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2014/07/30 18:15:24
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
At the DM’s discretion, an impenitent paladin
might be forced to abandon this class and adopt
another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin
option that appears in the Dungeon)Master’s)Guide.
Oh god no, they really had to bring this back.
2014/07/30 19:08:17
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
At the DM’s discretion, an impenitent paladin
might be forced to abandon this class and adopt
another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin
option that appears in the Dungeon)Master’s)Guide.
Oh god no, they really had to bring this back.
Well, it's DM's discretion, so not that big a deal.
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2014/07/30 19:11:16
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Bah, the picture of the barbarian should be a halfling berserker wielding an axe as big as she is.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/07/30 20:19:55
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Oath of Vengeance
The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment
to punish those who have committed a grievous
sin. When evil forces slaughter helpless villagers,
when an entire people turns against the will of
the gods, when a thieves’ guild grows too violent
and powerful, when a dragon rampages through
the countryside—at times like these, paladins
arise and swear an Oath of Vengeance to set
right that which has gone wrong. To these
paladins—sometimes called avengers or dark
knights—their own purity is not as important as
delivering justice.
Tenets of Vengeance
The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin,
but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers
by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these
tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own
righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do
evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral
in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are
brutally simple.
Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting
my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the
greater evil.
No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my
mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.
By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the
way of exterminating my foes.
Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is
because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed
by their misdeeds.
Oh god. I can just hear the heavy mouth-breathing as some overly excited neckbeard insists yeah he's totally a good guy for torturing petty thieves to death because "Oath of Vengeance". What a bother.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:20:11
2014/07/30 20:27:22
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/07/30 20:42:57
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Once we have the final text of the paladin's Sacred oath rules, we will have a better picture of how to use them.
The best way I ever came up to play a Paladin was to sit down and write a series of actual vows my character took and to briefly explain to the DM that the spirit trumps the letter. So, all questions of alignment aside, the matter was pretty simple: break the spirit of the vows and lose your Paladin status.
Here are the vows I wrote for my werewolf-hunting order if anyone is interested in an example of this method:
Spoiler:
- The Vow of Yew -- Vigilant Sobriety: To absolutely avoid voluntary intoxication (that is, actual stupefaction of the senses) by means of drink or similar substances; to avoid self-righteousness, arrogance, and inappropriate material ostentation -- and so to tithe, as per the Swords & Wizardry rules. To accept destruction rather than give into bestial motives: harmful acts committed in anger and malice require handing oneself over to the lawful authorities for judgement and punishment, including death. (Lawful authorities means those proper to the Brotherhood's world view. Even in the Underdark, Drow would not be considered lawful authorities.)
- The Vow of Amethyst -- Obedient Purity: To obey in good conscience the commands of the Brotherhood elders. (Good conscience means that the paladin is not bound to carry out orders obviously at odds with his other vows or general alignment but also that he cannot avoid the spirit of the command by appealing to its letter.) Also, to avoid all romantic entanglement until the Brotherhood itself chooses a spouse for the paladin. (This having to do with the Brotherhood and Sisterhood wishing to carefully manage the lycanthropic bloodlines.)
- The Vow of Silver -- Redemptive Pursuit: To tirelessly hunt down the wicked (most literally werewolves) but in every instance to capture and imprison; to never take into one's own discretion whether another person merits life or death. (All humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings no matter what mental or phsyical state [except the condition of undeath] are persons; other races, especially those that are uniformly evil, may or may not be as per the circumstances but usually are not.) This includes putting oneself between the transgressor and those who would harm him unless they are lawfully entitled to do so.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:46:08
Chongara wrote:Oh god. I can just hear the heavy mouth-breathing as some overly excited neckbeard insists yeah he's totally a good guy for torturing petty thieves to death because "Oath of Vengeance". What a bother.
Melissia wrote:Yeah, that gak wouldn't fly with me as a DM...
What's the problem with Oath of Vengeance? It isn't the only Paladin oath, it's just the one I happened to cut and paste.
People justifying ends by any means are a well established part of both real life and fantasy worlds. Why wouldn't they have a paladin like this?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ensis Ferrae wrote: So, it seems they are "forcing" paladins into the "lawful good = lawful nice" trope?? (I know we had a thread on this a bit ago)
Did you read Oath of Vengeance?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:46:40
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2014/07/30 20:47:06
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
As far as I'm concerned-- and this was my official stance as a DM-- cold-blooded torture is beyond the scope of a good person. Hot-blooded torture MIGHT be within their scope, but it makes them teeter on the edge of an alignment change-- and if they don't regret it and try to do better next time, their alignment won't be good for long.
I don't know if Paladins in 5e need to be good-aligned any more or even if the alignment system exists in 5e, but that's what I was trying to communicate.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/07/30 20:47:54
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Ensis Ferrae wrote: So, it seems they are "forcing" paladins into the "lawful good = lawful nice" trope?? (I know we had a thread on this a bit ago)
Did you read Oath of Vengeance?
Plus there's the Oathbreaker path.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: I don't know if Paladins in 5e need to be good-aligned any more or even if the alignment system exists in 5e, but that's what I was trying to communicate.
Alignment non-exists in 5E so far, which is to say, it is there but it doesn't seem to do anything, at least not in the Basic PDF. This is another element of 5E that is pretty similar to 4E.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:48:59
Fair enough. My guess is that it'll probably be restricted to artifacts or which god you can get powers from as a cleric or something.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/07/30 20:50:41
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Oath of Devotion
The Oath of Devotion binds a paladin to the
loftiest ideals of justice, virtue, and order.
Sometimes called cavaliers, white knights, or
holy warriors, these paladins meet the ideal of
the knight in shining armor, acting with honor in
pursuit of justice and the greater good. They
hold themselves to the highest standards of
conduct, and some, for better or worse, hold the
rest of the world to the same standards. Many
who swear this oath are devoted to gods of law
and good and use their gods’ tenets as the
measure of their devotion. They hold angels—
the perfect servants of good—as their ideals, and
incorporate images of angelic wings into their
helmets or coats of arms.
Tenets of Devotion
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of
Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your
promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish
those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but
temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your
honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much
good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their
consequences, protect those entrusted to your care,
and obey those who have just authority over you.
Oath of the Ancients
The Oath of the Ancients is as old as the race of
elves and the rituals of the druids. Sometimes
called fey knights, green knights, or horned
knights, paladins who swear this oath cast their
lot with the side of the light in the cosmic
struggle against darkness because they love the
beautiful and lifeWgiving things of the world, not
necessarily because they believe in principles of
honor, courage, and justice. They adorn their
armor and clothing with images of growing
things—leaves, antlers, or flowers—to reflect
their commitment to preserving life and light in
the world.
Tenets of the Ancients
The tenets of the Oath of the Ancients have been
preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath
emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns
of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.
Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy,
kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the
world, beating back despair.
Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love,
and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness
that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand
against the forces that would render it barren.
Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter,
in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your
own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.
Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in
despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth
in all your deeds.
Oath of Vengeance
The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment
to punish those who have committed a grievous
sin. When evil forces slaughter helpless villagers,
when an entire people turns against the will of
the gods, when a thieves’ guild grows too violent
and powerful, when a dragon rampages through
the countryside—at times like these, paladins
arise and swear an Oath of Vengeance to set
right that which has gone wrong. To these
paladins—sometimes called avengers or dark
knights—their own purity is not as important as
delivering justice.
Tenets of Vengeance
The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin,
but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers
by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these
tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own
righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do
evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral
in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are
brutally simple.
Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting
my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the
greater evil.
No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my
mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.
By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the
way of exterminating my foes.
Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is
because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed
by their misdeeds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I didn't see an alignment requirement for Paladin, but may have missed it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:51:10
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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2014/07/30 20:51:48
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
I really wish neutrality wasn't so tied to being a nature freak.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/07/30 20:53:19
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Hm, Vengeance says you can be Neutral or LN for a Paladin, so there goes alignment requirements.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: I really wish neutrality wasn't so tied to being a nature freak.
It isn't.
The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin,
but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers
by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these
tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own
righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do
evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral
in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are
brutally simple.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:54:03
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2014/07/30 20:59:58
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
What's the problem with Oath of Vengeance? It isn't the only Paladin oath, it's just the one I happened to cut and paste.
People justifying ends by any means are a well established part of both real life and fantasy worlds. Why wouldn't they have a paladin like this?
Have you seriously been lucky enough to avoid the vast swath of RPG players who seem to want any excuse to break an NPCs fingers, set sapient beings on fire, and pull a lot of gak that just sometimes crosses the line into sexual assault?
I swear there is this whole class of people who think Jack Bauer or your average Liam Neeson character are the height of ethics. Certainly these characters exist but they're not heroes and they're not paragons of anything save perhaps expedience, which hardly counts a virtue by any measure.
I get what WotC seems to be going for here. A crusading sort of paladin who goes out and slays dragons, or topples tyrants stopping along the way to help those affected by their actions.
What a lot of "That Guys" are going to do with it is use it as an excuse to cut off the hands of mooks that have surrendered, or play inquisitioner with anyone they assume has some small chance of having information.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 21:00:45
2014/07/30 21:07:52
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
The old torture trope has happened in almost every game I have ever played across all the groups I have played with and, yes, I have definitely done it myself. I actually insisted on torturing a prisoner as the paladin character I mentioned above. The rule set was Swords & Wizardry: the alignment system does not have a good/evil axis so Paladins are only required to be lawful. Torture violated neither my character's alignment nor his vows. Now, you can say he was a bad guy or even psychotic for inflicting torture on another sapient. I won't disagree. The DM and the other PCs were kind of shocked -- not that torture was happening (and it wasn't super gross-out stuff, either) but that the Paladin was doing it.
My point was to subvert the Paladin trope. I concluded from this experiment that Paladin's should be LG and LG should basically mean courteous, helpful, and valiant for Paladins. There is more than enough grimdark potential in the other character classes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 21:10:40
Chongara wrote: Have you seriously been lucky enough to avoid the vast swath of RPG players who seem to want any excuse to break an NPCs fingers, set sapient beings on fire, and pull a lot of gak that just sometimes crosses the line into sexual assault?
So you play with a lot of creepy douches? Yeah, I don't play with those kind of folks.
[quote[I get what WotC seems to be going for here. A crusading sort of paladin who goes out and slays dragons, or topples tyrants stopping along the way to help those affected by their actions.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: So, it seems they are "forcing" paladins into the "lawful good = lawful nice" trope?? (I know we had a thread on this a bit ago)
Did you read Oath of Vengeance?
Yep, and to me it reads like a "Get out of Jail Free" card, with the small print reading "as long as you're being not nice to an evilly aligned being"
What does that have to do with 'lawful nice' though? OoV is definitely not nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 21:10:45
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2014/07/30 21:20:45
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
So you play with a lot of creepy douches? Yeah, I don't play with those kind of folks.
Then you're lucky. Sometimes they're your only option. Sometimes they don't telegraph themselves until 12 sessions in when they finally get the opportunity to "Shine". Sometimes they're otherwise tolerable players who just get hung up doing this one goddamn awful thing whenever it comes up. Sometimes it's a combination. They can sneak in other ways too.
I'm glad I'm (mostly), free of them in my current playgroup but they are problem. Oath Vengeance is worded in such a way as to give those types maximum leeway for disruptive behavior - particularly with inexperienced or unassertive GMs.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/30 21:23:33
2014/07/30 21:38:25
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
As far as I'm concerned-- and this was my official stance as a DM-- cold-blooded torture is beyond the scope of a good person. Hot-blooded torture MIGHT be within their scope, but it makes them teeter on the edge of an alignment change-- and if they don't regret it and try to do better next time, their alignment won't be good for long.
I don't know if Paladins in 5e need to be good-aligned any more or even if the alignment system exists in 5e, but that's what I was trying to communicate.
3.5 had a book about being good and torturing in the Exalted Champions one.
2014/07/30 22:32:17
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/07/31 01:15:48
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)