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2014/09/04 19:53:39
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
D&D does not comprise a traditional setting. It is better thought of as a unifying theme tying many different settings together, including not only published material but also the stuff people make and use at their own tables. Not every group uses everything published by TSR/WotC for an edition in their games. AD&D particularly is just a bundle of tools players can pick and choose from. Psionics can exist alongside magic (although I personally don't think they are distinct enough) or perhaps in a certain setting there is no magic but there is Psionics. The high-level in-setting explanation for Psionics has to do with the Far Realm, a plane of existence utterly alien to the material, inner, and outer planes. This is where aberrations (mind flayers, aboleths, beholders, grell, etc) come from. While fantastically, magic in D&D is "native" to the normal world. Psionics comes from beyond.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 20:25:58
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 20:13:34
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Manchu wrote: The high-level in-setting explanation for Psionics has to do with the Far Realm, a plane of existence utterly alien to the material, inner, and outer planes. This is where aberrations (mind flayers, aboleths, beholders, grell, etc) come from. While fantastically, magic in D&D is "native" to the normal world. Psionics comes from beyond.
Those are just in-game rationalizations for why psionics are different than magic. I'm talking about the role psionics and magic play in a game setting. In that regard, they are identical. Psionics let you do magical stuff. Magic lets you do magical stuff. Doesn't matter if magic comes from the gods, or intense study, or your racial heritage, or how awesome you are, or if it comes from your brain; it's all magic. It serves the same purpose; to allow somebody to be something other than a fighter or rogue. That's why I don't understand why they needed to add it to D&D (or *any* fantasy setting that already has magic... Palladium Fantasy, I'm looking at you) when you already have magic to do magic with. Psionics in sci-fi makes sense: it's how you explain magic in a setting that "magic" wouldn't be readily accepted. That's why I don't see the need for psionics is a setting that already has magic. "Magic" is readily accepted in a fantasy setting, so why do you need to add a new magic that lets you do stuff that magic already lets you do?
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/09/04 20:17:56
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
squidhills wrote: Doesn't matter if magic comes from [...] how awesome you are
DnD does not run like Exalted
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 20:24:05
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Aww, Manchu... I'm sorry that you don't appreciate the full awesomeness that is Exalted. I will pray for you. Hopefully my fervent prayers that will grant you enough motes of Essence to see the truth
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 20:33:33
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Manchu wrote: M, you should start an Exalted thread. You can 'educate' me there.
I did a long time ago, but well, the playerbase for Exalted is pretty small sadly.
Actually, I'm kind of wondering if there IS a "I have magical powers because I'm just plain awesome" character type in the new edition yet now... I really need to pick up the PHB...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 20:43:06
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
squidhills wrote: Doesn't matter if magic comes from [...] how awesome you are
DnD does not run like Exalted
How do you think Bards work?
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/09/04 20:45:44
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 20:51:06
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 20:56:23
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
I played in an Exalted game a buddy of mine ran once and I didn't really enjoy myself. I'm not totally willing to blame it on the game though as me and him couldn't be more different in terms our RPG-ing styles, so it's kind like an oil and water thing.
It had some good ideas, some of the art was cool and conceptually it's really neat. However I found it off putting in the same way I seem to find all WW games. I'm not sure how to describe it but it always feels like their settings are too caught up in themselves. It feels more like I'm getting the setting as it happened in someone else's campaign, rather than guide to an actual place.
Not that D&D does the "Actual Place" thing all that much better it really throws you a loose connection of tropes and some names. It's just that the WW games always feel like they're trying to give you a world but give you a stage built for somebody else's PCs.
I dunno maybe it's that I've mostly played WW games that particular friend and people that learned GMing directly from him.
imo they're probably the class closest to the "Sweet Spot" in the 3e era, and 4e kind of leveled the playing field for everyone. They're looking to be insane power houses in 5e. Like if my upcoming 5e game turns into an extended campaign I'm seriously thinking I might have prune them a bit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 21:01:41
2014/09/04 20:58:57
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
"“The introduction of psionic combat is bound to enliven games grown stagnant. It opens up untold possibilities for both the players and the DM, and in so doing recognizes one of the favorite topics of science fiction and fantasy writers: the unknown powers of the mind.”"
That doesn't address the issues I have with it. It is magic, by another name, with another ruleset (at least in 2.0 and 3.x). The question is; why? Does Vancian magic not work anymore? If so, why not change magic to work differently, rather than add a new magic system under a different name? "Unknown poers of the mind"...? That works great in sci-fi, but it is superfluous in fantasy. Who cares about the powers of the mind? How are they any different than the magic already present in a fantasy setting? Psionics give you superpowers. Magic gives you superpowers. Why do you need two sources of superpowers in the same game?
In a sci-fi game, you can use "psionics" to explain why characters have superpowers/cast spells. Psionics are a soft-science (or pseudo-science) explanation for magic in a setting that (apart from Star Wars) shouldn't have magic. Psionics work in sci-fi and have a reason to be there. They serve no purpose in fantasy, because why do you need a pseudo-science explanation for magic, when you already have magic?
Actually, if you read the article I posted, it does.
Spoiler:
The first time psionics is ever mentioned in D&D is in Eldritch Wizardry, supplement 3 from the Original D&D books. The first mention reads,
“The introduction of psionic combat is bound to enliven games grown stagnant. It opens up untold possibilities for both the players and the DM, and in so doing recognizes one of the favorite topics of science fiction and fantasy writers: the unknown powers of the mind.”
Notice that “powers of the mind” are cited as the source of the ability. Notable is that in this book, most classes had the potential to possess psionic power, including Magic Users and Clerics, but also Fighting Men and Thieves, notable because the later classes cannot possess magical abilities. Psionics is clearly different than magic right out of the gate
Probably the most notorious and feared psionic monster, mind flayers, also made their debut in this book. In their description it reads,
“Although non-magical, these monsters are 90% magic resistant.”
Putting both of those entries together, it seems clear that psionics is intended to be something other than magic.
Next appearance is in the 1st ed. AD&D Player’s Handbook Appendix I. The opening sentence reads,
“Psionics are various powers derived from the brain, and they enable characters so endowed to perform in ways which resemble magical abilities.”
Once again in this edition, any character had the potential to possess psionic abilities.
In 2nd Edition, Psionics finally gets a spotlight in the form of its own handbook, The Complete Psionics Handbook, and its first official class, the Psioinicist. Have a full handbook devoted to the power gave the designers time to directly address what psioncs is and is not. An entire page is written under the heading, “Is Psionics Magical?”
“Many people assume that psionics is just another type of magic - one wielded by wizards and the other by clerics. So it is not unreasonable to ask, “Does the game really need third type of magic?”
The answer is no, the game probably does not need a third type of magic. But the question is misinformed because psionics is not magic. Magic is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize the natural forces that infuse the game world that surround the characters…
Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being. His effort is focused inward rather that outward. He must be completely in touch with an aware of even the tiniest workings of his body and mind.”
This idea is again reinforced in 3rd edition in the Psionics Handbook,
“Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind’s potential. A psionic character is blessed with a form innate ability that allows him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks…”
4th edition is where the developers decide to take a right (wrong?) turn. This is the first time we see the mention of the oxymoronic term, “psionic magic”. There is talk of the gods being involved in the Living Gate and reference to “monks training themselves to access this rare and mysterious power. 4th editions response to psionics is to say that it is external to the character, going so far as to suggest that it is a defiling energy seeping from the Far Realm. They also suggest that psionic ability might be a reaction to this external force, similar to the mortal body’s reaction to disease
To say that I am disappointed with 4th edition’s take on psionics is an understatement. It's contrary to everything psionics has been up to this point in the game. I hope that they recognize this as they move forward and return psionics to what it was, the power of the mind itself. Since we know that we use only a fraction of the mind’s potential, the idea of fantasy characters who have realized that potential is an amazing idea. It’s a concept that resonates fundamentally with players because we all have a mind and therefore are potentially psionic. To attempt to alter psionics into another form of magic or universal power in which characters must learn to access, not only waters down traditional magic, but it contradicts the history of psionics in the game.
I say to the developers, please give psionics the same attention you have given to other parts of the game developed in D&D Next,. Go back through the history of the subject’s life in the game and attempt to arrive at something that makes sense. I hope that as the module books are developed, player feedback continues to be requested and incorporated into design.
“Many people assume that psionics is just another type of magic - one wielded by wizards and the other by clerics. So it is not unreasonable to ask, “Does the game really need third type of magic?”
The answer is no, the game probably does not need a third type of magic. But the question is misinformed because psionics is not magic. Magic is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize the natural forces that infuse the game world that surround the characters…
Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being. His effort is focused inward rather that outward. He must be completely in touch with an aware of even the tiniest workings of his body and mind.”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 20:59:44
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2014/09/04 21:02:15
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Actually, if you read the article I posted, it does.
“Many people assume that psionics is just another type of magic - one wielded by wizards and the other by clerics. So it is not unreasonable to ask, “Does the game really need third type of magic?”
The answer is no, the game probably does not need a third type of magic. But the question is misinformed because psionics is not magic. Magic is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize the natural forces that infuse the game world that surround the characters…
Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being. His effort is focused inward rather that outward. He must be completely in touch with an aware of even the tiniest workings of his body and mind.”
'
I did read the article. And it does not explain the need for psionics in the setting. It explains the in-game rationalizations behind why this type of magic is not magic (functionally, yes it is magic) but it doesn't explain why a fantasy setting needs a new system of magic that is mechanically different than the magic system that is already in place. It is a different magic system, that lets you do the things that magic already lets you do, with a different name slapped on it. I'm talking about the role it plays in the setting. What's the difference between arcane magic and divine magic? None. They both are "magic" and let you have superpowers. The in-game rationalizations are irrelevant. They are both magic. Psionics is also magic. But it uses a different system, with different rules, with no real reason to. That's what I'm talking about. If they wanted a new magic system, they should have just made all magic work the same way as psionics.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/09/04 21:27:48
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Under that kind of idea, there's no reason to have anything other than one casting class since they all do magic and all magic should work the same. You can just reskin them for whatever in game rationalization you want.
As said in the article: Psionics, as a mechanic, was created to give DMs and players more options mechanically for what they wanted to do.
In my opinion, this is for the same reason that alternate character classes have been created: more options. Do we need a Barbarian class when we have a Fighter class and you can play a barbarian using the Fighter class? Nope, but I'm glad we have it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 21:29:19
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2014/09/04 21:28:57
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
I don't mind there being different kinds of magic myself, I actually am more bothered by the move of heal spells from arcane necromancy to divine necromancy than I am by the lore existence of psionics...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 21:29:45
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Bards are awesome. They can fill in for any of the four basic monster food groups (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) and with the right feats and the right player they can do some amazing things. Its also a great multiclassing class. Take a few levels in either fighter or rogue and then run bard for the rest of the way, and you can pull stunts that will make your GM cry (and you won't even need to use 3rd party books to do it with). I ran a bard/fighter in 3.5 for years and that character kicked so much butt that I still can't believe it.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/09/04 21:29:56
Subject: Re:D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I actually am more bothered by the move of heal spells from arcane necromancy to divine necromancy.
Healing spells started in Divine, iirc.
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2014/09/04 21:31:00
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I actually am more bothered by the move of heal spells from arcane necromancy to divine necromancy.
Healing spells started in Divine, iirc.
IIRC, necromancy used to have healing spells because it manipulated life force.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 21:31:07
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Bards are awesome. They can fill in for any of the four basic monster food groups (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) and with the right feats and the right player they can do some amazing things. Its also a great multiclassing class. Take a few levels in either fighter or rogue and then run bard for the rest of the way, and you can pull stunts that will make your GM cry (and you won't even need to use 3rd party books to do it with). I ran a bard/fighter in 3.5 for years and that character kicked so much butt that I still can't believe it.
Bards have always been pretty awesome, I completely agree.
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2014/09/04 21:31:59
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I don't mind there being different kinds of magic myself, I actually am more bothered by the move of heal spells from arcane necromancy to divine necromancy than I am by the lore existence of psionics...
Yeah, why did they move those spells? They were necro in 2e, which made sense. Then conjuration in 3.x which made less sense. Then I stopped paying attention to see where they wound up after that, because I won't touch 4e with an 11-foot pole with a halfling torch-bearer on the end of it.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/09/04 21:32:13
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I actually am more bothered by the move of heal spells from arcane necromancy to divine necromancy.
Healing spells started in Divine, iirc.
IIRC, necromancy used to have healing spells because it manipulated life force.
Sure, sure, I'm sure that was in some splat over the years, but healing originated from the divine source originally. You should be complaining about the loss of arcane healing, if anything. And I am okay with healing either not existing for arcane or being less effective than divine. They have roles for a reason.
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2014/09/04 21:32:33
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
I really need to get more in to powergaming, it feels like :/ it just usually doesn't interest me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: And I am okay with healing either not existing for arcane or being less effective than divine. They have roles for a reason.
Oh, I'd be okay with it being less effective than divine healing. I just wish it existed at all ,and that necromancy wasn't shoehorned in to "ERMAGERD WHADDAFUG EEEBUUULLLLLL!".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 21:33:40
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 21:36:01
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I just wish it existed at all ,and that necromancy wasn't shoehorned in to "ERMAGERD WHADDAFUG EEEBUUULLLLLL!".
But necromancy has traditionally been evil... For what, 30-40 years now? I understand wishing, but it's kind of the established trend.
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2014/09/04 21:38:27
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I just wish it existed at all ,and that necromancy wasn't shoehorned in to "ERMAGERD WHADDAFUG EEEBUUULLLLLL!".
But necromancy has traditionally been evil... For what, 30-40 years now? I understand wishing, but it's kind of the established trend.
I think you'll find that "tradition" is not a good argument with me
I'm one of the apparently small number of people who actually rather liked 4e, my only complaints were mostly about the non-combat rituals...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/04 21:39:39
Subject: D&D (Fifth Edition): Basic Rules Free PDF (link in OP)
Melissia wrote: I just wish it existed at all ,and that necromancy wasn't shoehorned in to "ERMAGERD WHADDAFUG EEEBUUULLLLLL!".
But necromancy has traditionally been evil... For what, 30-40 years now? I understand wishing, but it's kind of the established trend.
With good reason. There is something about death and the dead that resonates pretty deeply with people. Especially in our cultural context it seems like the dead and their remains are something to be respected and left alone. It's a lot easier to make channeling death, manipulating the dead, draining life "Feel right" in an evil role than a good one.
I think with the right setting, strong world building and the right themes and tone, you can make it work in other ways. However it's enough of a challenge I think it's probably the right move to have Necromancy (or at least the deathy/poisony/zombie-y bits of it), evil by default.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 21:46:45
!
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
