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2013/12/20 21:08:46
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
I also wonder about the caliber of the CCW carriers pistol... to hit a bad guy 5 times and NOT kill him?? I hope he had a .22 or something small like that... I mean, only way I can see a .40 or .45 doing that is if you winged the guy 5 times.
I saw the above statement in another thread, and immediately thought of this video. I've posted it here in the OT forum before in a thread which I can't remember now, but I though more information for BOTH sides of the debate is only a good thing. I just want to help dispell the myth that any gunshot wound will stop the target immediately, and kill them within seconds, while also highlighting the importance of practice and repetition if a person decides to accept the responsibility of carrying a firearm.
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2013/12/20 21:19:07
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Thanks for that video, enjoyed watching it! It's always nice to see real-world experience over a significant number of cases instead of subjective standalone cases or theoretical number games.
I was especially amazed by how sturdy the human body is when it comes to handgun caliber injuries. That skin (!) can be compared to 4 inches of muscle when it comes to bullet resistance is pretty amazing on its own, I think. When you add the fact that this one guy's sternum stopped a .40 JHP (I think) dead in its tracks before it could reach vital organs and blood vessels...you really see that humans aren't the weak meatbags they sometimes seem to be, especially in movies.
The absence of secondary cavity injuries in handgun wounds, probably due to low velocity, is also a factor that might often be overlooked. Fragmenting (he says fragmentating, what is the correct way?) rifle rounds ripping through tissue at enormous speed seem to make it much easier to actually inflict lethal wounds with rifles compared to even higher powered handguns.
So, yes, interesting video!
2013/12/20 23:12:37
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
and (probably most important) the level and speed of medical care available afterwards
As well a pain threshold, pain tolerance, adrenaline, etc
That has nothing to do with death, and but a little more to do with immediate incapacitation. Immediate incapacitation occurs physiologically from a central nervous system hit, nothing more. Anything else is going to be a psychological - "I've been shot, I should fall down," - response.
2013/12/20 23:18:16
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
People can be absolutely shredded and still live (there have been casualties who suffered 4 traumatic amputations and 'survived'), I have seen some really mangled guys survive.
In a modern military setting you basically need to be killed instantly or you will have a good chance of survival, almost irrespective of your wounds.
If there isn't a good level of trauma care then the real danger is bleeding to death, especially with a chest or abdominal wound.
Just any gunshot won't kill a target but it is highly likely to stop the target, afterall you don't need to kill someone,or even hit them, to scare them off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 01:19:55
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2013/12/20 23:24:31
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Palindrome wrote: People can be absolutely shredded and still live (there have been casualties who suffered 4 traumatic amputations and 'survived'), I have seen some really mangled guys survive.
In a modern military setting you basically need to be killed instantly or you will have a good chance of survival, almost irrespective of your wounds.
If there isn't a good level of trauma care then the real danger is bleeding to death, especially with a chest or abdominal wound.
Just any gunshot won't kill a target but it is highly likely to stop the target, afterall you don't need to kill someone,or even hit them, to scare them off.
Then there are some people who just don't give a feth and live anyway:
And yeah, since it was my post that was quoted in the OP, that comment was more on the guy's aim than anything else.
And I think that it may be fairly easy to see how often a gunshot "merely" wounds vs. kills via some crime statistics? Not sure exactly how those sorts of records would be kept.
Ohh, and just a friendly reminder folks: .45 ACP not only kills your body, it kills your soul
2013/12/21 02:53:25
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Palindrome wrote: People can be absolutely shredded and still live (there have been casualties who suffered 4 traumatic amputations and 'survived'), I have seen some really mangled guys survive.
In a modern military setting you basically need to be killed instantly or you will have a good chance of survival, almost irrespective of your wounds.
If there isn't a good level of trauma care then the real danger is bleeding to death, especially with a chest or abdominal wound.
Just any gunshot won't kill a target but it is highly likely to stop the target, afterall you don't need to kill someone,or even hit them, to scare them off.
Then there are some people who just don't give a feth and live anyway:
Palindrome wrote: People can be absolutely shredded and still live (there have been casualties who suffered 4 traumatic amputations and 'survived'), I have seen some really mangled guys survive.
In a modern military setting you basically need to be killed instantly or you will have a good chance of survival, almost irrespective of your wounds.
If there isn't a good level of trauma care then the real danger is bleeding to death, especially with a chest or abdominal wound.
Just any gunshot won't kill a target but it is highly likely to stop the target, afterall you don't need to kill someone,or even hit them, to scare them off.
Then there are some people who just don't give a feth and live anyway:
And yeah, since it was my post that was quoted in the OP, that comment was more on the guy's aim than anything else.
And I think that it may be fairly easy to see how often a gunshot "merely" wounds vs. kills via some crime statistics? Not sure exactly how those sorts of records would be kept.
Ohh, and just a friendly reminder folks: .45 ACP not only kills your body, it kills your soul
A fan of Colion Noir I take it?
2013/12/21 03:20:42
Subject: Re:Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
It all comes down to how quickly they get medical care. My wife worked as a surgeon in a trauma center in Cleveland. She says that if you get them treatment fast enough very few people actually die except from kill shots to the brain. She even saved a guy by pulling a bullet out of his heart.
Even with high caliber weapons and explosives studies have shown its all about time to treatment. You might still be messed up, but you will be alive.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2013/12/21 03:40:57
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Well, regardless of caliber, in my opinion, shot placement is the most important thing to stopping someone.
After that I think ammunition type is more important that caliber instead. I imagine a 9mm +P JHP would deliver more hydrostatic shock than a .45 ACP with ball ammo.
I found an article here that might answer your questions.
The objective of this study was to describe the differences in the lethality of firearm-related injuries in selected demographic subgroups and to characterize the lethality of firearm-related injuries by intent of injury and the part of the body where the gunshot wound was located. Death data from the National Vital Statistics System and data on nonfatal injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency departments from the National Electronic Injury Surveillance System for the period 1992 through 1995 were analyzed. Each year during the study period, about 132,687 persons sustained gunshot wounds that resulted in death or treatment in an emergency department, and overall, 31.7% of those who sustained gunshot wounds died. Persons shot in the head were 3.3 times as likely to die as those shot in other parts of the body; for assaults, the fatality rate was 1.5 times higher for whites than blacks and 1.4 times higher for males than females whereas for intentionally self-inflicted injuries, the death rate was 1.1 times higher for males than females. According to the authors, the high lethality of firearm-related injuries relative to other major causes of injury underscores the need to continue prevention efforts and efforts to improve access to care and treatment to reduce the number and increase survivability of firearm-related injuries
• Of those who died from their wounds, only 30% made it to the ER for treatment, the other 70% were not alive long enough to be transported.
• Of the total number of patients with GSWs who survived, 43% were treated in the ER and then released, 52% were treated and held at the hospital, and 6% were treated and transferred to an acute care facility.
• Of those shot in an assault, the overall mortality rate was 20%
• Of those shot in the head in an assault, the mortality rate was 40%.
• Of those shot anywhere other than the head in an assault, the mortality rate was 16%.
What these data mean to me:
a. If you are shot you have an 80% chance to survive.
b. If you are gonna die, you are probably gonna die on-scene.
c. If you make it to the ER alive there is a good chance (43%) you'll even sleep in your own bed that night.
d. Head shots appear to have more than twice the lethality of non-head shots.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/21 03:50:33
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/12/21 03:42:24
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Andrew1975 wrote: Even with high caliber weapons and explosives studies have shown its all about time to treatment. You might still be messed up, but you will be alive.
If you watch the video, high calibre weapons aren't what cause the massive damage. It's rifle shots. Apparently pistols might just as well be squirt guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 04:05:17
2013/12/21 04:53:49
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Andrew1975 wrote: Even with high caliber weapons and explosives studies have shown its all about time to treatment. You might still be messed up, but you will be alive.
If you watch the video, high calibre weapons aren't what cause the massive damage. It's rifle shots. Apparently pistols might just as well be squirt guns.
Also if you watch the video, high calibre rounds are more lethal (even handguns) simply because they have a better chance to damage critical organ structures simply due to projectile size.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 05:18:17
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2013/12/21 05:45:00
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Andrew1975 wrote: Even with high caliber weapons and explosives studies have shown its all about time to treatment. You might still be messed up, but you will be alive.
If you watch the video, high calibre weapons aren't what cause the massive damage. It's rifle shots. Apparently pistols might just as well be squirt guns.
Also if you watch the video, high calibre rounds are more lethal (even handguns) simply because they have a better chance to damage critical organ structures simply due to projectile size.
It actually has more to do with the velocity of the round. Velocity actually causes much more damage than caliber. Mass x velocity squared and all.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2013/12/21 09:50:40
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Ouze wrote: I imagine a 9mm +P JHP would deliver more hydrostatic shock than a .45 ACP with ball ammo.
No. Do not ever discuss "hydrostatic shock" when dealing with pistol rounds. Your 1600ft/s round will not be causing it.
Oh god here we go /popcorn
Edit: Not saying you're wrong Seaward, I just predict a debate
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 10:00:53
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2034/10/21 10:07:19
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Andrew1975 wrote: Even with high caliber weapons and explosives studies have shown its all about time to treatment. You might still be messed up, but you will be alive.
If you watch the video, high calibre weapons aren't what cause the massive damage. It's rifle shots. Apparently pistols might just as well be squirt guns.
Also if you watch the video, high calibre rounds are more lethal (even handguns) simply because they have a better chance to damage critical organ structures simply due to projectile size.
It actually has more to do with the velocity of the round. Velocity actually causes much more damage than caliber. Mass x velocity squared and all.
Less velocity is actually better. Over-penetration is a significant problem with rifle rounds and intermediate cartridges. Depends on who you are blasting as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 10:08:47
"You are judged in life, not by the evil you destroy, but by the light you bring to the darkness" - Reclusiarch Grimaldus of the Black Templars
2013/12/21 10:33:14
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Andrew1975 wrote: Even with high caliber weapons and explosives studies have shown its all about time to treatment. You might still be messed up, but you will be alive.
If you watch the video, high calibre weapons aren't what cause the massive damage. It's rifle shots. Apparently pistols might just as well be squirt guns.
Also if you watch the video, high calibre rounds are more lethal (even handguns) simply because they have a better chance to damage critical organ structures simply due to projectile size.
It actually has more to do with the velocity of the round. Velocity actually causes much more damage than caliber. Mass x velocity squared and all.
Less velocity is actually better. Over-penetration is a significant problem with rifle rounds and intermediate cartridges. Depends on who you are blasting as well.
The ballistic gel tests and the doctor's comments seem to implicate that overpenetration is only a problem for the guy behind the target. The target itself gets fragged up pretty good thanks to the high velocity of the round.
2013/12/21 10:53:02
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
I remember passages in "Black Hawk Down" (the book) where the riflemen regret the loss of the 7.62mm round, because they see opponents getting hit with 5.56mm bullets and scrambling away apparently not seriously hurt. Of course there is a very good chance those victims scrambled away and died out of sight.
There are some good studies from South Africa on bullet wounding in victims who presented to hospitals.
Kilkrazy wrote: IThere are some good studies from South Africa on bullet wounding in victims who presented to hospitals.
I was reading some of those earlier this evening. I must say that between the video and those I had a lot of misconceptions about how likely you are to actually due from being shot with a handgun.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/12/21 11:13:10
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Kilkrazy wrote: I remember passages in "Black Hawk Down" (the book) where the riflemen regret the loss of the 7.62mm round, because they see opponents getting hit with 5.56mm bullets and scrambling away apparently not seriously hurt. Of course there is a very good chance those victims scrambled away and died out of sight.
There are some good studies from South Africa on bullet wounding in victims who presented to hospitals.
There has been a lot of complaining about the ability of the .223's ability to stop a man. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that says it doesn't, there is a lot of scientific evidence that says it has great stopping power. It's an argument that'll never be done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 11:14:52
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/12/21 11:13:58
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Kilkrazy wrote: I remember passages in "Black Hawk Down" (the book) where the riflemen regret the loss of the 7.62mm round, because they see opponents getting hit with 5.56mm bullets and scrambling away apparently not seriously hurt.
That is the point, or at least one of the points, to the introduction of the 5.56 round, its designed to wound rather than kill as this is reckoned to remove a lot more manpower due to casualty extraction, medical requirements etc. I don't know how true this actually is but it is 'common knowledge' within the medical services.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/21 11:22:28
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2013/12/21 11:43:54
Subject: Just how often do gunshots result in death, and why?
Kilkrazy wrote: I remember passages in "Black Hawk Down" (the book) where the riflemen regret the loss of the 7.62mm round, because they see opponents getting hit with 5.56mm bullets and scrambling away apparently not seriously hurt.
That is the point, or at least one of the points, to the introduction of the 5.56 round, its designed to wound rather than kill as this is reckoned to remove a lot more manpower due to casualty extraction, medical requirements etc. I don't know how true this actually is but it is 'common knowledge' within the medical services.
It takes two guys to pull a wounded man from the battle. Wounding one person neutralizes three. Killing one person neutralizes one.
