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 Coldhatred wrote:

Just think if they spent the time and did a really quality commercial akin to some of the fantastic video game ones that are on these days. Alas.

Do you know how much some of "the fantastic video game" commercials are out there cost?

The cinematic ones for Mass Effect 3 were clocking in at around $100k from what I've been told.

The cost of the advertisement as an isolated fact is utterly irrelevant.

Good quality, well targeted advertising is like a good accountant, the use of which should be a net gain to the bottom line, regardless of the actual cost of the services.

Unfortunately the impact of advertising can be hard to assess (although with the rise of social media and other very specific forms, it is a lot easier) in comparison to something like an accountant, and GW doesn't seem to be interested in pursuing anything that doesn't bring an immediate and tangible financial benefit (ie anything that isn't a cost reduction or price rise)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No you are not. Fantasy is an awesome game. I must say I prefer it over 40k gameplay wise and for it's superior balance.
The game is not dying at all. In fact, it is almost as popular in the place I live as 40k is. Games like Warmachine on the other hand, well, I have never even seen even a single warmachine player in my entire life
It really comes down to your local area.

40k is more popular in general, which I think is due to it being more 'unique'. There are plenty of similar fantasy universes around in games, movies, books and whatever, but 40k's style and fluff is much more distinctive.

I agree with this 100%. There are just as many fantasy players in my area as there are for 40k. It just seems like they tend to play larger, longer games, so their planning for game-time is more deliberate and not on the spot.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Well, aesthetics are obviously objective, but I gotta say, I just don't dig Mantics skellies. Sure the proportions are right. However, to my eye they look like cheapo plastic skeletons someone would put up as Halloween decorations, complete with drapey cloth, "boo!" poses, and evil, slanted eye sockets. The Mantic Ghouls and Zombies are pretty killer, though.

I should start a poll to see which people prefer, since the subject of Mantic vs. GW skeletons comes up really often.

~Tim?

Just make sure to put in options for 'Both are good!' and 'X is better, but both are good!' as well as 'I hate both! Give me X!'

Me... I have some of Bob Naismith's old GW skeletons and some of his equally old Grenadier skeletons - he has always done the evil slanted eyes.

I prefer Mantic, and do not like the GW skeletons all that much. (The above mentioned big head and hands....)

Mantic Ghouls vs. the current GW ghouls is no contest for me - I really like the feral look of the Mantic ghouls.

But the older GW ghouls vs. the Mantic ghouls... ... ... I use both, but for different purposes. (The Mantic ghouls actually see more use in my tabletop Fallout game.) So even on that.

The best ghouls are the ones by Heresy, nasty, stinking, crusted things.

Back on topic.... I might as well mention that there are some decent PDF miniatures out there, which can be used to at least test both WHFB and KoW. Easier with KoW, since the rules are free, but odds are that if you are interested in trying WHFB then you know somebody that can loan you the rules, if not the army lists.

One thing that would help WHFB immensely is to include a simplified list for all their armies in the main rules - so people can at least try things out before making a dive into what could be an empty pool. The did, once or twice upon a time, but it has been a while. (like a decade and more.)

The Auld Grump, ack! girlfriend calling name! Must flee keyboard!

 Coldhatred wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
This one is more recent.




Did a bit of digging, and according to Warseer, it's legit.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?219353-Games-Workshop-TV-ad

Just think if they spent the time and did a really quality commercial akin to some of the fantastic video game ones that are on these days. Alas.

doesn't seem realistic. the girls arnt shuddering while quickly moving towards the nearest exit.

thelordcal wrote:
Warmahordes conversions and counts as are outright forbidden plus, change your casters and you might end up with a completely different list that focuses on different aspects of the army resulting in someone having to buy almost the entire range.

Except for the part about counts as, this isn't really true. Conversions are legion in the WM/H scene, as is apparent at pretty much any major event. I don't think there is an unconverted Nyss Hunters unit in my entire meta, since their original heads (and occasionally other body parts) seem to be quite unpopular. And while some casters work better with different parts of the range, there are also several that take your existing army and make it do something different with the same models.

Hi all,
In my previous post I meant to say if you offer a gamer a chance to play a new rule set that has NO COST to them to try, other than arrange a couple of hours to play the new game.
Then most gamers would give it a go.

Its only when they have been influenced to such an extent by GWs' Warhammer games , they think ALL rules are over complicated and take ages to learn, or that you HAVE to spend £/$100s on new minatures before playing a game.

(GW cultivate this idea because the large investment required to actually get to play a full game of 40k/WHFB takes so much effort.A lot of people feel they 'HAVE to stick with it' to get their value for money out of it.)

I have been lucky in the fact ALL the LFGS and clubs I have been to ,play a wide range of games that are fun to play.We simply find rule sets we enjoy and use minatures we like the look of.I understand this is not an option for those playing in a GW store.
There are some games I dont like the game play of , no matter how well the rule are written.(I do not like 'over complicated games ' it is probably an age thing being an older gamer.)

But i think its only fair to give new rules a try to see if you like them.

Hey all,

So, I have a few questions. I stumbled into this discussion because I reclaimed my High Elf army that had been in storage on another continent since the last time I played around 1999/2000. I've already gotten back into 40k, and want to know whether it would be worth it to try and double my addiction with Fantasy or should I just sell the HE stuff and invest more in my IG.

1.) First, I don't remember the exact points but I think I have about 1500-1850 points worth of Elves during whatever edition I was using back then. How much have the point values changed (i.e. how much more do I have to invest to have about the same amount of points now?)?

2.) Would those late 90's models still be worth anything to gamers?

3.) Probably covered in another discussion, but whatever happened to Dogs of War? Any whispers that GW is bringing them back? Have some DoW and really like them.

4.) What is the general opinion of High Elves these days? Cool, competitive army? Silly pansies?

1.) First, I don't remember the exact points but I think I have about 1500-1850 points worth of Elves during whatever edition I was using back then. How much have the point values changed (i.e. how much more do I have to invest to have about the same amount of points now?)?

Not much I would have thought - High Elf Spears are a couple of points cheaper now and Repeater Bolt Throwers are about 20% cheaper IIRC

2.) Would those late 90's models still be worth anything to gamers?

Are we talking metals? I think a collector would be interested if they are unpainted.

3.) Probably covered in another discussion, but whatever happened to Dogs of War? Any whispers that GW is bringing them back? Have some DoW and really like them.

Nothing concrete, although some kind of allies are expected come 9th edition and DoW type regiments may be made available via 40K type datasheets.

4.) What is the general opinion of High Elves these days? Cool, competitive army? Silly pansies?

Reasonably competitive army if you take the right stuff. Glass cannon is how most people describe them.

Noir wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)

To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.

BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...

Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.

Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.

Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.

Ummm.... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started

EXACTLY. You just illustrated my point. You need to "make a day of it". Very rare is the group into which you can walk with a new game and get everyone to play. You'll normally have to arrange a date and time and hope people turn up. Like someone who posted soon after you said, he tried pushing a new game and it didn't work. You might not get anyone who wants to play anyway.

TheNightWillEnd wrote:Hey all,

So, I have a few questions. I stumbled into this discussion because I reclaimed my High Elf army that had been in storage on another continent since the last time I played around 1999/2000. I've already gotten back into 40k, and want to know whether it would be worth it to try and double my addiction with Fantasy or should I just sell the HE stuff and invest more in my IG.

1.) First, I don't remember the exact points but I think I have about 1500-1850 points worth of Elves during whatever edition I was using back then. How much have the point values changed (i.e. how much more do I have to invest to have about the same amount of points now?)?

2.) Would those late 90's models still be worth anything to gamers?

3.) Probably covered in another discussion, but whatever happened to Dogs of War? Any whispers that GW is bringing them back? Have some DoW and really like them.

4.) What is the general opinion of High Elves these days? Cool, competitive army? Silly pansies?

1) I'd barely started school in 1999/2000 so I can't really compare what the points values are like now to what they were like then. In the new book this time around, points values did go down overall though. A normal sized game is anywhere between 2000-3000pts.

2) Depends what you mean by "worth". I think people will probably prefer the newer models on the whole but older armies sell cheaper, so you tend to get a lot of interest from buyers who just want the figures to use in games. I've seen old models go for quite a lot on eBay, depending on what they are.

3) I think it's gone, never to return, sadly. The new expansion, Triumph and Treachery, does allow you to use mercenaries - as in models from other armies - in games, so you could incorporate your Dogs of War there.

4) High Elves are a good, top-tier army, and they have plenty of viable builds and great potential for some awesome themed, very unique lists. The "silly pansies" is always going to follow HE around and it doesn't help that, if a woman gets into Fantasy, chances are she's picked HE, so some people may rib you about that. You just have to wipe the smile of their face on the battlefield

The Shadow wrote:

Noir wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)

To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.

BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...

Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.

Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.

Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.

Ummm.... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started

EXACTLY. You just illustrated my point. You need to "make a day of it". Very rare is the group into which you can walk with a new game and get everyone to play. You'll normally have to arrange a date and time and hope people turn up. Like someone who posted soon after you said, he tried pushing a new game and it didn't work. You might not get anyone who wants to play anyway.

privateer4hire wrote:Noir, That works great in some places but others simply will not change.

I worked one game store for 3-4 months solid demoing 'the new game' without success. In another place, I demoed 'the new game' for a couple of months and we had half a dozen regular players pretty quickly.

You're absolutely right that once upon a time, if it wasn't GW then everyone gave you the look. Nowadays, if it isn't GW or PP, then everyone gives you the look. The market is changing but it's taken over 10 years for PP to build up their presence to what it is now.

You mean like the guy I qouted with you, notice the part where he tried. That the biggest thing, have you tried? I'm mean really tried like him? Or you know offer to demo once them quickly drop it becouse you didn't want to rock the boat, and have people look at you funny? But, no I might have to spend hours in a game store talking with my friends while I wait. Why would I want to do what most of us do anyways and hangout.

I'd actually like to just toss in there that after watching a few batreps and perusing the rules and codices, it doesn't seem like Fantasy has an especially higher model count than 40k, contrary to the primary complaint in this discussion.

Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.

Just sayin'

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I'd actually like to just toss in there that after watching a few batreps and perusing the rules and codices, it doesn't seem like Fantasy has an especially higher model count than 40k, contrary to the primary complaint in this discussion.

Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.

Just sayin'

In previous editions, at least, it very much did have a higher model count - with one unit of an army containing as many models as an entire small army in WH40K.

A unit five men wide by six ranks deep contains thirty models.... That is the same number of models as three full Tactical Squads. And both Skaven and Goblin units are often larger....

Mind you, Imperial Guard and Orks also have larger numbers of models than Space Marines.

So, yeah - the model count was much higher, and may well still be higher, though I gather that the model count in the most recent WH40K is greater than previous editions - but I did not bother with either the most recent edition or the one preceding it. (Not likely to, either, nor did I go very far with the most recent WHFB - it just did not interest me.)

The Auld Grump

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I'd actually like to just toss in there that after watching a few batreps and perusing the rules and codices, it doesn't seem like Fantasy has an especially higher model count than 40k, contrary to the primary complaint in this discussion.

Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.

Just sayin'

Different data point: Chaos Daemons in the previous editions. Once I had enough models to play WHFB, I had more than enough daemon models to field two independent 40k armies at the same time.

Unit fillers, empty bases, and admitting that the models in the middle that you need forty of to get the bonus rank or negate someone else's bonus rank are strikes against playing WHFB. Because they amount to "The models for this game are so amazingly expensive that they'll force you to figure out ways to avoid buying them."

The problem with fantasy is the cost and time. look at what you are comparing it to:

New fantasy army: $500-$1000, plus 100 hours of modeling before you can play a half a dozen people on the regular.

Console/Computer: $500-$1000 for the brains and some subscriptions/internet: You can connect to the world and play a ton of different games (many of which involve controlling huge fantasy armies) AND watch movies or tv, or 'casts... or anything else on the internet.

The reason that fantasy has died faster than 40k IMO is because of the maintenance cost. Rather than just needing one new box for a unit, you need 4-5 to have a competitive unit. its very common for a fantasy box to be $40 for 10 guys, and accordingly for a single unit to be $150-$200 american. Also points costs have decreased, and unit sizes have increased, so even completed units have to be invested in... after a while it just becomes to much.

Most things have already been mentioned. Another for me is GW seems to have abandoned fantasy at this point. Most of the armies I like the look of are really old and they look like it. Add to that GW's mo of late to drop anything and everything that doesn't make enough money has me seriously reconsidering even bothering to get into fantasy at this stage. Probably better to invest in another war game once my space marines are done.

Comp

In my area, the back to back of the last two editions killed the game. 7th ruined it for most veterans, who went to playing a 40k that was in full swing and working half decently well at the time....they stuck with it through and into 6th and when 8th came out they didn't bother going back in because they now had two 40k armies for the cost of what they sold their Fantasy armies for....

....couple that with the astronomical prices to build a respectable 8th Edition Fantasy army which removes most new players from buying in....game dies.

Effectively, for those that remember, Fantasy went the way of Warzone 2nd Ed

Noir wrote:
You mean like the guy I qouted with you, notice the part where he tried. That the biggest thing, have you tried? I'm mean really tried like him? Or you know offer to demo once them quickly drop it becouse you didn't want to rock the boat, and have people look at you funny? But, no I might have to spend hours in a game store talking with my friends while I wait. Why would I want to do what most of us do anyways and hangout.

I haven't tried, no, because, as you may have guessed, I'm quite happy playing WHFB. One guy has managed to implement Malifaux into our group, but it's taken him about a year to get three other players and for the first few months he'd reluctantly box his Malifaux away and take out his Necrons. Our group alternates days that we meet on (Tuesdays one week, Wednesdays the next and so on) and because of that a lot of people, due to work and other commitments, can only get in once a fortnight. Then something crops up and they can only make it once that month. These guys don't want to risk spending their only hobby night of the month trying something they might not enjoy. They'd rather spend the time playing something they know they enjoy (which will be either WHFB, 40k or Warmachine in our group).

Everyone else was much the same. They didn't say "no I don't want to play Malifaux ever!" they said "sorry, I'd rather have a game of 40k" or something like that. That's the issue, I'm sure KoW, Malifaux and all the others are great games, but I have my own games which I enjoy for the reasons I've already stated. Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.

@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)

All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)

If you are happy with WHFB , fair enough.

However, I really can not understand not trying out a rule set that is only going to cost you a couple of hours gaming time.(Free rules and you can use your existing minatures.)
If it is not to you taste fair enough. (Some people prefer strategic complication, to tactical complexity.)

But if you like the KoW rules, it it is another way to enjoy your hobby.

 The Shadow wrote:
Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.

You don't have to buy new minis to play KOW. Just download the rules, the rulebooks, and use your minis.

The core army lists cover pretty much all the classic fantasy factions : good elves, bad mean elves, orcs, dwarves, humans, undeads... And the community has build very nice and widely accepted army lists for the more WHFB-specific factions like the lizardmen or the skavens.

The rules are pretty synthetic.

 Okottekoneko wrote:
i have to ask, WHAT HAPPENED?

if the game was so great why is it dying?

40k has always worked pretty nicely in the US. Probably that "pew pew pew" culture we don't have here.

WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far. The fantasy lore, although not as specific as 40k's lore, has its merits.

All in all, WHFB needs more time, energy and money than 40k.

Noir wrote:

Umm... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY is a cope out plan and simple. I never meet a PP press ganger, wonder how that got a following, ahh... yes a guy that liked the game demoed week after week. Same thing that got them playing some new game over the past few years. So the idea of how to get people to play has stayed the same and even works. You just don't walk away the first time you fail, unless you don't care in the first place.

The Shadow wrote:
I haven't tried, no, because, as you may have guessed, I'm quite happy playing WHFB. One guy has managed to implement Malifaux into our group, but it's taken him about a year to get three other players and for the first few months he'd reluctantly box his Malifaux away and take out his Necrons. Our group alternates days that we meet on (Tuesdays one week, Wednesdays the next and so on) and because of that a lot of people, due to work and other commitments, can only get in once a fortnight. Then something crops up and they can only make it once that month. These guys don't want to risk spending their only hobby night of the month trying something they might not enjoy. They'd rather spend the time playing something they know they enjoy (which will be either WHFB, 40k or Warmachine in our group).

Everyone else was much the same. They didn't say "no I don't want to play Malifaux ever!" they said "sorry, I'd rather have a game of 40k" or something like that. That's the issue, I'm sure KoW, Malifaux and all the others are great games, but I have my own games which I enjoy for the reasons I've already stated. Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.

So, now you say it can work if you put the time in, but you just don't care that much to do it . Just like I put in my first post in this thread (qouted it here for you. So ummm... what was the point of all your posts again?

xxvaderxx wrote:
Nothing wrong with fantasy, 8th is by far and large the best edition to date.

People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.

carmachu wrote:
People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.

I would say though that 8th edition purely in terms of rules is kinda a take of leave it for most people. Either they like it saying its the best edition so far or hate it and more than likely quit the game. That has been my experience reading most warhammer fantasy threads on dakka and other sites.

Noir wrote:

Noir wrote:

Umm... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY is a cope out plan and simple. I never meet a PP press ganger, wonder how that got a following, ahh... yes a guy that liked the game demoed week after week. Same thing that got them playing some new game over the past few years. So the idea of how to get people to play has stayed the same and even works. You just don't walk away the first time you fail, unless you don't care in the first place.

The Shadow wrote:
I haven't tried, no, because, as you may have guessed, I'm quite happy playing WHFB. One guy has managed to implement Malifaux into our group, but it's taken him about a year to get three other players and for the first few months he'd reluctantly box his Malifaux away and take out his Necrons. Our group alternates days that we meet on (Tuesdays one week, Wednesdays the next and so on) and because of that a lot of people, due to work and other commitments, can only get in once a fortnight. Then something crops up and they can only make it once that month. These guys don't want to risk spending their only hobby night of the month trying something they might not enjoy. They'd rather spend the time playing something they know they enjoy (which will be either WHFB, 40k or Warmachine in our group).

Everyone else was much the same. They didn't say "no I don't want to play Malifaux ever!" they said "sorry, I'd rather have a game of 40k" or something like that. That's the issue, I'm sure KoW, Malifaux and all the others are great games, but I have my own games which I enjoy for the reasons I've already stated. Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.

So, now you say it can work if you put the time in, but you just don't care that much to do it . Just like I put in my first post in this thread (qouted it here for you. So ummm... what was the point of all your posts again?

Yes, it can work if you put the time in, organise a time and a place, get people to sign up to come etc etc. I'm not denying that, but that's not the point. The point is that someone - I think it was you, I can't really remember - said that "oh you can just bring in the rules and people will try it out". I disagreed with that, and put forward my reasons, which can be seen in my posts above.

Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)

All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)

Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.

 The Shadow wrote:

Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)

All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)

Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.

Warriors of Chaos and Daemons are both present - the direct WoC equivalent showed up in The Basilean Legacy, an abyss worshiping human army.

Daemons are also in the game, and can be found under several of the Abyss worshiping armies - Twilight Kin and Abyssal Dwarfs for a start, since they are in the main rulebook, and are free in the online army lists.

The lists are closer to older WHFB Chaos armies - the Abyssals are not the main forces of an army, at least if you want war machines and heroes. (You can get one hero and one warmachine for each Solid Unit, Abyssals do not count as 'Solid Units' .)

Using them would not even be using proxies - Mantic themselves allow the use of miniatures by other manufacturers, and go so far as to show some of those armies in their rulebook.

Lizardmen are harder - at the moment. I suspect that there will be something akin to them, but not for a couple of years. But, in the wilds of the interweb (also known as Warseer), there is a homebrew list, but nothing official, as of yet.

I've tried the list (or, more accurately, have played against the list), and it seems workable, if a trifle over powered at the moment.

There is another list here - but I have not yet played against it. (There is also a third list, somewhere, but the link that I had for it is dead.)

The Beastmen would in fact have to be proxies - I would use them as Orcs, since those stat the closest. I have not found a conversion for them yet.

There is an entire list of converted GW army lists in the Wikipedia article on Kings of War.

The Auld Grump

 Blood Hawk wrote:

carmachu wrote:
People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.

I would say though that 8th edition purely in terms of rules is kinda a take of leave it for most people. Either they like it saying its the best edition so far or hate it and more than likely quit the game. That has been my experience reading most warhammer fantasy threads on dakka and other sites.

This. My FLGS saw an explosion in players. We went from have a league with 12 players before 8th to 30 players after with a lot of new blood. But for those that hated the random charge range, they were gone. They had been use to the 1/8th inch precision required for 6th/7th. With that gone, they didn't want to adapt.

But the game did suffer with GW providing zero support release for nine months before releasing the first army book. In that time, a lot of people who were turned off by 8th had started playing other games and by the time new army books finally started coming, they had moved on and weren't interested in the game anymore. That delay did more damage to the game then the rules or miniature prices.

As for some of the comments people are tossing out, have to address some misconceptions.
1. GW raised point level of the armies. The only GW tournament during 8th is the throne of skulls tournaments and those are 2000 points. Army points were driven up to 2500 by players suddenly not able to field their greater demons anymore or players not wanting to have to choose between a wizard lord or fighting lord. Those players wanted to field everything and didn't want to make hard choices. My play group dropped from 7th's 2250 down to 2200 and was enjoying things. Point levels didn't shoot up till we were seeing all the tournaments were playing with 2500 that point levels started to creep up as people prepared for tournaments.
2. Cav is dead. The five man cav unit is dead. Players whose only tactic was to run 5 knights into the front of a unit, kill the front rank and run them down got pissed because their "tactic" for the last two editions didn't work anymore. I still see plenty of Black Knights, Empire Knights, and Silver Helms units running around. They are deeper and rely on their high armor save to ground down the big blocks.
3. You can't get into the game for less than $500. Ogres were a hugely popular army because they were also cheap. You could field a full army for under $300 with the batallion box, a couple iron blasters, and three boxes of mournfang. You would have to convert the characters, but all the bits in those boxes made for better looking characters than the GW ones.
4. 8th forced people to field giant monsters. Uhhhhh... did you play 8th? Cannons killed monsters. Dragon riding lords disappeared and any monster that didn't have a +4 regen/ward save wasn't played because it was free points to anyone with artillery. It wasn't till WoC with combined Demon Prince with charmed shield and chimeras with regen that monsters started coming back.

I'm not a FB player, only briefly played when it would have been ~4th edition, so I'm not in any position to debate your points except with regard to No. 2....

What a horrible way to implement cavalry. As a self confessed cavalryman at heart in basically every game I play (I always favour fast, manoeuvrable, highly offensive units) that just comes across as wrong.

Cavalry should move fast, hit hard and ride down their target. As much as you seem to dislike how they operated in previous editions, it sounds like they were functionally closer to what they should be, not turning up in numbers and standing there to grind out a result.

Well, I had only the slightest inclination to start WHFB, and that one piece of information has extinguished that altogether!

 Litcheur wrote:
WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far.

I've always felt Fantasy was vastly superior as an actual game because the rules are far more self balancing, where as the 40k rules are inherently unbalancing. 40k is too much rock paper scissors. If you take too many rocks and your opponent takes too many scissors, good for you, if your opponent takes lots of paper, you're screwed.

Fantasy on the other hand, for the most part you could make a good army that could take on a variety of opponents and not be hamstrung against any of them, you don't so much tailor lists as you tailor tactics.

However, I haven't really played 8th edition all that much because I don't like the rule changes. They've made it less of a tactical game and more of a "push large piles of models toward enemy and roll a bunch of dice".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

However, I haven't really played 8th edition all that much because I don't like the rule changes. They've made it less of a tactical game and more of a "push large piles of models toward enemy and roll a bunch of dice".

It is not a "less tactical" game, it is a different tactical game. Flanking, redirecting, and delays are all still part of the game. How they are deployed is still active. Creating the matchups at the right time matters more this edition than last edition where whoever got the charge off normally won the combat. Deployment matters more this edition than last edition where forcing your opponent to deploy his key blocks before you do.

That you haven't played 8th and deride it is no better than the other posters in this thread that deride or dismiss other alternative games. And yes KoW is a fun game, though the characters are a bit too bland for my tastes and don't seem to impact the game at all.

As for "large piles", with the Dark Elf book, you're seeing MSU again with players bringing multiple 10 man witch elf units as sacrificial redirectors that inflict nasty damage on the charging unit and setting up a counter charge from your heavy hitting blocks.

@azreal13 So as a self confessed cavalryman, you would always run straight into the front of block pike units knowing that you always can beat them? Because that was what happening in the game in 6th and 7th. People stopped bringing block troops because of this. Cavalry are meant to serve as flanking units, not frontline combat units that charge into everything. In 8th a charge from a cav block will still break smaller units and monsters, but they stall against big blocks. They were an "I win" button last edition.