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 Gunhead1 wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.

Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.

This is not entirely fair or true. Look at an Elysian or Terrax guard army and you will see an elite military force. Additionally many of the armoured battle group regiments are also fairly careful with their troop's lives. Some worlds and regiments do fight like this (Valhallan), some fight however the math gives the highest chance for success (DKoK), some fight using ambush tactics (Catachans and Tallarn), and some using lighting raids and air superiority (Elysian and Terrax). Heck some of them send cavalry with spears to the battlefield...variety is the name of the game for IG tactics and armies.

I agree with ansacs. The IG have gotten a bad image of being morons when it comes to tactics which is an unfair statement. It is true in some cases, but those guys don't last very long and soon your left with either the lucky ones or the good ones. So to me the IG have for the most part have decent commanders who do have an idea of what their doing.

On the topic of space travel in 40k I thought that warp travel made journeys that would take 1000s of years and turned into months or weeks with the warp doing some strange stuff that every so often made a trip take hundreds of years or as said before get there before the threat got there. To me this is the only way they could keep the IOM together and defended. If a trip took six years even from a short distance away with warp travel than no empire save Necrons and Eldar/dark Eldar could have an empire and forget the tau having one unless everything was a few light years within reach.

I pretend the WARP doesnt exist

Im know nothing about the warp (i have selective fluff syndrome) but from what i recently learnt it can work both ways.

The IoM is a lot like the British empire in my estimation. Even the fastest response could take a year to get to some places but once they do it is an overwhelming response fueled by a massive empire. And every now and then some part decides to go their own way

Unfortunately for those splinter groups there is no France to play against Britain...I guess perhaps the Tau are the closest thing.

 Harriticus wrote:

Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.

I beg to differ, but I have already said my part. Just I think that any comparison with SM in general is destined to be doomed. Are they professionals? Of course. They are closer to professional army than religious knight orders which Space Marines chapters(!) are. Are they elite? Some of them are, some are footsloggers, some are pilots, some tankist...well, what is elite? Can they stand face to face with SM, one on one? Nope. Well, with luck one guardsman can take almost anybody but we are talking about fethton of luck But can organized force of IG defeat SM or prove to be more useful? Of course...but it already depends on huge number of things like battlefield, forces, leaders etc etc.

So, I would hide any generalizing...especially in case of military sci-fi which is essentially based on notion that nothing is dealt before the fight itself

P.S. Yeah, I guess my english is mess in such huge paragraph. Sorry...

There is no way to describe the Imperial Guard 'machine'. From one planet, you will receive an army of brutish warriors all wielding swords, axes, and maces, all smelly and furs lavishly over their form of such barbaric origin lasgun in other hand blindly firing at the foe before meeting them head on with primitive weapons and the butt of the gun. Elsewhere, a small regiment of men that can barely wield a weapon being raised from a planet of scholars. From another, you will gain crazed religious nut jobs that know how to use a gun but charge forth to martyr. Elsewhere, you get a well oiled army such as DKoK that are fatalistic and prone to suicidal charges And then... then you have elite, competent armies that are entirely based about minimal loss and survival. Armies that give a damn using a combination of artillery and tanks as well as air support and orbital bombardment to allow heavy gun guardsman to position for suppression fire to allow for ambushes and overwhelming charges. In other words, a million different regiments with just as many different ways of fighting . The problem is, we often see them from the SM point of view. Think of it this way... read a SM book. Notice how inept guardsman look, how foolish and weak sisters are, and how fragile and dumb chaos forces are even when under Tzeentch many a time. Simply put, plot armour is projected over the main charaters and they are provided with god powers whilst the allies and foes are crushed into inept fools. To be honest, when guardsman are the focus, they also have a few books that does this to marines and enemy forces. Are they almost on par with Marines? Depends. Are we talking a one on one basis. Of course not! That would be nonsense! Buuuutttt.... guardsman are equal to marines in many ways and are more importantly far more vital to the survival of the Imperium. If SM were to all wither away, the Imperium wouldn't practically immediately lose. If guardsman were lost though, GG.

Onto the OP's questions.
How do they operate? Depends. Lots of higher up officials have to plan it out, found regiments, send other regiments to battle there. It can take months to have it all prepared. Guardsman will actually sometimes see their homes again. I'd argue most wouldn't, but for the "lucky" few... they would. Cadians swap out to give them some good ol' combat training and a successful regiment might be permitted to return home to defend it or just end in peace. It is more likely that they will either be grinded into nothing, absorbed into another regiment, or be permitted to colonize a new planet though. Regiment traditions are built within regiments that likely send a few emmisiaries back to home. Letters, diaries, journals, the short time return to be reloaded or extra troops on rare occassions. Annuals of history by some other planets that relay the information or somenonsense. Who knows entirely just blabbering some possibilities. Actually, yeah I think I'm going to add to my head cannon that, if there isn't anything big for them to do, they will either be shifted to guard some planet or returned back home to stand guard and wait.

Harriticus wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.

Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.

Read the short story Stormlord by Guy Haley. Some decent IG tactics are used there. Actually, read any IG books written by that guy. He 'gets it.'

StarTrotter wrote:
Onto the OP's questions.
How do they operate? Depends. Lots of higher up officials have to plan it out, found regiments, send other regiments to battle there. It can take months to have it all prepared. Guardsman will actually sometimes see their homes again. I'd argue most wouldn't, but for the "lucky" few... they would. Cadians swap out to give them some good ol' combat training and a successful regiment might be permitted to return home to defend it or just end in peace. It is more likely that they will either be grinded into nothing, absorbed into another regiment, or be permitted to colonize a new planet though. Regiment traditions are built within regiments that likely send a few emmisiaries back to home. Letters, diaries, journals, the short time return to be reloaded or extra troops on rare occassions. Annuals of history by some other planets that relay the information or somenonsense. Who knows entirely just blabbering some possibilities. Actually, yeah I think I'm going to add to my head cannon that, if there isn't anything big for them to do, they will either be shifted to guard some planet or returned back home to stand guard and wait.

A good view there. I like what what you said there.

See, that's my main issue with the fluff. The IoM has sood for 10,000 years, mainly defended by IG, there's not enough SMs to do that, they're meant to be shock troops anyway, but, here's the 'huh factor'. If the fluff states that a Guard regiment is raised, doesn't matter from what world, or what its fighting technique is, and then launched into space, where due to Warp shenanigans it takes years, or decades, or doesn't take any time at all to get to their combat zone(pick your author), and while fighting that regiment never gets reinforced, only merged with other regiments, and never gets a break, only shuffled from war to war, and never gets to return home so that the veterans can train rookies, and in fact, that regiment never gets to train, only 'learn on the job', the Imperium would last a month!

You can't defend something, and he'll, you can't collect tithes or supply the 'machine' if it takes (insert Warp shenanigans here) time to get anywhere.

it's just a big ol' bag of impractical grim darkness that wouldn't work. But, then again, it's grim dark, that's the point.

I personally don't like it.

Sergeant: Sir! Sir! Sir! The attack's over, sir! The Orcs are retreating!
Ainsworth: Oh, jolly good. Mhm.
Sergeant: Quite a lot of casualties, though, sir.
Ainsworth: M-hmm.
Sergeant: 'C' division wiped out. Signal 's gone, thirty men killed in 'F' Section...
Ainsworth: Yes. I see. Hmm.
Sergeant: I should think about a hundred-- hundred and fifty men altogether, sir.
Ainsworth: Jolly good. *sniffs*
Sergeant: I haven't got the final figures, sir, but there's a lot of seriously wounded in the compound.
Ainsworth: Yes. Well, the thing is, Sergeant, I've got a bit of a problem here. One of the officers ... has lost a leg.
Sergeant: Oh, no, sir!
-- paraphrased from Monty Python's Meaning of Life


My interpretation of the Imperial Guard? Mhm, let's see ... as with the remainder of my opinion on the setting, it is influenced mostly by GW core studio material, meaning the rulebooks and codices. I know there are less grimdark versions in some of the licensed sources, but my interest in 40k is founded in the dystopian atmosphere that is one of the few "unique" aspects of this setting as opposed to the more practical militaries of various other franchises that, for the most part, look alike with very few distinguishing features of their own. In a way, one could say 40k's focus on low tech (or technological decline) and the negligible value of a single human life are what give this franchise its character, and I just couldn't appreciate it the same way if such an important piece of the puzzle would be removed, much like I believe in the other pieces having to "fit in" with the rest for everything to successfully emanate this peculiar style.

But, to delve deeper into what I actually mean with "my interpretation" - when I look at the Imperial Guard, I do not primarily think of contemporary militaries and modern tactics, I think of a mixture between the Roman Legions and the armies of the Napoleonic Wars. Regiments are raised on their homeworld and imbued with the tradition of that planet's PDF, then shipped off to wage war on distant worlds many light years away. Depending on the means of recruitment and the homeworld's tech level, the only training with modern equipment (like lasguns) the individual trooper may receive is what he or she is taught whilst their transport is in transit through the Immaterium, en route to the warzone where the regiment will be deployed. If the regiment survives its first deployment, it is simply kept in active service and shipped to the next warzone, for the Imperium is rarely short on opportunities for martyrdom. Should a regiment actually manage to remain active for 20 years (during which the only reinforcements it may have received were survivors from other depleted regiments), it is allowed to garrison a newly conquered world, the remaining soldiers ultimately settling down akin to the Roman Legionaries of old whilst the officers become the new noble class of this world. The regiments also have little to no logistics capabilities, relying on the Navy for supply drops or requisitioning whatever they need from the locals, much like it worked for real life armies during previous centuries.

The officers themselves tend to be recruited from the original planet's ruling class, often sons and daughters of lesser nobles who have no qualms throwing away the lives of their soldiers for a fancy new medal to bring honour to their families' names, although a planet's culture may just as well see gang bosses (Savlars) or tribal warlords (Asgardians) gain a position of leadership, and in some few cases the officers may even be promoted from the lower ranks (Cadians), all with different effects on how the regiment performs in practice. It is this motley collection of only rudimentarily connected military doctrines, with the humble lasgun being the only truly standard piece of equipment, that gives the Guard its character, and which almost guarantee that anyone would be able to find a subjectively cool regiment they can identify with due to some aspect of its background and/or style.

From the faceless trench-fighters of Krieg to the women warriors of Xenan VII - the Imperial Guard can cater to anyone, as long as they are not opposed to the idea of quantity over quality. And ultimately, the fact that the individual Guardsman is so much more replaceable than a Space Marine or a Battle Sister makes their service and sacrifice all the more meaningful. The less enhancements, upgrades, indoctrination, training and advanced wargear you give someone, the more "human" they remain (a rare thing in 40k), and the more brave they need to be to hold the line in the face of mutant uprisings and alien invasion.

Now for some quotes!

Tower75 wrote:Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.

Or you simply interpret this average as some regiments being destroyed during their very first deployment, whilst others remain active for many years. Rather fitting, especially when some regiments are conscripted from inexperienced farmhands, or even raised without modern weaponry at all due to the Munitorum failing to redirect the necessary materiel in time.

That being said, I don't recall this six weeks expectancy from any GW core studio source. Novel fluff? Forge World?

Swastakowey wrote:Also hearing things about how useless lasguns are annoys me too.

I really think this is mainly a result of community hearsay (similar to 8m+ Marines or the "everything is canon" myth), likely influenced by various novels featuring protagonists being protected by plot armour fighting against lasgun-wielding opponents. In several rulesets (40k TT, Inquisitor) as well as Codex fluff, the standard lasgun is capable of punching through even Marine armour, injuring the occupant with a single shot.

Of course, the "weak lasguns" interpretation is just as valid as GW's original material - but I think it's a bit saddening how the licensed material's (mainly various novels, I reckon) focus on Space Marines seems to have made every other army look weaker in the eyes of the fandom, just because one version of the fluff is being pushed more often than another, and it unfortunately being a version that tends to have a clear protagonist rather than attempting a more balanced approach like the ruleset that treats everyone the same way.

As I already mentioned above, an individual life is worth very little in my understanding of 40k, and this is in good part because all the guns are so terrifyingly powerful that they can easily extinguish one even when precautions (such as wearing body armour) have been taken. Technology > Life is another aspect of the setting's dystopian atmosphere.

da001 wrote:The space is vast. It takes decades or even hundreds of years going from one point to another, even using Warp travel.

I think Warp travel times seem to have been exaggerated somewhat by outsourced fluff, much like it has affected the perception of the lasgun.

"Ten thousand light years can be traversed within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft. By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for the raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away."
- 2E C:IG

Sounds much more reasonable for at least having a chance to respond to an invasion, no?

Note that I still agree with your assessment regarding return travel or even mail - not because it takes months for a ship to make that tour, but simply because these ships are incredibly huge with a crew of thousands, and the troops just aren't important enough to warrant this kind of investment in resources (fuel, supplies) and fleet assets (ships) from the Navy or the few available contracted providers. Another piece of the puzzle.

Tower75 wrote:As we said, space is vast, the Imperium is vast, that means you need to watch your resources. Why fly a Regiment 1000 light-years away, if you have three-hundred and ninety planets that are closer? To me, it doesn't' make sense. [...] If you've got a million planets, each with multiple regiments, and you just fling 'em to the stars, and bounce them from one conflict to the next, and each time it takes a decade to get there, how do you manage that?
Maybe that's the point of 'GHREM DHARK!'

Now you're getting it.

And ultimately, all those faraway warzones have more need of these troops than the 390 closer planets that are currently at peace. In a pinch, the Imperium can always raise more regiments either by expanding the recruitment zone or raising the tithe, because life is cheap. Experienced regiments that have already received all the necessary equipment are a more reliable resource for the Munitorum than a fresh draft.

Iron_Captain wrote:IG regiments do usually get reinforcements from their own home planets. That probably explains the traditions, as a regiment is made up of people from the same planet.

Just to provide the original material's take on this subject - it is considered normal that veteran regiments are made up of the remains of several understrength regiments that have been merged into one, which is why you may even have soldiers in a regiment wearing different uniforms. Whenever possible the Munitorum attempts to merge regiments of the same type or even from the same homeworld, but this really depends on the availability and proximity of available forces.

Fun fact: The Codex IG army list actually portrays such mixed regiments because it is meant to be applied to any regiment you could think of. Codex Eye of Terra on the other hand featured a different army list for Cadian regiments that were "not yet diluted by prolonged off-world campaigns", as the source put it. The Cadians got some bonus due to stronger homeworld identity (every soldier in the unit was born and raised on Cadia rather than also including children fathered during a campaign, or survivors from other regiments), whilst on the flipside missing out on various assets the main army list had gained from non-Cadian reinforcements (for example, a "pure" Cadian regiment does not contain any abhumans such as Ogryns).

ansacs wrote:As far as I am aware the IG do not normally garrison planets. The only planet I can think of that have IG garrisons to defend it is Cadia. The rest are just waiting to be shipped out with PDF, skiitari, etc. forces to defend them.

This is my understanding as well. Defending a planet is mainly the job of a Planetary Defence Force (duh) which every single Imperial world is supposed to maintain by Imperial Decree (see 5E C:IG). The Imperial Guard, instead, is (usually) a unit of PDF turned into an expeditionary force that is sacrificed to the Imperial cause by sending these men and women out into the dark and horrible blackness of space to fight and die on some faraway world just so the Imperium - and with it their homeworld - endures another day.

That is their job. To hold the line.

Tower75 wrote:You can't defend something, and he'll, you can't collect tithes or supply the 'machine' if it takes (insert Warp shenanigans here) time to get anywhere.

Exactly. Which is why I don't subscribe to the "it takes a hundred years to get to X" idea that seems to have taken root in some sources.

Its funny you mention Krieg and ''only trained in ships during transition''

Considering that the fluff (mostly FW stuff, but considering how small the DKoK blurb is in the Codex, I think its alright to use that) mentions that they're trained dang near from birth or that they already had X regiments equipped and trained after the Loyalists won the civil war.

 Tower75 wrote:
Hi, all

Hello

 Tower75 wrote:

As we know, Games Workshop and Black Library's canon and fluff has been written, rewritten, agreed upon, argued against, and interpreted again and again. Basically, it's a mess! And on top of that, Games Workshop has always encouraged fans to 'make their own mind up' about fluff.

It's because everyone has their own view of a perfect 40k setting, so it's nice to have enough uncertainty to let every player live in their own perfect universe

 Tower75 wrote:

So, with that in mind, what's your view on how the Imperial Guard opperate?

Like a hammer! One where the wooden handle has rotted slightly, and the head is constantly missing the nail, and hitting the thumb instead.

 Tower75 wrote:

Okay, maybe I'm trying to bring logic to 'GREM DHARK!' But, I'm interested to hear your views. The Imperial Guard has always been 'my' army and favorite, but one thing in their fluff bugs me. So, if you'll allow me:

The fluff states that the.Imperial Guard are numberless mass of soldiers recruited from a million plus worlds, and that each planet has its own traditions and fighting style, and that once recruited, a Guardsman will never see his/her home again, and that most Guardsmen's life expectancy is something daft, like, six weeks.

Well, not quite. Each planet has a separate culture (Feral savages, hiveworlders, deathworlders, warrior cultures etc), and thus each regiment raised form them has a different persona. An IG will typically spend about 3-6 months in transit, being taught how to be a guard, and if they're put into a large battle, they can last anything from 5 seconds (the opening volley) to decades. Average life expectancy quotations for IG are pure procrastination, given how many IG are out there, making a true estimate impossible. Though, going by TT standard, 1-3 scenes of combat is sufficient to give each man a death.
Many IG cannot return home due to logistical issues, though some do retire and get given leave.

 Tower75 wrote:

I get that the Guard are meant to be a trillion, trillion strong mass of flesh that's just meant to be thrown at enemies until they go away, but that confuses me. Okay, 'the Guard' are a hoard, but individual regiments are not. So, let's say we take a Regiment from World A and send them to war somewhere. After that, what happens, does that Regiment just fight there until it either dies or wins?

Yes. It's logistically impractical to give tours of service like do IRL.

 Tower75 wrote:

If it wins why can't it return home? Surely garrisoning that Regiment at their home planet makes more sense, no?

The IOM just spent 3-6 months of transit and a good fleet of spacecraft to get those IG to war, they're not about to make a return trip while the IOM still has enemies. Many IG regiments are garrisoned, but they have to call for reinforcements for alien/heretic threats that are to large for them, and that causes displaced forces.

 Tower75 wrote:

I really dislike this idea that the Regiment gets raised and flung into space where it seems to just disappear. I mean, while on campaign, where's it garrisoned?

Usually on a world near the warzone, a ship in orbit, or the warzone itself.

 Tower75 wrote:

Traditions confuse me, too. If, we are to believe, a Regiment doesn't return home, how do Regimental traditions take hold. Baring in mind that Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 from World A would be seperated by 300 years and Warp distortion, AND they never return home, which means they can't pass on their tradition and experience, how can these traditions and skills take hold on a group of soldiers from a particular world?

The IOM tries to group similar regiments together, both to help keep track of what exactly they're sending around the galaxy, and to not have the awkward case of a puritanical warrior culture regiment meeting a platoon of Ogryns. This means that the 293rd Landsharks will keep getting smooshed together with other Landsharks, allowing for tradition. That, and the commanders of each regiment tend to stick around.
Traditions are also passed down through a planet's culture, so the regiments (even 300 years down the line) can end up being almost exactly the same.

 Tower75 wrote:

The Baneblade novel has a Veteran Regiment return home, but that's only to get recruits and bugger off again. It's also the only reference to returning troops I can find.

Because usually that planet will already have a garrison, and if they're not fighting anything off, they don't ned the surplus men, so the IOM has the regiment stop off for a refuel, reload and regroup, and then sends them to the nearest call to arms.

 Tower75 wrote:

Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.

An IG's life expectancy is pure procrastination, and #grimdark.

 Tower75 wrote:

In my opinion, I would just prefer it if Regiments were garrisoned at home, and not flung to the stars and seemingly lost. Imagine a regiment from your own country. Okay, they're sent to war in some country, they could be there for ten years, but in that time they can take leave, get mail from home, receive reinforcements from home, etc., etc. After that, they return home, and if needs be, leave the service. That's how I'd like my Guard to be.

Some IG forces are like that, but only the ones who weren't called out to half the galaxy away to fight on a planet who's garrison was overpowered. Usually, by the time an IG regiment has spent 10 years fighting, they're either:
-Too far from home for the IOM to even bother sending them back
-Too few in number to bother with, and get sandwiched into another battlegroup (and moved with them instead)
-Too horribly changed to be safe around normal humans (and will probably spill the beans about the horrors of the galaxy)
-Been called out to another warzone that needs help
-Or they're dead.

 Tower75 wrote:

Anyway, that's my views.

What's yours?

Well, my view is that the IG and the IOM is too large to see the military operate anywhere near as smoothly as they do in modern earth. Sometimes things just get too large-scale for return trips.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
The IoM is a lot like the British empire in my estimation. Even the fastest response could take a year to get to some places but once they do it is an overwhelming response fueled by a massive empire. And every now and then some part decides to go their own way

Unfortunately for those splinter groups there is no France to play against Britain...I guess perhaps the Tau are the closest thing.

That... actually makes sense.

Have an exalt, good sir!

Bobthehero wrote:Its funny you mention Krieg and ''only trained in ships during transition''

Not really. I said "depending on the manner of recruitment" and "the only training a trooper MAY receive".

Do you consider the DKoK as a standard, or rather an exception from the rule? That's what it comes down to. I'm sure some people like to see the Imperial Guard as a whole as a much more professional organisation, yet in my opinion as formed by the studio material, the degree of professionalism depends entirely on which world a regiment was recruited from, with less trained regiments being far more common simply because the "source planet" isn't such an extreme like Krieg where an entire world seems to exist for the sole purpose of providing grunts for the grinder. No, when thinking of the average Imperial world, I'm thinking backwater Agriworlds, gang-dominated Hives, and feral tribes on untamed plains. That is where the Guard draws most of its troops from, not Cadia, not Krieg. But just like with any faction's background, we mostly hear about the famous regiments and legendary victories. You could say that the individual "poster boy" regiments like the Cadian Shock Troops are about as representative for the Guard as the Ultramarines are for SM, which is why I prefer looking at the more general background that is not bound to any particular fighting formation.

But again: Matter of preferences.

Selym wrote:Like a hammer! One where the wooden handle has rotted slightly, and the head is constantly missing the nail, and hitting the thumb instead.

Well put. Have an exalt as well!

I guess we have similar views; I see my interpretation reflected in your post.

 Tower75 wrote:
The fluff states that the.Imperial Guard are numberless mass of soldiers recruited from a million plus worlds, and that each planet has its own traditions and fighting style, and that once recruited, a Guardsman will never see his/her home again, and that most Guardsmen's life expectancy is something daft, like, six weeks.

I think the fluff actually states that most will never see their homes again, but some do. The six week life expectancy isn't that daft though, its actually surprisingly long. There have been times in actual human history where the life expectancy of a newly deployed troop was much shorter than that. During WW2 the average life expectancy of a freshly trained RAF pilot during the Battle of Britain was less than two weeks. The USAF calculated the life expectancy of A-10 pilots deployed to western europe in the event of a ww3 scenario to be less than 2 weeks. Life expectancy of a US Army/Marine Corps Lieutenant in combat during Vietnam was calculated at 16 minutes, etc. etc. At various times during both World Wars the life expectancy of a soldier in whatever army was measured in minutes, hours, or days.

Keep in mind the measure of life expectancy starts at the moment that you enter a combat situation, and "resets" when you leave it. So in the case of the US LT's in 'Nam above, every time they went out on patrol (for example) it was assumed they would survive approximately 16 minutes. The clock reset the moment that patrol is ended, so its hardly daft, if anything its too damned long.

I get that the Guard are meant to be a trillion, trillion strong mass of flesh that's just meant to be thrown at enemies until they go away, but that confuses me. Okay, 'the Guard' are a hoard, but individual regiments are not. So, let's say we take a Regiment from World A and send them to war somewhere. After that, what happens, does that Regiment just fight there until it either dies or wins? If it wins why can't it return home? Surely garrisoning that Regiment at their home planet makes more sense, no?

I've read before that Imperial Guard units are given settlement rights, either following something like 20 successful campaigns, or in some instances just after one campaign under certain conditions. In other words, your reward for retiring from the Guard (if you survive) is to be given property.

Traditions confuse me, too. If, we are to believe, a Regiment doesn't return home, how do Regimental traditions take hold. Baring in mind that Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 from World A would be seperated by 300 years and Warp distortion, AND they never return home, which means they can't pass on their tradition and experience, how can these traditions and skills take hold on a group of soldiers from a particular world?

You're confusing a few things. First, again, its not that once in the Guard you never return home, its just that you usually don't (because you're dead by the time the opportunity comes around again). The regiment itself, as an entity, survives by reinforcement in the field. So if Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 are out there, unless they are completely destroyed, they will continue to be reinforced until such time that the Regiment returns home, that is how the traditions take hold. Also keep in mind that officers are a bit different in that sense, as there are examples in the fluff of officers being transferred from unit to unit, etc. And since they are usually from the nobility, they usually will be able to return home.

Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.

Again, you're not measuring it as 6 weeks from departure, its 6 weeks from entering a combat situation, which might only last 1 week or it might last 12. And again, they are reinforced in the field, sometimes by those from their homeworld, sometimes from another world entirely, sometimes by merging 2 existing under-strength regiments into a new one.

In my opinion, I would just prefer it if Regiments were garrisoned at home, and not flung to the stars and seemingly lost. Imagine a regiment from your own country. Okay, they're sent to war in some country, they could be there for ten years, but in that time they can take leave, get mail from home, receive reinforcements from home, etc., etc. After that, they return home, and if needs be, leave the service. That's how I'd like my Guard to be.

Thats more or less how it works in the fluff...

Reusing the same regimental number doesn't 't count, as that's just reusing the number. The originals would all be dead and gone.

Not entirely true, the US military has disbanded and reconstituted various units throughout its history, often times when it was only "just a number". The newly activated unit will usually take the nickname and mottos, etc. of the previous unit (which is most of the tradition you have to worry about). Sometimes the traditions of the unit prior to stand-down are preserved in documentation, and these are re-instated, sometimes new traditions are created based on events in the units past.

Also keep in mind, that a unit being "destroyed" doesn't mean every last man, woman, and child and every last piece of equipment is lost. Destroyed means that the unit is reduced below its useful fighting strength and no longer capable of sustaining combat operations. So a destroyed regiment will usually return home to rebuild itself. There might only be a couple hundreds left out of the initial thousands, ten thousands, or hundred thousands, but a few survivors is all you need to pass on the legacy to a new unit.

 Lynata wrote:


Do you consider the DKoK as a standard, or rather an exception from the rule?.

Exception, obviously, but its the standard the Guard should be aiming for

I don't think due credit is being given to the abilities of regiments drawn from the less developed worlds, worlds like Tanith and Catachan to name some famous examples. These regiments have talents of their own that can far surpass those of other, more trained, better equipped, and more professional regiments. The environment and culture of any planet offers something to the capabilities of its guardsmen. The regiments of the Imperial Guard are all equivalent due to this. All regiments have their strengths, weaknesses and different methods of fighting a war.

chaos0xomega wrote:Keep in mind the measure of life expectancy starts at the moment that you enter a combat situation, and "resets" when you leave it.

That ... doesn't add up. What kind of A-10 mission is supposed to take two weeks?
I've always understood life expectancy to be applied to 1 Tour of Duty - the time from entering and leaving a warzone. For example, in the case of the Vietnam War, it was 12 months or so?

chaos0xomega wrote:So if Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 are out there, unless they are completely destroyed, they will continue to be reinforced until such time that the Regiment returns home, that is how the traditions take hold

Aside from my personal preference of the studio fluff, I don't see why a regiment would need to "return home" to pass on a tradition. Looking at the various regiments we have, their traditions exist because of the world the troops were mustered on, not from what they learned or adopted during battle.

The Catachan Jungle Fighters are expert guerilla because that's the only way to survive on Catachan.
The Valhallan Ice Warriors are good against Orcs because Valhalla was invaded by Orcs and the hatred stuck.
The Elysian Drop Troops are good at boarding actions because that's what they do in their home system.
The Mordian Iron Guard has impeccable discipline because that's what allowed their world to survive a Chaos invasion.
The Savlar Chem Dogs are cunning killers because they're a bunch of criminals hailing from a really bleak penal colony.

In fact, if newly raised regiments would depend on troops "returning home", that tradition would be sullied by mergers with units from entirely different world, not to mention any weird habits they might have taken up on their campaigns, be it due to interaction with locals or something special that happened in a battle.

Bobthehero wrote:Exception, obviously, but its the standard the Guard should be aiming for

I thought that was Cadia!

Also keep in mind, that a unit being "destroyed" doesn't mean every last man, woman, and child and every last piece of equipment is lost. Destroyed means that the unit is reduced below its useful fighting strength and no longer capable of sustaining combat operations. So a destroyed regiment will usually return home to rebuild itself. There might only be a couple hundreds left out of the initial thousands, ten thousands, or hundred thousands, but a few survivors is all you need to pass on the legacy to a new unit.

Not in the IG. It's too wasteful in time and resources to send a unit back to its homeworld to reinforce.

If you had a mechanized infantry regiment... let's call it the Montrean 33rd... that was reduced to 20% of its fighting strength... and a light infantry regiment, let's call it the Valdean Light Rifles.... that was reduced to 10% of its fighting strength. And one combat engineering battalion that doesn't have many troops but its got a lot of armor... and after one big scrap with some Orks is down to 30% of its original strength... let's call it the Trinickeldi 555th Regiment.

You take these regiments, regardless of their planets of origin, and smash them all together and give them a new name in your current theater of operations. So now we have the MontValTri 33/555 Light Rifles. It's a mechanized infantry regiment with a bevvy of Rhinos, Chimeras and Gorgons.

 Lynata wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Keep in mind the measure of life expectancy starts at the moment that you enter a combat situation, and "resets" when you leave it.

That ... doesn't add up. What kind of A-10 mission is supposed to take two weeks?
I've always understood life expectancy to be applied to 1 Tour of Duty - the time from entering and leaving a warzone. For example, in the case of the Vietnam War, it was 12 months or so?

Nope it adds up perfectly, they were to be employed from forward operating bases very close to the front lines generating 4 sorties per day per pilot, so you are in the AO 24/7 over that 2 week period. They calculated out losses per sortie, etc. and the entire force of approx. 700 planes was calculated to be lost in that 2 week period, meaning approx. 700 dead, wounded, or captured pilots. And yes and no, tour of duty isn't quite the same, because during that tour of duty (especially in Veitnam, not quite as familiar with it today) you could be cycled in and out of the AO/combat zones, and usually that was the case with patrols (as I understand it) as many of them started in areas outside of a designated combat zone, and you only "entered" the AO after getting a couple miles out of the gate. Really what it comes down to is semantics and definition.

The Catachan Jungle Fighters are expert guerilla because that's the only way to survive on Catachan.
The Valhallan Ice Warriors are good against Orcs because Valhalla was invaded by Orcs and the hatred stuck.
The Elysian Drop Troops are good at boarding actions because that's what they do in their home system.
The Mordian Iron Guard has impeccable discipline because that's what allowed their world to survive a Chaos invasion.
The Savlar Chem Dogs are cunning killers because they're a bunch of criminals hailing from a really bleak penal colony.

Thats not tradition, thats specialization.

Not in the IG. It's too wasteful in time and resources to send a unit back to its homeworld to reinforce.

If you had a mechanized infantry regiment... let's call it the Montrean 33rd... that was reduced to 20% of its fighting strength... and a light infantry regiment, let's call it the Valdean Light Rifles.... that was reduced to 10% of its fighting strength. And one combat engineering battalion that doesn't have many troops but its got a lot of armor... and after one big scrap with some Orks is down to 30% of its original strength... let's call it the Trinickeldi 555th Regiment.

You take these regiments, regardless of their planets of origin, and smash them all together and give them a new name in your current theater of operations. So now we have the MontValTri 33/555 Light Rifles. It's a mechanized infantry regiment with a bevvy of Rhinos, Chimeras and Gorgons.

Thats a very sweeping generalization to make, yes that does happen, but there are examples in the fluff of the survivors being sent back to their homeworld to reinforce. I forget if its in the codex or one of the Forgeworld books, but theres a blurb that talks specifically about how some regiments of particular fame have been in continuous service for millenia because they are a point of pride for their homeworlds because of some honor won in a past war, etc. and that they are reformed whenever they are destroyed.

That's "reformed" not "reinforced".

That's the homeworld getting a note from the Departmento Munitorum saying "this unit suffered 100% casualties last week. Send us another one." and the planet raises another Regiment, tacks on the honors and distinctions of its last incarnation, and ships them out.

Two things I would like to add into Lynata's overview.

The IG is supposed to be the cream of the crop as compared to the PDF. So theoretically they should be noticeably better soldiers than a PDF force. This may not be true in some places due to dirty politicians, etc. but is an overall maxim.

The DKoK at the very least have regimental banners and artifacts them return to Krieg and pass down. I doubt many DKoK troopers return but those that do probably only do so to train a new regiment and go back out again.


Yeah, there are actually a lot of parallels to the British empire. Even the variety of forces (look at some of their armies; Indian, British, American, African, and Australian regiments...that is some fair variety) and the idea of expeditionary forces versus garrison forces. Even the travel times of 2-4 months to get anywhere are very 1700 century.

 ansacs wrote:
1700 century.

*16th century

Why would the PDF suck compared to the imperial guard? Wouldnt it make sense for them to have the same training and gear? If anything the only thing the PDF will lack is experience, but so do fresh Imperial Regiments?

Also its tradition not specialization. All the forces on that planet follow the tradition of training and the honour of taking on that planets traditional wargear. They specialize in something because of their tradition.

And the mashing of other worlds together happens as rarely as possible to avoid clashes in tradition. It does happen but it is avoided whenever possible.

To me it seems interesting but its almost like for every situation the imperial guard need to overcome, there is a planet who's tradition gives it the skill to over come it. Another reason they try avoid merging troops. Because they will water down this specialization to the point they start becoming ineffective.

Also the life expectancy is far far too broad to be of any value. So many variations id dismiss it as GW trying to make it more grim without giving it much thought.

I think starship troopers is a good example of how an imperial guard regiment would behave. At first they suffer big time (both navy and infantry) but they develop tactics and ideas and as reinforcements start to come in the older veterans start to teach them and lead them and so on. But even then they still have huge casualty rates but they arent just being sent in a meat grinder all day every day till they are dead. But it can give you an idea also of how a planet could view life in the military and so on.

Also even things as little as uniform need to replaced ad i doubt there is a giant factory that spews out uniforms for all the regiments so its possible there are dedicated fleets that go round gathering reinforcements and gear for the regiments of a campaign. Otherwise moral will start to go down as they cant wear their traditional uniforms and their gear starts to suffer.

I think if you view the way the imperial guard works as more of a well planned and thought out machine with unpredictable execution (due to warp and so on) then it can make sense why soldiers can see their home again for example: A campaign in a certain area would probably draw troops from the surrounding planets. This makes sense. Obviously they might take from further planets too but this becomes the exception if anything.

Of course there are some bad eggs in the imperial guard but they will be weeded out unless tradition keeps them there.

Reinforcements are mentioned a few times above, and as much I want 'my' Guard to receive reinforcements from home, I thought fluff stated that regiments aren't reinforced, just smashed into other regiments.

Of course, this entire thread could be voided when the new IG Codex comes out and the fluff gets refluffed.

 Lynata wrote:

da001 wrote:The space is vast. It takes decades or even hundreds of years going from one point to another, even using Warp travel.

I think Warp travel times seem to have been exaggerated somewhat by outsourced fluff, much like it has affected the perception of the lasgun.

"Ten thousand light years can be traversed within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft. By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for the raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away."
- 2E C:IG

Sounds much more reasonable for at least having a chance to respond to an invasion, no?

Note that I still agree with your assessment regarding return travel or even mail - not because it takes months for a ship to make that tour, but simply because these ships are incredibly huge with a crew of thousands, and the troops just aren't important enough to warrant this kind of investment in resources (fuel, supplies) and fleet assets (ships) from the Navy or the few available contracted providers. Another piece of the puzzle.

Didn´t know that quote. Interesting.
I wonder where did I get the impression that it took years to go from one place to another...

I would just like to point out that if a Regiment is whipped out, the homeworld is notified and the colors are remade with the Regiment being deployed during the next tithe cycle for when the IoM comes knocking. No regiment is permanently gone unless the homeworld is. A fine example from the codex is shown during the Valhallan's section (Probably because Chenkov caused it ).

Also even things as little as uniform need to replaced ad i doubt there is a giant factory that spews out uniforms for all the regiments so its possible there are dedicated fleets that go round gathering reinforcements and gear for the regiments of a campaign. Otherwise moral will start to go down as they cant wear their traditional uniforms and their gear starts to suffer.

There are huge textile manufactorums on worlds that produce clothing. Why would not one (or ten) of these be dedicated to churning out some sort of generic IG uniform? After all, the three pairs of socks, two sets of boxers and two uniforms you shipped out with from your homeworld aren't going to last forever.

Uniforms are very important for militarism. Very important. You cant just take away the National uniform and give them bland bits and pieces. The imperium puts a lot of effort into the moral of soldiers and uniforms are one of them.

The imperium puts a lot of effort into the moral of soldiers and uniforms are one of them.

You must be kidding.

Their efforts towards morale are "if you look like you might run away, the man in the tall hat is going to shoot you".

 Psienesis wrote:

The imperium puts a lot of effort into the moral of soldiers and uniforms are one of them.

You must be kidding.

Their efforts towards morale are "if you look like you might run away, the man in the tall hat is going to shoot you".

Hardly. Why do they bother giving them alcohol for example. Everybody knows fear doesn't work for long if at all. Its only done in harsh situations where it's absolutely necessary. Why resort to temporary methods when you can use those as a last resort? Fear doesn't work and it would be unreasonable to think that's how they deal with moral all the time.

The DM doesn't "give" them alcohol. Soldiers make that for themselves in barracks distilleries or other scratch-built devices.

Citizens looking to make a buck might form bands of "followers", as has been the case of militaries on the march since before the birth of Christ, that will run speak-easies or gambling dens or stores or prostitution rings or any one of a thousand other services that the "enlisted man" needs or wants, but the military does not fulfill.

The absolute lowest-price resource in the Imperium is manpower.

 Psienesis wrote:
The DM doesn't "give" them alcohol. Soldiers make that for themselves in barracks distilleries or other scratch-built devices.

Citizens looking to make a buck might form bands of "followers", as has been the case of militaries on the march since before the birth of Christ, that will run speak-easies or gambling dens or stores or prostitution rings or any one of a thousand other services that the "enlisted man" needs or wants, but the military does not fulfill.

The absolute lowest-price resource in the Imperium is manpower.

Doesnt mean they use fear to keep people in check 100% of the time. Commissars are taught to keep a blind eye to things for the purpose of moral. The priests offer consultation and emotional help. If they relied on fear people would not fight. Look at france in ww1, The soviets in the second world war had to ease up on the harsh punishments of their own men because it wasnt working. It would not be possible for people to put up with being shot for every little problem. For every man killed means another has to be brought down to replace it. Commissars are free to choose how to deal with a situation because they know killing people doesnt work.

The commissar section even says they must earn the loyalties of their troops to (in regards to the more savage ones too) to have any success on the field. However for hive worlds with huge crime rates and so on, fear and punishment is necessary more so.

A commissar cant stop an army, another army has to be brought in to stop an army. So why give an army a reason to rebel? They dont treat their men like dirt. Unless of course they deserve it.

And from what i have read amasec is widely available for the imperial guard without punishment. They also have brothels on space ships whilst on transit too. A lot of effort is put into the moral of troops. As in any military. Without good moral troops are doomed for failure.

And yet, some regiments do function that way.

And sometimes they do treat their men like dirt. Why? Because if they rebel, where are they going to go?

And from what i have read amasec is widely available for the imperial guard without punishment. They also have brothels on space ships whilst on transit too. A lot of effort is put into the moral of troops. As in any military. Without good moral troops are doomed for failure.

That's the civilian camp-followers I mentioned. Detailed greatly in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. That's not the DM supplying the soldiers, that's the local commanders not doing anything about something that isn't too big a problem (until it becomes one, like the bar aboard the ship that tries to kill Harker, Luud and a few other Ghosts.... and gets taken down by Naval Security.) The amasec being supplied there is of civilian manufacture or it's being served at Officer's Mess, which is, as the name implies, not open to enlisted soldiers. You don't get to eat with the brass if you're not wearing brass yourself, and they always eat better than you do.

chaos0xomega wrote:Nope it adds up perfectly, they were to be employed from forward operating bases very close to the front lines generating 4 sorties per day per pilot, so you are in the AO 24/7 over that 2 week period.

Ah, see, now we're at "Area of Operation" rather than single missions like a patrol. Yes, it does come down to semantics and definition, but they make an important difference here, because just like sorties can be flown out of the AO, so could patrols be deployed for persistent frontline action. Or Guard regiments.

Found something whilst googling, by the way:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Weeks-Gallant-British-Officer/dp/1409102149

Given that GW is a British company, and that there's a whole lot of references to the UK's martial past, could this be the origin?
It'd certainly help to know the full quote and the source of this supposed six weeks expectancy, though...

chaos0xomega wrote:Thats not tradition, thats specialization.

I was referring more to what's attached to that specialisation, which I think is a major part of a regiment's tradition.
Ultimately it comes down to the question of whether or not you believe that the regiment already had a tradition before it was converted from PDF to IG. Why should PDF formations not have their own tradition already, which would then be carried on by the newly-made Guard regiment? Even if a regiment would be recruited out of some tribesmen (Asgardians) or a gang (Necromunda), they'd have the traditions of the tribe or their gang - or any other affiliation they held before. The degree of professional militarism obviously depends on how much of a military they were before.

Swastakowey wrote:Why would the PDF suck compared to the imperial guard? Wouldnt it make sense for them to have the same training and gear? If anything the only thing the PDF will lack is experience, but so do fresh Imperial Regiments?

I'd say it's a case-by-case thing. Some planets have a professional military PDF like Cadia's Interior Guard (which even includes IG regiments cycled back in from offworld duty - the only example, and perhaps the only case of regiments returning back home), or Mordia and Valhalla, but for others the "PDF" may just be a loose connection of warlord forces and militias.
Still, I think the PDF gets treated unfairly in the minds of a lot of people (I'm sure this too is the fault of various novels, though partially there's also bound to be a lot of studio fluff that sees the PDF lose badly just because unlike all the other factions they are the ones who must always be there if some world gets invaded by an outer space horror), and if the Guard is usually recruited out of the ranks of the PDF, then arguably the difference cannot be too big.

The 5E Guard Codex actually specifically addresses this - it's as if the writers at GW themselves have noticed that there's bit of a misconception in the fandom they want to address:

"Imperial Guardsmen outrank their counterparts who serve in the fighting forces of their home world; indeed, many veterans look down on regiments whose only duty is to defend their own planet. These forces are perceived by some Guardsmen as having little combat experience. This is, of course, far from the truth, as the Imperium of Man is beset on all fronts. Relentless raids of pirates and encroachments by aliens are continually opposed by every planet's own military forces. Standing firm in the face of brutal horrors, these brave soldiers fight and die just as well as their comrades in the Imperial Guard, but without the glories and honours won on distant worlds."
- 5E C:IG

Tower75 wrote:Reinforcements are mentioned a few times above, and as much I want 'my' Guard to receive reinforcements from home, I thought fluff stated that regiments aren't reinforced, just smashed into other regiments.
Of course, this entire thread could be voided when the new IG Codex comes out and the fluff gets refluffed.

I wouldn't bet on it - the fluff in GW's own books has been surprisingly consistent since 2E, at least moreso than is generally believed. Most contradictions are the results of various licensed products.
That being said, those deviant interpretations - including your own ideas! - are just as valid as the Codex fluff, so there's no reason why you could not simply make something up that suits you?

da001 wrote:Didn´t know that quote. Interesting.
I wonder where did I get the impression that it took years to go from one place to another...

I'm betting a novel, or a FW book, or perhaps FFG's Rogue Trader RPG?

The more writers you have working on a franchise, the more different visions you'll eventually end up with - at least if you don't have a canon policy like Battletech or Star Wars, and GW seems to embrace the overlapping interpretations as part of their "everything and nothing is true" deal that treats all sources as if they were compromised by historical revisionism, propaganda and myth.