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2014/06/09 13:43:39
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
Manchu wrote: I think it's more a matter of Fifth leaving no one behind rather than a must-have accessory.
Considering that it doesn't seem to be trying to even placate 4th players, I think my group will likely stick with that for now till we have evidence of these modules that will be in place.
2014/06/09 15:55:15
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
All signs point to 5E being modular. That is, if you want a super heavy rules experience (as per 4E) you can bolt all that stuff on. If what you mean by "placate 4th players" is force everyone who plays 5E to play a 4E-style game, then no I guess 5E is not doing that.
Over the next few weeks, this space will serve as a front row seat into the upcoming Starter Set for the fifth edition of Dungeons & Dragons. To get things started, let’s take a look at some of what went into the set’s design.
The Starter Set has a fairly straightforward goal. It needs to serve as a gateway through which new DMs enter the hobby, building on the player material that will live online with Basic D&D. As a secondary goal, the Starter Set must also provide long-term value. In the past, intro sets for RPGs have often been focused on a stripped-down adventure scenario and a limited version of the rules that becomes irrelevant once players move on to the full version of the game. We wanted this new set to be something you could keep on your shelf and use again in the future.
We decided early on that any materials likely to be used only once had to be eliminated from the set or kept to a minimum. One example would be a tutorial that teaches the rules through a scripted adventure. And in deciding that such a tutorial is something we didn’t want, we were able to think about how that kind of resource would be much better suited to other media—such as online video. Because we’re giving players the opportunity to learn the game without investing any money in it (with our move to make Basic D&D a free download), a new player who downloads the rules can then make use of video tutorials that provide a much better experience of how D&D works. This approach would be like packaging a master DM like Chris Perkins in every Starter Set.
Once we had an idea of what we wanted to avoid, we focused on what to include. The Keep on the Borderlands is the classic adventure bundled with the 1981 D&D Basic Set. The locations and encounter scenarios introduced in that adventure have stood the test of time, with DMs still using them to run games today. With that in mind, we decided to focus on making the adventure the key component of the Starter Set. A good adventure sees use again and again.
Moreover, we wanted an adventure that was similar to Keep on the Borderlands, but a bit more focused on helping new DMs launch campaigns. The original Keep is almost completely open-ended, but feedback during the playtest told us that some new DMs felt lost when figuring out exactly where to take an open-ended adventure. We wanted an adventure with a bit of direction to launch a campaign, which could then segue to a more open-ended approach after a play group has a couple of game sessions under its belt.
The result is Lost Mine of Phandelver. Weighing in at sixty-four pages, it provides enough material to advance characters up to 5th level. The first segment of the adventure puts DMs through the basics of asking for checks and saving throws, as the characters venture into a goblin lair on a rescue mission. Once the adventurers have dealt with the goblins, they have free reign to explore the region around the village of Phandalin. Three more dungeons and five other adventure locations provide novice DMs with plenty of material to keep a campaign going for months. With Basic D&D as a natural next step, DMs will have the tools they need to further expand the region and keep the action going.
We’ll talk about Lost Mine of Phandelver in more detail next week. The adventure’s author, Rich Baker, has graciously agreed to answer a few questions about the process of creating it.
In addition to Lost Mine of Phandelver, the Starter Set also includes a rulebook. This provides the basic rules of play, descriptions of the spells used by the pregenerated characters and NPCs, and the magic items found in the adventure. In addition, it makes a handy table reference for things like equipment and combat rules, and we expect that DMs who move on to Basic D&D or the three core rulebooks will continue to use the Starter Set rulebook as an extra resource during play.
The adventure comes with five pregenerated characters—a dwarf cleric, two human fighters, an elf wizard, and a halfling rogue. One of the fighters uses a large axe and heavy armor. The other is an archer clad in leather armor. Since the fighter is easily the most popular class in the game, we decided to offer two takes on it rather than a fifth character class. This approach also makes it easy for players to modify the pregenerated characters using Basic D&D, and to advance them past 5th level.
Finally, the Starter Set comes with a set of six polyhedral dice—marbled blue in color with white numbers. I have three of these sets in my dice bag—all early samples sent over by the factory. If you’ve watched our live stream games, you might have seen them in use.
That’s the starter set in a nutshell. As of the publication of this article—June 9, 2014—the Player’s Handbook will have been dispatched to our printer. It’s hard to believe that the past couple of years of work have come to an end on that project. With the Player’s Handbook behind us, we next turn our attention to the Monster Manual, while the Dungeon Master’s Guide and The Rise of Tiamat receive further design and editing.
I'm cautiously optimistic, mostly from having watched/listened to a few 5th edition playtests...
...but the return of the linear fighter/quadratic wizard dynamic is going to take me a long time to get over. And I still don't like what they've done with paladins since 4th, and as far as I can tell, 5th hasn't reverted them back.
2014/06/09 22:38:08
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
As a fighter goes up in level, he certainly gets more powerful.
As a magic-user goes up in level, he certainly get ridiculously powerful.
So, a level 7 fighter can certainly do a lot of nice things, and is nasty in HTH, while a level 7 magic-user is frying multiple enemies with fire balls, lightning bolts and what-nots.
Not to mention wands, staves and various other magic items.
2014/06/10 13:58:29
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
Mike Mearls wrote:Why would I want to buy the DMG? That's more, well, you'd buy it if you wanted to start building your own campaigns and really want mechanical support for it. You want to do something like [...] alter some of the mechanics so it feels more like Fourth Edition, so I want quicker rests and things like that, more encounter-based things.
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2014/06/10 17:40:23
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
...but the return of the linear fighter/quadratic wizard dynamic is going to take me a long time to get over.
Could you explain these two? Are you talking about how a fighter grows in power level versus a wizard or something?
(as of 3.5)...
A 1st level fighter can Waggle a length of sharpened metal at a dude next to him.
A 1st Level Wizard knock enemies to the ground, blind them, shrink/grow himself and others, just to start.
A 3rd level fighter can Waggle a length of sharpened metal at a dude.
A 3rd level wizard can summon otherwordly creatures, open interdimensonal safe zones, transform into other people & races, and blind large groups of foes at a great distance.
A 5th level fighter can Waggle a length of sharpened metal at a dude next to him.
A 5th level wizard can summon clouds of nauesting gas that completely incapacitate foes in a large area, can fly, can speed or slown down the passage of time for others, can undo the magic of others, and can render a person entirely defenseless with gesture at 50 yards.
A 7th level fighter level fighter can Waggle a length of sharpened metal at a dude next to him, twice! (but the second time is really inaccurate)
A 7th level wizard can trap all but the strongest enemies in a bank of impassable magic fog, can instantly kill a foe with a nightmare, can turn themselves or others into powerful monsters, can sap the life energy of another with touch, become totally invisible and still fight, lay curses, see across miles and teleport.
and so on...... until
A 17th level fighter can waggle a stick or whatever, he's pretty good at it I guess. Maybe some other stuff due to magic items some wizard made while bored over a weekend.
A 17th level wizard can turn the fighter into a toblerone and eat him. If he feels like stopping time, summoning the entire great hosts of all of both heaven & hell to his side, might be a bit to draining for him to keep creating his own personal universe that day.
EDIT: Or to put a bit more dry mechanical terms:
Mechanics the fighter has: Roll to hit vs AC to cause hit point damage. (also like grappling I guess, and other gak that doesn't work on dragons and the like).
Mechanics the Wizard has: All of them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 17:44:14
2014/06/10 17:43:56
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
But why the presumption that classes should be balanced to begin with? This is quite a modern development and I think it has to do with the idea that every character has a right to 20+ levels.
Manchu wrote: But why the presumption that classes should be balanced to begin with? This is quite a modern development and I think it has to do with the idea that every character has a right to 20+ levels.
Because while this makes for a good comedy sketch:
It doesn't make for very good gameplay dynamics.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 17:52:46
2014/06/10 17:56:38
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
But that isn't what happened with earlier editions. Seriously, go play some Basic. There is no (recognizable) attempt to balance anything against anything. Works fine.
Truth is, balance is only an issue because of a certain mentality about stats on a character sheet.
Manchu wrote: But that isn't what happened with earlier editions. Seriously, go play some Basic. There is no (recognizable) attempt to balance anything against anything. Works fine.
Truth is, balance is only an issue because of a certain mentality about stats on a character sheet.
I would honestly say, as a player, that balance only comes into play for a DM. By this I mean that it's the DM/GM who design encounters and whatnot, so it's his/her job to ensure that the encounter is at the right challenge level for the party.
2014/06/10 18:03:05
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
Manchu wrote: But that isn't what happened with earlier editions. Seriously, go play some Basic. There is no (recognizable) attempt to balance anything against anything. Works fine.
Truth is, balance is only an issue because of a certain mentality about stats on a character sheet.
You've just described older versions as being balanced (you don't get BMX Bandit & Angel Summoner), as a counter argument to the idea that things should be balanced.
Now just because there was no "recognizable attempt" to create it, and they reached that balance by some mix of luck, intuition, and/or general mechanics restrictions doesn't mean that making balance a design goal is a bad idea.
2014/06/10 18:08:31
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
Ensis Ferrae wrote: it's his/her job to ensure that the encounter is at the right challenge level for the party
Again, this is only true in newer editions. In older editions, you could come across a dragon at level one. It was not the DM's job to make sure you only encountered things you could handle. It was your job to know when to run.
Chongara wrote: You've just described older versions as being balanced (you don't get BMX Bandit & Angel Summoner), as a counter argument to the idea that things should be balanced.
Now just because there was no "recognizable attempt" to create it, and they reached that balance by some mix of luck, intuition, and/or general mechanics restrictions doesn't mean that making balance a design goal is a bad idea.
Would be cool if you didn't try to speak for me. No, I am not describing older versions as being balanced. I am saying balance was not a goal of older versions. And yes I have thought about this quite a lot, understand the difference between the two concepts, and mean exactly what I am saying. Balance was not an issue in older editions because characters were not defined by the four corners of a character sheet as per newer editions.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: it's his/her job to ensure that the encounter is at the right challenge level for the party
Again, this is only true in newer editions. In older editions, you could come across a dragon at level one. It was not the DM's job to make sure you only encountered things you could handle. It was your job to know when to run.
I'd say that's still the DMs "job"... I think you are correct in the whole "people have a RIGHT to a level 20 character" is kind of a new phenomenon (I've only started playing in 4th, but I enjoy history as a subject) and so many thing, even in the officially released guides are geared much more towards ensuring the party gets there.
2014/06/10 18:19:23
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
Depends on what you mean by "still." As in, "even to this day"? Well, sort of, inasmuch as that is definitely the DM's job in 3.5 and 4E, i.e., later editions. But this wasn't the case in the past. Aside from some admittedly primitive (and entirely optional) HD-based calculations, "encounter balance" is a WotC innovation. Not just an innovation, mind you, but a central design element.
Manchu wrote: No, I am not describing older versions as being balanced. I am saying balance was not a goal of older versions. And yes I have thought about this quite a lot, understand the difference between the two concepts, and mean exactly what I am saying. Balance was not an issue in older editions because characters were not defined by the four corners of a character sheet as per newer editions.
You seem to be trying to make a fuzzy distinction at best.
Was BMX Bandit & Angel Summoner a "Thing that could happen as defined by the rules" or not?
If the answer to the question is yes, then things were not balanced.
If the answer to the question is no, then things were (at least), relatively speaking balanced.
If your argument is that characters did things that weren't on the character sheet, weren't defined within the games written mechanics then that has nothing to do with any property of those rule sets. That's a playstyle choice of using freeform RP elements. It's like judging two versions of shooting rules in RPG because when using one set you sometimes decided that if you used two Gatling guns at once, that's an instant kill on godzilla. Cool perhaps but not a part of the system.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 18:29:32
2014/06/10 18:31:56
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
older editions weren't balanced, but it didn't matter. It was ok that some characters were more powerful than others, and while there were efforts to reign stuff in, nobody would think that the PCs in any given encounter were balanced with each other.
Thieves had limited combat ability, but an interesting suite of dungeoneering abilities. Mages of course had virtually not melee, but encounter shifting spells. The problem was that you had to ration your spells out, as you almost always had more encounters than spell levels to easily handle them.
So yes, Wizards got to be way more powerful, but often did little in most combats, even at higher levels, while the fighters could do damage turn in and turn out.
2014/06/10 18:36:25
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): New "Basic D&D" = Free PDF, p. 7
Depends on what you mean by "still." As in, "even to this day"? Well, sort of, inasmuch as that is definitely the DM's job in 3.5 and 4E, i.e., later editions. But this wasn't the case in the past. Aside from some admittedly primitive (and entirely optional) HD-based calculations, "encounter balance" is a WotC innovation. Not just an innovation, mind you, but a central design element.
Maybe we're talking past each other here... But, in the first campaign I ever played in, my buddy designed all encounters for the party to face... As I later talked to him about it, he talked about how he wanted to created varying levels of difficulty from "ZOMG... if you hit this, you will all DIIIIIEEEEE" to "was that really a fight?" So for him, his idea of "balance" came down to whether or not a fight should be easier to face or not, as well as what role the creatures/beings fought had within the storyline. It didn't make sense for us to be cleansing a chapel of undead rot, and face a red dragon, or goblins.... Also, within the overall story arc and combat encounters, he liked to occasionally take more creatures who would be extremely hard for one or two characters to deal with, but were "easy" for the others, and flip flop (ie, undead and paladins, or magic resistant creatures for the wizard, etc)
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