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So I'm the lucky git that has the bundle containing a raven and 2 talons coming his way for Christmas, and I'm just wondering how to go about loading them, any thoughts?

I like plasma cannons so am keen to include them, though I am aware that this can damage me as well as my enemy. So do I skip this as go full AI on the raven with AT / AA on the talons, or do a mix on all 3 (despite the feeling that each one should specialise in anti horde, anti meq and at separately).

Any tips as to which fits which role best please?

Thanks!


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Ps my regular opponents are tau with a penchant for crisis suits and riptides / nids when they get a new release and orks, though this opponent is considering a cron air or daemon force as a second project

I ALWAYS take my Stormravens with assault cannon, multi-melta. Remember you have Power of the Machine Spirit, so you can shoot at a different target, meaning you aren't dedicated to just anti-armor or anti-infantry. You can do both in the same turn.

As to the Stormtalons, those things are awesome and I will always run them with the Skyhammer missiles. Those guys are straight anti-infantry, though they can handle medium armor ok. Take advantage of Strafing Run and drop some BS5 dakka on those ground targets.

Exactly as above, by far the best and cost-effective configuration

Personally, I take the Lascannon and MultiMelta. But it's all on what role you want it to take.

My StormRaven is 100% used for tank and air hunting. I have plenty of things in my army that can take down infantry. It's the armor and especially the enemies airforce that I sometimes struggle with.

I'd rather have a second high power weapon.

Just my two cents.

Agreed. The only other config I see is having lascannons on the talons and the raven, and swapping the multimelta for a typhoon launcher. This is mainly used when you need lots of high strength, long range firepower and becomes more of a tank hunter force at this point. Generally not seen much though as mathhammer will tell most folks that the MM and AC combo on the raven is statisitcally more viable, but its half the range of the 2nd config. YMMW.

Bolters are good on the raven as well, especially as it gets strafing run too if you run the formation.

Oh, if there is one thing I would never put on my raven, its the plasma cannon. One small blast, albeit twin linked and AP2, is not enough to outweigh the loss of shooting at air targets (blast weapons cant target flyers). Also, the AC is better at damaging vehicles and hordes and with rending can still do a bit of damage to heavy infantry. Again YMMV.

 CrazyBones wrote:
Personally, I take the Lascannon and MultiMelta. But it's all on what role you want it to take.

My StormRaven is 100% used for tank and air hunting. I have plenty of things in my army that can take down infantry. It's the armor and especially the enemies airforce that I sometimes struggle with.

I'd rather have a second high power weapon.

Just my two cents.

Seconded. I prefer lascannon/multi-melta for busting enemy flyers.

Cool thanks all I'm liking the sound of lc and mm, never really given much thought to the ac...ever tbh... just so I've asked how good a gun is this anyway? Not just on the raven but speeders, dreads, lr's?

I think with them being standard equipment I've always considered them to be fairly... I dunno... least viable option...?

I bought myself this box at the start of the month (oops!) I've currently nearly finished one ST and am about halfway through painting the SR. I'm going for AC/MM/HCB's on the Raven and AC/TML on both Talons. Basically I'm planning on using the Raven to get my assault termies up the board and the Talons are there to support where needed.

It's a great kit, you'll enjoy building and painting I'm sure :-)

Please magnitize the stormraven turret. It is really easy and you will want to swap the setup eventually.

The MM is the best on the front. Having a TL MM on a flyer is what makes the stormraven even remotely worth it's points.

The Lascannon is best if you are not taking the hurricane bolters, in fact this is the most effective anti hellturkey weapon in the SM arsenal.

If you take the hurricane bolters then the assault cannon can be very good. However this build is just better in every way when used by GK.

The Assault Cannon is considered a relatively poor weapon overall. It is almost always overpriced for what it does. The best place for it is GK vehicles with psy ammo and storm talons to butt shoot.

I'll have to disagree on Assault Cannons being inferior. S6 rending shots can reliably take out medium armor and infantry alike. Particularly with them being twin-linked, you're going to hurt things via volume of fire.

I also love taking the sponsons on my GK stormraven with the assault cannon and psybolt ammo. Lots of S5/S7/S8 shooting coming your way when that bad boy comes in.

GK ravens do indeed have the advantage of Psybolt ammo, which makes hurricanes and assault cannons murder on infantry. For any other chapter though I would stick to Lascannon and Multimelta (or if you are like me and like the range, the typhoon launcher).

I run my Stormraven with the Multi-Melta and Lascannons for great effect

Great tank/flyer busting with it

Yes that description by ansacs of Assault Cannon is categorically incorrect. It is the best weapon against a huge array of targets. The only real downside is its 24" range, which is mitigated greatly by flyers.

Assault cannons outperform lascannons etc per turn of shooting.

Although, I agree with ansacs assessment that assault cannon, multimelta and hurricane bolters make a nice build.

I'm torn

On the one hand I love missiles - they're a dominant feature in my force. On the other, I need (as learnt last week in a game vs Tau with suit spam) big powerful guns, of the caliber provided by LC's and MM's.

I'm thinking typhoon launcher and LC for range, as this will help me to stay out of, or at, extreme range of XV88's / riptides (of the latter have any AA capability).

Broadsides with HYMP (36") and Riptides with HBC (36" IIRC*) can be outranged by lascannons/Typhoon missles, but not Broadsides with Rail Rifles (60") and Riptides with Ion Accelerators (72").

LC + Typhoon or AC+MM+Hurricane bolters seem like very clean builds.


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I also got this for xmas, from myself of course. I built it:

Stormraven AC+MM+Hurricane bolters
2x Stormtalons AC+Skyhammer

Homeskillet wrote:I'll have to disagree on Assault Cannons being inferior. S6 rending shots can reliably take out medium armor and infantry alike. Particularly with them being twin-linked, you're going to hurt things via volume of fire.

I also love taking the sponsons on my GK stormraven with the assault cannon and psybolt ammo. Lots of S5/S7/S8 shooting coming your way when that bad boy comes in.

Dracos wrote:Yes that description by ansacs of Assault Cannon is categorically incorrect. It is the best weapon against a huge array of targets. The only real downside is its 24" range, which is mitigated greatly by flyers.

Assault cannons outperform lascannons etc per turn of shooting.

Although, I agree with ansacs assessment that assault cannon, multimelta and hurricane bolters make a nice build.

Prove it then. Against any AV value.
LC (1 shot, TL)
AV10
0.9 HP, 25% explode
AV11
0.7 HP, 20% explode
AV12
0.6 HP, 15% explode
AV13
0.4 HP, 10% explode
AV14
0.3 HP, 5% explode

AsC (4 shots, TL)
AV10
1.8 HP, 20% explode
AV11
1.1 HP, 10% explode
AV12
0.6 HP, 10% explode
AV13
0.6 HP, 7% explode
AV14
0.4 HP, 3% explode

Considering the price tag of the assault cannon is higher than the lascannon stripping HP to kill something is pure fantasy. So where are you getting that I am "categorically incorrect"?

Now if you meant against infantry. Possibly, though at that level you have better be taking the hurricane bolters to help out as 1 assault cannon for 200+ pts is a terrible way to kill troops.

The assault cannon is not the best weapon vs a huge array of targets, especially with its insane price tag and limited range. Compare the assault cannon to the scatter laser and be ready to vomit.

The assault cannon needs a ROF of 6 or 8 to put in on par with Xeno weapons, and even then, it would cause less than a glance on average against a wave serpent or a hellturkey.

What ever you do don't escort. That special rule is a trap that gives you less flyers coming on the board on average not more...

To be fair the AssCan has to may the mythical rending AND flexibility taxes. All weapons with these mythical properties must multiply their cost beyond reason. Look at the poor eldar and IG missile launchers.

Escort can be useful when you want your flyers to overwhelm someones interceptor. Against very heavy AA Tau or IG (sabre platform spam) or heavy reserves manipulation bringing single flyers on is a death sentence. I do agree that it is a newbie trap more often than not though.

It depends on whether early entry is more important than piecemealing. The escort rule does keep you fliers from entering piecemeal to be picked apart.

Piecemealing is super important, because I'd say 60-70% of the victories I have with BA is from my opponent voluntarily crippling himself with the reserve rules. If your army of 1850 becomes an army of 700-400-750, suddenly 1850 pts of BA look a lot better.


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 ansacs wrote:
To be fair the AssCan has to may the mythical rending AND flexibility taxes. All weapons with these mythical properties must multiply their cost beyond reason. Look at the poor eldar and IG missile launchers.

Escort can be useful when you want your flyers to overwhelm someones interceptor. Against very heavy AA Tau or IG (sabre platform spam) or heavy reserves manipulation bringing single flyers on is a death sentence. I do agree that it is a newbie trap more often than not though.

Those taxes make it a bad weapon. Because GW fails at math. To truly model a vulcan cannon, it should be ROF 8. But whatever.

All this being said, the AC option for the raven does work well with the hurricane sponsons (which I would always use) and my favored storm talon load out is skyhammer/AC. So, yeah, while the AC is very disappointing compared to Xeno weapons, its kind of what the Imperium has.

Apologies, I was using math from 5th when AP2 was not superior to AP4.

Worth noting is that I took out to-hit from the equation as the to-hit ratio will effect this equally for both weapons. This is calculated assuming 100% hit rate, since hit rate doesn't matter for comparison purposes and adds an extra step (or two for twin linked).
I also omitted the chance of getting 2 immob results since that is not going to have a huge impact on the calculations (1 shot lascannons, assault cannons getting too few pens to matter much).

Las Av. Hull points // Av. Explodes
Av10 1 // 0.28
Av11 0.83 // 0.22
Av12 0.67 // 0.17
Av13 0.5 // 0.11
Av14 0.33 // 0.06

Assault cannon Av. Hull points // Av. Explodes
Av10 2 // 0.22
Av11 1.32 // 0.12
Av12 0.68 // 0.12
Av13 0.68 // 0.08
Av14 0.46 // 0.04

Non-av (no cover) Lascannon // Assault cannon
GEQ (or orks) 0.83 // 3.32
MEQ 0.83 // 0.91
TEQ 0.56 // 0.56
MC (t6 3+) 0.83 // 0.66

Non-av (5+ cover) Lascannon // Assault cannon
GEQ (or orks) 0.56 // 2.22
MEQ 0.56 // 0.91
TEQ 0.56 // 0.56
MC (t6 3+) 0.55 // 0.66


Assault cannons are categorically better at taking off hull points, at the cost of a lower explodes result. This only matters at av 11 and 12 where the difference might actually be noticeable. Against MCs(without cover) AV 11 and AV 12, the lascannon is superior. Against all other AVs, you have to weigh the slightly better explodes results against the larger difference in average hull points taken. The assault cannon is better against non-AV targets - except certain MCs out of cover. (edit 2 cleaned up this para)

Cover affects all vehicles uniformly, but non- AV targets will get more protection from cover when facing lascannons than assault cannons.

I think this favours assault cannons, but by a smaller margin than I calculated for 5th.

edit: Comparing the Assault cannon to weapons not available to the Space Marines has no practical relevance - you don't get to pick between a lascannon and a scatterlazer.

edit3: I didn't even take rending into account against non-av... making the disparity even greater.

For non-flyer ACs, the range is a serious gimp factor. Very, very serious.

Acs on non-flyers don't have their range limitations mitigated in the same way, but even on other vehicles you are moving 6"-12" a turn and shooting it. I don't think most people would consider 30"-36" threat bubble "a serious gimp factor".

So we agree that at best they are tied and at worse the lascannon wins by explosion results? Now remember that the assault cannon is significantly more points.

The GEQ and MEQ killing is made up for with improved killing of MC and T4 multi wound from the lascannon.

Honestly the stormraven usually needs to be independent in what it fires at. It is very normal for the stormraven to be the only unit to shoot at a flyer. This means that explodes results are much more important that HP stripping.

On top of this vector lock and weapon destroyed are often almost as good as destroying a flyer. Not to mention getting a stunned or shaken on a helldrake stops it from shooting. Therefore the lascannons greater chance to pen and better damage results would need to be weighted against the Assault cannons better HP stripping. Now we have gotten so complicated it is impossibe to math. Therefore it is easier to just look at the chance to destroy in a single turn. The lascannon does better in that department in all AV categories.

No, my conclusion was that Assault cannons are better.

It's not impossible to math, but I'm not going to do it. Most people find a way to give their MCs cover or an invulnerable save, which makes the AC better against them.

On which vehicle does the assault cannon cost "significantly more points"?

I've always ran x2 talons and a raven (very pleased when data slate came out btw). I've always gone bare bones.

Raven with melta/LC and talons with skyhammers. My flyers are meant to be anti-flyer first and anti-vehicle second. My main force has no trouble with TEQ, MEQ, or GEQ. But Heldrakes and Valkyries cause me headaches. My goal is to keep it cheap, skies of fury my cargo and then I need the range of the LCs as I usually drop my centurions away from enemy flyers.

ACs are points spent in the wrong place for me and their shorter range loses utility. If I was going anti infantry with a raven, it would be PC +HB for me on the raven, not the AC.

Stormtalons are Skyhammers in my mind. From a points spent to efficiency standpoint, they are in the sweet spot.

For the Raven, I think MM/AsC is the way to go. From a pure tank hunting POV, the LCs do have some perks, but the assault cannons are just more flexible. As a free swap, I'll stick with the AsC.

While I like HBs in general, The primary job of our aircraft is keeping the skies clear. That's a job fit for the MM, not the HB. If you had plenty of AA elsewhere in your army, I could see going with a HB/PC + sponsons set up as a pure ground attack bird. But that's a little too specialized for me.

The TML is not worth the points to upgrade it. The free options are fine, and we are already keeping a chunk of points in reserve. Keep the points down when you can.

 Dracos wrote:
Acs on non-flyers don't have their range limitations mitigated in the same way, but even on other vehicles you are moving 6"-12" a turn and shooting it. I don't think most people would consider 30"-36" threat bubble "a serious gimp factor".

They would be wrong. The concept of "threat bubble" is not that useful in my experience, since sometimes you want to move *away* from your opponent, and then you subtract your movement from the range. I bait in AC armed units all the time, because if they want to shoot their crappy little gun, they often have to move to specific spots. That is a serious gimping. With a 48" range imperial weapon, I can lounge around wherever in my deployment zone and maybe even put some enemy weapons out of LOS while still getting my target. The AC simply doesn't have the ROF to justify its price and range and opportunity cost.


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 Dracos wrote:
No, my conclusion was that Assault cannons are better.

It's not impossible to math, but I'm not going to do it. Most people find a way to give their MCs cover or an invulnerable save, which makes the AC better against them.

On which vehicle does the assault cannon cost "significantly more points"?

Most imperial weapon upgrades are overcosted, and the assault cannon is almost always one of the worst culprits.