerollable for your Flying Gargantuan Creature. He has a rule called Dark Jealousy that seems to be intended to prevent combos like this, but it only has a range of 18" whereas the Grimoire has a range of 24", so with good positioning it shouldn't trouble you. He's strength and toughness 8, has nine wounds, five attacks and is WS and intiative 9. Thus, despite being a Daemon of Tzeentch, he's a close combat master. He has riftbringer by default (which combos nicely with stomp) and can additionally create a new unit of D6+3 Horrors every turn and deep strike them right on top of an obective - that means "just kill the scoring units" doesn't really work, as he can effortlessly make more. He also has souleater by default, so he heals every time he inevitably wins combat. Additionally, because he is a flying gargantuan creature, he is almost invulnerable to strength D - only the A-X-10 and Pylon can realistically hit him with it. He is a mastery level 4 psyker who generates two powers from the DIscipline of Change and two more from any rulebook discipline - yes, that does mean he can potentially add Iron Arm into the mix, because T8 just isn't good enough. His staff requires him to remain stationary and take a LD test, so it's not feasibly usable if there are still SD weapons on the table, but it's an apocalyptic barrage 6+D3 wepon with Haywire, so you're usually doing 6-8 hull points per turn or more with just his shooting, plus any psychic powers, plus wind of chaos.

What we essentially have is an invincible (perhaps not technically, but a 2++ rerollable with those stats will absolutely never die short of extreme luck of being force to eat SD) 1000 point close combat monster that constantly creates new scoring units, can avoid assault easily by flying everywhere, still requires skyfire to hit reliable and can potentially be toughness 10, with 9 base wounds. Additionally, his shooting will kill a smaller super-heavy in a single turn, and he can reflect psychic powers back at their users if he successfully DTWs them. I think this might just be the most broken combination in the game - it's not reliable below 1750 because you want to take Fateweaver, but at 1750 your opponent is praying they brought a Warhound and can support it adequately to ground you. You can probably assault it turn 2 and/or reserve the Daemon if you're worried about an alphastrike, so even if you do get grounded you might not be totally screwed. If they're bringing a Warhound they likely don't have much conventional shooting, so you can use Fateweaver's reroll on a grounding text and let the 3++ deal with anything that manages to hit you.

I think he has feel no pain too, because all flying gargantuan creatures have fear, fearless, feel no pain, hammer of wrath, move through cover, relentless, smash, strikedown and vector strike.

lol

I hate to just post a one-word reply, but I mean, is there any other way to reply to that?

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
lol

I hate to just post a one-word reply, but I mean, is there any other way to reply to that?

Well, he can be killed, but the only reliable way is grounding him and then blowing him up with strength D. Of course if super-heavy flyers and gargantuans became commonplace then I'm sure Necrons (being a very good and popular army) will serve as quite a deterrent, and the Tau flyer isn't that bad either since it can also fire in that submunition mode against normal units. I'm sure you can design multiple 1.85K or 2K pts armies that can do it, but it only means it's going to be a game since like you said you have options too. If the opponent doesn't have strength D his only chance is arranging somekind of a legendary close combat between the Tz Monster and some 1000+ point mega-deathstar close combat unit/monster/combination of his own. In short, people who play in tournaments where all the rulesets are in play better come prepared

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
lol

I hate to just post a one-word reply, but I mean, is there any other way to reply to that?

If you're taking him, your opponent is taking a superheavy. And then, they will ground the Daemon and give him the D. And then that Eldar Titan will beat the living tar out of this guy through shooting.

Of course, he's an autowin if your opponent doesn't have D-weapons, but HOPEFULLY you wouldn't bring him without notifying an opponent in advance. If your local store happens to have a FW-Escalation friendly RTT, then go for it. Kill everyone.

If your opponents prepared though, they can kill him. They just need D-weapons and enough guns to ground him once. Sadly, FGC are grounded just as easily as D-Princes.

 jifel wrote:

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
lol

I hate to just post a one-word reply, but I mean, is there any other way to reply to that?

If you're taking him, your opponent is taking a superheavy. And then, they will ground the Daemon and give him the D. And then that Eldar Titan will beat the living tar out of this guy through shooting.

Of course, he's an autowin if your opponent doesn't have D-weapons, but HOPEFULLY you wouldn't bring him without notifying an opponent in advance. If your local store happens to have a FW-Escalation friendly RTT, then go for it. Kill everyone.

If your opponents prepared though, they can kill him. They just need D-weapons and enough guns to ground him once. Sadly, FGC are grounded just as easily as D-Princes.

The Pylon is a huge problem too, seeing as it has skyfire and interceptor meaning if you start in reserve you're dead and if you start on the table the Pylon can just deep strike and blow you up when it enters play. For just 420 points.

The funny thing about all these mega escalation super units is that the ease with which they blow up eachother is quite reminiscient of real war. Gunships and tanks are deadly and seemingly invincible against lesser vehicles and infantry, but the right gun for the job will just blow them skyhigh in one shot.

As said, ground it and nuke the gak out of it. The Eldar Revenant Titan still reigns supreme.

LoW: Eldar Revenant Titan
HQ: Haemonculus with Venom Blade & Liquifier
EL: 3 Kabalite Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon

HQ: Farseer on Jetbike with Singing Spear and Mantle of the Laughing God
TRP: 3 Windrider Jetbikes

Total: 1850 pts

 Mandor wrote:
As said, ground it and nuke the gak out of it. The Eldar Revenant Titan still reigns supreme.

LoW: Eldar Revenant Titan
HQ: Haemonculus with Venom Blade & Liquifier
EL: 3 Kabalite Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
TRP: 5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon

HQ: Farseer on Jetbike with Singing Spear and Mantle of the Laughing God
TRP: 3 Windrider Jetbikes

Total: 1850 pts

That's a very nice list, but I'm not sure what you're basing your statement that the Revenant 'reigns supreme' on. As an Eldar fan I love that model to death -- I think it's by far the coolest model FW has ever made, but let's be real here: It will always lose to any Eldar list with a super-heavy flyer like the Vampire Hunter or a Tau army with the AX-10, and it will always lose to Necrons with the Pylon and a bunch of Stormteks, and against armies with Warhounds or Revenants and other stuff like that its still just a question who shoots first making your army far from a safe bet.

The Pylon isn't that bad. It won't kill you the first turn it fires unless they get lucky and the staff will klll it every time unless you fail the leadershio (on LD10, so unlikely). You can also potentially use terrain to block LOS if it's already on the the board, although against a Pylon I would deploy every time. You really only have to worry about being grounded in plain sight of something with multiple SD shots or the Pylon. The Tigershark won't kill you and you can exploit the fact it's a flier to deny firing opportunities or just vector strike it. Similarly a Shadowsword doesn't have the firepower to take you out in a single turn, and you will absolutely maul it in assault if you decide not to just kill it with the staff.

 Therion wrote:
That's a very nice list, but I'm not sure what you're basing your statement that the Revenant 'reigns supreme' on. As an Eldar fan I love that model to death -- I think it's by far the coolest model FW has ever made, but let's be real here: It will always lose to any Eldar list with a super-heavy flyer like the Vampire Hunter or a Tau army with the AX-10, and it will always lose to Necrons with the Pylon and a bunch of Stormteks, and against armies with Warhounds or Revenants and other stuff like that its still just a question who shoots first making your army far from a safe bet.

I agree with some of the above. The best counter to a Revenant Titan is another Revenant Titan. And a bunch of Stormteks supported by a Pylon might get it down as well, if they get to go first. However, those flyers and the other Titans are not much of a guaranteed loss. With reserve rolls, the ease of evading those flyers after the initial turn and the lack of Eldar Titan Holo-fields on the other Titans, I think the Revenant outclasses all of them.

 Mandor wrote:

 Therion wrote:
That's a very nice list, but I'm not sure what you're basing your statement that the Revenant 'reigns supreme' on. As an Eldar fan I love that model to death -- I think it's by far the coolest model FW has ever made, but let's be real here: It will always lose to any Eldar list with a super-heavy flyer like the Vampire Hunter or a Tau army with the AX-10, and it will always lose to Necrons with the Pylon and a bunch of Stormteks, and against armies with Warhounds or Revenants and other stuff like that its still just a question who shoots first making your army far from a safe bet.

I agree with some of the above. The best counter to a Revenant Titan is another Revenant Titan. And a bunch of Stormteks supported by a Pylon might get it down as well, if they get to go first. However, those flyers and the other Titans are not much of a guaranteed loss. With reserve rolls, the ease of evading those flyers after the initial turn and the lack of Eldar Titan Holo-fields on the other Titans, I think the Revenant outclasses all of them.

You can't evade them since they can hover if they wish. If you're down on hull points after getting peppered and hit by Pulsars and maneouvring to get into a safe spot, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what a Vampire Hunter would do. It would hover, get an invulnerable save from a Farseer, finish the Revenant, and then hang around with its 12 hull points, holo-fields and inv saves against all the conventional shooting, if you even have any. You'll probably always destroy everything else except the Vampire, but you'll lose everything in the end yourself including the Titan, and if the Vampire is the transport variant he'll deploy guys on the objective in the final two turns of the game.

And frankly I don't see why the Necrons would need to go first. You're not going to reserve your Revenant, but they can reserve the Pylon and a couple of Scythes full of haywire madness, and there's nothing you can do to stop them from getting their shots.

 Therion wrote:
You can't evade them since they can hover if they wish. If you're down on hull points after getting peppered and hit by Pulsars and maneouvring to get into a safe spot, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what a Vampire Hunter would do. It would hover, get an invulnerable save from a Farseer, finish the Revenant, and then hang around with its 12 hull points, holo-fields and inv saves against all the conventional shooting, if you even have any. You'll probably always destroy everything else except the Vampire, but you'll lose everything in the end yourself including the Titan, and if the Vampire is the transport variant he'll deploy guys on the objective in the final two turns of the game.

Agreed. But the Vampire Hunter only arrives from turn two or later. It only has the single pulsar, so it will only cause a single D hit per turn on average on the Revenant. If it hovers, it loses the benefits of its flyer status and can now be targeted by the Revenant as well (though I wouldn't because as you said, it's pointless to try to get its 12 HP down with those holo-fields). But it still takes the Vampire Hunter two or three turns to destroy the Revenant. And then it only has a limited number of turns left to destroy the rest of your army. It's certainly not impossible, but it's definitely not a direct loss.

I'd say that for his points (a whopping 1k!) this guy just isn't gonna do enough in most games. Sure, he's more or less invincible besides being grounded and given the "D," but no one in the right might is gonna play your game and actually attack the freaking thing in the first place. His psychic potential is roughly the same as Fateweaver, even being restricted by taking two codex powers. I'd go as far as to say he can be easily beaten by an army without D weapons. Sure, you can go jump into melee, but he'll actually get his ass kicked by some of the more popular units right now, like the Seer Council (witchblades still wound on a 2+). His biggest boon, in my opinion is his deep striking Horrors.

 Therion wrote:
And frankly I don't see why the Necrons would need to go first. You're not going to reserve your Revenant, but they can reserve the Pylon and a couple of Scythes full of haywire madness, and there's nothing you can do to stop them from getting their shots.

But you underestimate the resilience of the Revenant Titan and the timing involved. A full Stormtek court (and let's be honest, you'd only take one) only does 6 hull points of damage in a single turn on the Revenant. And that's only if you aren't able to get a save on the Titan (Forewarning, Skyshield, etc). Then, best case scenario, the Stormtek(s) will be out of range next turn. More likely, they'll be quite dead. The Pylon, if it goes first, on average only inflicts a single strength D hit on the Titan. If it doesn't go first, it's dead. If you don't deploy it, but deep strike it in, you could have timing issues again with the Stormtek flyer(s). So again, while it's quite possible the Titan will go down, it's not at all a guarantee.

am I recalling the holofield rule incorrectly?

as far as I knew the holofield is negating 'hits' on a 3+/4+

so any hits made against it are discounted on that roll, before damage can be rolled for, this includes D weapons.

that was one of the largest pains in the backside at the last apoc game at my LFG and that was the new book too

On a 4+ you hit the target, otherwise you hit the holo-field and miss. This is assuming it moved. Otherwise you hit the target on a 3+. So if you want to think the other way around, it 'negates' hits on a 4+/5+, not 3+/4+.

It works on strength D, which in my opinion makes the Vampire so good. When it zooms it can't be targeted by most of the strength D weapons in the game, and even when it hovers or an enemy has a non-template strength D weapon it has a massive amount of hull points that are protected by titan holo-fields.

The Revenant sure has a lot of firepower and survivability for the price, but the Vampire comes 170 points cheaper, doesn't bring quite as much dakka, but is a lot harder to kill. In these types of battles being able to win the Lord of War duel is quite essential.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
am I recalling the holofield rule incorrectly?

as far as I knew the holofield is negating 'hits' on a 3+/4+

so any hits made against it are discounted on that roll, before damage can be rolled for, this includes D weapons.

that was one of the largest pains in the backside at the last apoc game at my LFG and that was the new book too

No, that's it. So any cover or invulnerable save the Titan might have stacks with holo-fields.

Which book has the rules for the super heavy daemons and the pylon? I'd like to check them out.

Slagmar wrote:
Which book has the rules for the super heavy daemons and the pylon? I'd like to check them out.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

Forgeworld has the list of all the 40K legal Forgeworld models and references to where you'll find the up to date rules for them.