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I play and like both games.

Fantasy is less popular because the buy in and investment into the game is much higher than 40k (which is saying something, as, in relation to the competition, 40k has a fairly large buy-in investment cost to begin with).

While the comparisons are fairly relative, in many scenarios, it can cost 150-200% to build a same points value sized Fantasy army as compared to a 40k one.

I think new players find this daunting. It's the number one reason the guys at my local game store give as to why they can't drum up more interest in fantasy. It's *really* expensive.



Which is a shame, because it's a really fun game.

 chromedog wrote:
40k may outsell fantasy in my local area, but there are MORE fantasy players at the two clubs I frequent (I'll assume the 40k players all play at the local store - most of the fantasy players in my area - some of the podhammer crew included - are over 25 and prefer a beer with their mandollies).

I prefer 8th ed fantasy to 6th ed 40k.
I didn't play 4-7th ed fantasy - but I played RT-5th ed 40k.
40k just stopped being a game I wanted to play when 6th ed came around. When you have to resort to cheesy builds JUST to draw with the newer armies, then the concept of game balance has not just flown out the window, but it has also passed the cow on the way (this cow was on its way over the moon).

Bingo.

Same reason Im looking into fantasy currently, 40k and much of the crowd that plays it now a days are like ADHD kids on redbull with multiple sets of tambourines that get real upset over the word "No", a good majority of them don't even need dice anymore, Im convinced I could entertain them just as easily with some tinfoil and jingly keys. It's a sad state of affairs when Goobhammer takes over.

As for fantasy, the armies price out the same, but the model counts are insane, I stopped counting after 220 with a vampire counts army. It's going to be awhile before I get that up and running, let's just hope they don't add any more force org slots to 40k until then.

Aftermath. wrote:
In my area Fantasy is dead. I haven't seen a game played in over a year. 8th edition killed it.

In my area, 8th edition completely revitalized WHFB. Prior to that, stores in North Metro Atlanta might have 2-3 tournaments (combined) in a year, and each tournament might have 6-8 people show up. Even three years out from the advent of 8th, just my preferred FLGS alone will have 4-6 tournaments per year, and we typically have 20-odd show up for each.

I think the reason for the game being relatively successful here is because the store owner really supported it. He loved the game, built 3-4 armies, and would play lots of games himself. Having the game out and being played encouraged more people to start playing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.

I just wanted to point out that the bolded part hasn't really been true since the advent of 8th edition, supporting attacks, Horde formations, and Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry.

Saldiven wrote:

Aftermath. wrote:
In my area Fantasy is dead. I haven't seen a game played in over a year. 8th edition killed it.

In my area, 8th edition completely revitalized WHFB. Prior to that, stores in North Metro Atlanta might have 2-3 tournaments (combined) in a year, and each tournament might have 6-8 people show up. Even three years out from the advent of 8th, just my preferred FLGS alone will have 4-6 tournaments per year, and we typically have 20-odd show up for each.

I think the reason for the game being relatively successful here is because the store owner really supported it. He loved the game, built 3-4 armies, and would play lots of games himself. Having the game out and being played encouraged more people to start playing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.

I just wanted to point out that the bolded part hasn't really been true since the advent of 8th edition, supporting attacks, Horde formations, and Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry.

Yep. Saying that the soldiers in the back don't do anything is highly erroneous. They do a lot of important things, such as stopping the regiment from running away, and helping the guys in the front punch the other dudes.

If you want to go into Fantasy but don't like the price, buy models from 3rd party sources. I think this would be a great opportunity to point these out, and the great thing about this is you can also use the same models on different systems like say, KoW. Do take note that more often than not they will vary considerably with GW equivalents in terms of proportion and style, so you have to mix and match a bit or buy a whole army from that 3rd party source, Which is not bad considering I find most of them better than GW's offerings.

Perry Miniatures have a War of the Roses, late medieval plastic line. The Perry brothers also work with GW so if you'll notice the style is same-ish, only with realistic proportions and armor and less skulls. These miniatures could be used to represent Brettonia or The Empire and are truly works of art since you get a lot in a box in terms of bits, units and customization (more than GW ones in fact!) for more than half the price. The cavalry box is really good and I haven't seen a product as good as this, and for this price.... damn.
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62

Wargames Factory also sells several plastic models of historical minis. The Saxon and Vikings could be used as Chaos warriors or something, or maybe even Bretonnian/Empire peasants. They also have an Orc box (aesthetically i don't find them good but you might!) and a Skeleton Box if you want to go Vampire Counts or Tomb whatevers.
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/hammer-of-the-gods
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/myths-and-legends

Fireforge Games sell both infantry and cavalry of the middle medieval category. Again they work well as Bretonnian troops and cavalry as well as Empire, although i would lean more on Bretonnia. I can totally see myself building an entire Bretonnian army with Fireforge templar knights, and the added bonus of not having ridiculous helmets is icing on the gravy (and I sometimes confuse my popular sayings). They will be also releasing a Mongol Horde infantry, perfect for barbarians and such.
http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore.html

Mantic Games, the makers of Kings of War, is of course on the list. Their undead range is super top notch, followed closely by the Orc range so if you want to make Vampire Counts or an Orc army, you should totally consider Mantic for the whole army or as parts of the whole army. With the undead you can get away with all big blocks (zombies, skeletons) with Mantic and the heroes and such GW. With the Orcs, the style is too far for my own level of comfort but if it works for you, then it's okay.

They also have a Dwarf line, and they're okay-ish. I've heard bad things about the elf line but I've also heard that they would work if they are painted more as fae/fairy elves rather than LotR elves. The Basilea line offers units for human armies and... I wouldn't recommend them. Sculpts are too ugly, and you're better off buying from the previos 3rd party sources I mentioned.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html


Anyone else with other suggestions?

 heartserenade wrote:
If you want to go into Fantasy but don't like the price, buy models from 3rd party sources. I think this would be a great opportunity to point these out, and the great thing about this is you can also use the same models on different systems like say, KoW. Do take note that more often than not they will vary considerably with GW equivalents in terms of proportion and style, so you have to mix and match a bit or buy a whole army from that 3rd party source, Which is not bad considering I find most of them better than GW's offerings.

Perry Miniatures have a War of the Roses, late medieval plastic line. The Perry brothers also work with GW so if you'll notice the style is same-ish, only with realistic proportions and armor and less skulls. These miniatures could be used to represent Brettonia or The Empire and are truly works of art since you get a lot in a box in terms of bits, units and customization (more than GW ones in fact!) for more than half the price. The cavalry box is really good and I haven't seen a product as good as this, and for this price.... damn.
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62

Wargames Factory also sells several plastic models of historical minis. The Saxon and Vikings could be used as Chaos warriors or something, or maybe even Bretonnian/Empire peasants. They also have an Orc box (aesthetically i don't find them good but you might!) and a Skeleton Box if you want to go Vampire Counts or Tomb whatevers.
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/hammer-of-the-gods
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/myths-and-legends

Fireforge Games sell both infantry and cavalry of the middle medieval category. Again they work well as Bretonnian troops and cavalry as well as Empire, although i would lean more on Bretonnia. I can totally see myself building an entire Bretonnian army with Fireforge templar knights, and the added bonus of not having ridiculous helmets is icing on the gravy (and I sometimes confuse my popular sayings). They will be also releasing a Mongol Horde infantry, perfect for barbarians and such.
http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore.html

Mantic Games, the makers of Kings of War, is of course on the list. Their undead range is super top notch, followed closely by the Orc range so if you want to make Vampire Counts or an Orc army, you should totally consider Mantic for the whole army or as parts of the whole army. With the undead you can get away with all big blocks (zombies, skeletons) with Mantic and the heroes and such GW. With the Orcs, the style is too far for my own level of comfort but if it works for you, then it's okay.

They also have a Dwarf line, and they're okay-ish. I've heard bad things about the elf line but I've also heard that they would work if they are painted more as fae/fairy elves rather than LotR elves. The Basilea line offers units for human armies and... I wouldn't recommend them. Sculpts are too ugly, and you're better off buying from the previos 3rd party sources I mentioned.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html


Anyone else with other suggestions?

Ebay. Tons of WHFB stuff there.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.

It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).

The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.

The game is not balanced, its just random.

A game of WHFB can be summarised by: advance forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice for 2+ hours, whoever hits the right spell wins the game.

Since practically every army can do this, it gives the game a semblance of "balance"...

WHFB 8th edition was tailor made for kids that can't have a tactical thought to save their lives, hence the extreme randomness of everything and anything in the game (that later spread to 40k with 6th edition). If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).

As for cost; there are alternatives out there. Since GW doesn't support tournaments anymore (not that I'm a tournament player anyway), you don't have to worry about a GW model only policy so use 2nd party manufacturers. Mantic's a decent source but the model quality can be hit or miss; my Vampire Counts army is nearly entirely Mantic; I kind of like their Ogres too.

Ranking issues.
I go to the local crafts store and buy sheets of self-adhesive magnetized..paper? Measure, cut into roughly base-sized squares and place them on the bottoms of the bases then I buy flanged metal movement trays from this guy:
http://shogunminiatures.com/
Inexpensive movement trays and he cuts to order. He also says pre-magnetized bases.

Someone else mentioned dioramas. I've seen some truly beautiful unit-filler dioramas for horde units that make ranking up big units a dream and add to the overall atmosphere of the game while being extremely wallet friendly...something you can't do with 40k. Here's an example off of the internet:


The intent here is to use the diorama filler in the middle of the block and have is surrounded by actually minis. I've seen people incorporate counters ala hero-clicks to keep track of the unit's size as it loses troops.

So, that's money and ranking taken care of in one swoop. (Note, the above pic is even from GW's own website...which means I'll probably get a C&D any time now..)

Here's hoping 9th ed makes game sizes smaller and resets the meta with all army basics in one book. Starting a new fantasy army is just too expensive for most new players, and 8th ed killed a lot of existing player's interest. Here's hoping 9th brings them back (I may come back, after sitting out most of 8th).

How would 9th makes games smaller? The only way I could think of is by increasing the points costs of units across army books.

As long as they remove the instant kill spells, get rid of that annoying hoarde rule, tame steadfast and boost cavalry, monsters and MI, I'll be happy

Simply put, I can't afford Warhammer Fantasy. Its by far the most expensive of the three core systems with its emphasis on big armies of large regimented units of several miniatures and large monsters, and I already play/collect LOTR and 40K (but I've put an almost complete halt to new purchases for those games anyway considering how expensive they've gotten in recent years). The only miniature I've bought this year is a Storm Talon.

I've eyed some of the Warhammer range with envy in the past, and have considered getting Vampire Counts, Wood Elves, Bretonnians or the Empire because some of the models are quite cool.

But if I can't afford it, I can't play it.

I started getting into Fantasy back when it was in 6th edition with lizardmen, but even then I found it hard to get a game in since there just wasn't as many players around.

When I dropped mini gaming for a while and came back, 8th was already around. I looked into it and saw what I'd be looking at to spend in order to modernize my army for it, the lack of other players, and decided it just wasn't worth it.

In my area now, I've only seen maybe a grand total of two fantasy games in the last year, and both were obviously pre-arranged since the showed up together and left together.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Simply put, I can't afford Warhammer Fantasy. Its by far the most expensive of the three core systems with its emphasis on big armies of large regimented units of several miniatures and large monsters, and I already play/collect LOTR and 40K (but I've put an almost complete halt to new purchases for those games anyway considering how expensive they've gotten in recent years). The only miniature I've bought this year is a Storm Talon.

I've eyed some of the Warhammer range with envy in the past, and have considered getting Vampire Counts, Wood Elves, Bretonnians or the Empire because some of the models are quite cool.

But if I can't afford it, I can't play it.

I totally understand this sentiment. I'm already shopping around figuring out which third party manufacturers to get my Dwarves from if the new Army Book is interesting enough to play. I've decided the bulk of the miniatures will come from Mantic. Sure, the minis aren't super awesome from a quality standpoint, but they're good enough, and the "mega army" box is 117 miniatures for $160.00.

Edit: Your flag says your from Great Britain, so I'll mention that army box is 99 pounds.

If/when they re-do Wood Elves, I'll probably be all in.

Unless, of course, their new models suck.

There is something wrong with fantasy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.

It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).

The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.

The game is not balanced, its just random.

A game of WHFB can be summarised by: advance forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice for 2+ hours, whoever hits the right spell wins the game.

Since practically every army can do this, it gives the game a semblance of "balance"...

WHFB 8th edition was tailor made for kids that can't have a tactical thought to save their lives, hence the extreme randomness of everything and anything in the game (that later spread to 40k with 6th edition). If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).

Balance? Yes cause 40k is SOOO BALANCED

 pities2004 wrote:
There is something wrong with fantasy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.

It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).

The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.

The game is not balanced, its just random.

A game of WHFB can be summarised by: advance forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice for 2+ hours, whoever hits the right spell wins the game.

Since practically every army can do this, it gives the game a semblance of "balance"...

WHFB 8th edition was tailor made for kids that can't have a tactical thought to save their lives, hence the extreme randomness of everything and anything in the game (that later spread to 40k with 6th edition). If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).

Balance? Yes cause 40k is SOOO BALANCED

You must be quoting the wrong post, because you'll never hear me say that 40k has anything resembling balance...

If that was a reply to my "If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).", then I was referring to 6th or 7th edition of WHFB and not 40k.

And the game just isn't that good IMO. This thread made me go to Youtube and watch a couple of battle reports.

No thanks, I have no interest in playing. Pretty models though.

With a tournament meta that is much less skewed than 40k, with a ruleset that, for the most part, is rather solid, I'd honestly say that there isn't too much wrong with Warhammer Fantasy, and would heartily recommend it (barring GW's insane pricing, of course)

Magic isn't nearly as big of a deal. The big spells in question are not only randomly determined, but often require respectively high casting values, and unless you roll two sixes (which granted, tends to be highly likely when you throw 5+ dice at one spell, but not guaranteed), your opponent has a chance to dispel it (or outright remove it, a la Dispel Scroll.

Steadfast has nerfed cavalry, but there are other ways to deal with it. If anything is hurting Fantasy right now, it's the pricing and the number of model required. Many battalions aren't starting armies, they're chunks of starting armies.

I'm wary of 9th ed. though. If GW 40k's 9th ed. with allies and poorly applied meta-shifting rule changes, WHFB might have issues.

All that aside though, it's honestly fine as it is right now. Expensive is probably its biggest issue, but there are plenty of 3rd party models in existence.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
With a tournament meta that is much less skewed than 40k, with a ruleset that, for the most part, is rather solid, I'd honestly say that there isn't too much wrong with Warhammer Fantasy, and would heartily recommend it (barring GW's insane pricing, of course)

Magic isn't nearly as big of a deal. The big spells in question are not only randomly determined, but often require respectively high casting values, and unless you roll two sixes (which granted, tends to be highly likely when you throw 5+ dice at one spell, but not guaranteed), your opponent has a chance to dispel it (or outright remove it, a la Dispel Scroll.

Steadfast has nerfed cavalry, but there are other ways to deal with it. If anything is hurting Fantasy right now, it's the pricing and the number of model required. Many battalions aren't starting armies, they're chunks of starting armies.

I'm wary of 9th ed. though. If GW 40k's 9th ed. with allies and poorly applied meta-shifting rule changes, WHFB might have issues.

All that aside though, it's honestly fine as it is right now. Expensive is probably its biggest issue, but there are plenty of 3rd party models in existence.

Wh40k 6th ed. Wh40k is always about 2 editions behind fantasy.

I was referring to WHFB's 9th. In this particular case, I applied "40k" as a verb, to mean the overall laming and ruination of an edition.

To 40k 9th Edition, in this case, would mean to utterly and totally destroy it, from a balance perspective.

 welshhoppo wrote:
i know the thing that put me off WHFB was the cost.

You need to buy so many models that it is a massive drain on your resources.

Then you need to actually assemble and paint the thousands of models, and that is a drain on your sanity instead.

That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).

For the same money I got 2 large ancients armies in 28mm, or 4 in 15mm, or at least 2 factions in any other game.

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).

Try starting with this:

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/thorgersons-storm-of-steel-135-figures.html

60 hand weapon and shield guys
40 crossbow or handgun guys
20 2-hand weapon guys
4 cannons (can alternatively be made into an organ gun)
(And ten dudes riding what look like huge badgers; might be worth something "counts as" in the new Army Book)

All for 99 pounds.

Im buying the warlord games pike and shotte brittania army starter as the basis for my empire and using the wargames factory to buy my cannon. (in NZD) to get the models from those sets is about 140 dollars. To get the from GW is well over 600 dollars.

So if you like a historic look to your men and want to do empire go look on those sites.

I dont like fantasy too much because im not a fan of the setting they have. Fantasy in generall is pretty well lame (and i feel the same about sci fi too) but since i can use historics and still get a game in for a really cheap price i have found myself enjoying it a bit.

What makes me less interersted in Fantasy? Good Historicals.

The issues of cost and "wound counters" are the issues of someone who really doesn't know the world of WHFB.

Yes, you see some pretty huge units out there, because, well, at times, huge units are pretty awesome, but there's tons of other options. As one other poster pointed out, 8th has actually made this BETTER. More models now actually get to fight whatever the troop type, and monstrous infantry/cavalry got a huge boost in these regards.

The best thing is, unlike 40k where I have to adhere to certain builds to be competitive, there's plenty of builds in fantasy that are completely different to each other. If you don't like huge units, collect Ogre Kingdoms, or a WoC list using predominately Chariots, Monsters and Monstrous Cavalry.

As for cost, yes, it is more expensive, but there's many ways around it once again. Unit fillers are a fantastic example, reducing cost and offering great modelling opportunities (anyone who says you can't be creative on WHFB models is horrendously mistaken). Alternatively, just collect an elite, low model count army. Buy an Ogre Kindoms Battallion, a box of Mournfangs and a character (or convert one) and you've got yourself a decent force. Not enough to play normal games, but enough to learn the game and have some fun. You can easily get that for less than £80, if not cheaper.

Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.

The odd thing is, we tried our a Game of WHFB 8th ,with cardboard bases.(Due to stupid prices of minatures.IOO)

And is was pretty dire, boring over complicated, and too random.

We did the same for Kings Of War.
Even without minatures the game was engaging , tacticaly rich ,fast paced and exciting.
(And a LOT more straight forward than WHFB.)

Whats wrong with WHFB?
Its too expensive, complicated, random and rediuos to play.

And Armies Of Arcana, Kings Of War, Pike And Shotte,etc are much more fun, cheaper and enjoyable to play.IOO.

The reason I haven't gotten off my ass to put together all of my Vampire Counts is model count. For my 1000pt army it's fine. Block of 50 skeletons, a Vampire, a Necromancer, and a few killy units. 3000pts? Holy feth look at how many models I have to paint.

Coupled with my absolutely glacial painting rate... and yeah, I'll wait and see if 9th does anything about the model count. If not, they will stay in their box.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.

I have never heard much flak about folks using other companies' minis - or by proxy did you mean something more along the lines of 'these crossbowman are actually handgunners, and this wizard with them is really an engineer with a long rifle'?

As for dioramic filler... I play Kings of War - and the reaction that people have, as long as the base size is right, is to go 'ooohhhhh!' (Sadly, I was one of the folks going 'ooohhhh!' - it was not my army.... )

For Warhammer... I am not certain, some folks that I have heard of (though never seen in life) seem to think that unless the models are all GW and the movement tray is filled past the brim with minis then they will whine.

But the groups that I have actually played with really do not care - and all the armies are made from a mix of figures from many companies.

And this was the case before everyone abandoned WHFB for KoW.

The Auld Grump

Proxies and unit fillers in Warhammer Fantasy, like any game, depend on your opponent.

You'll find some people who won't play against you unless your models are all GW, and only from that army, and as WYSIWIG as possible. You'll find people who won't play against you if you have unit fillers, even if made with all GW parts.

As usual, feel free to play against those people or not for your own reasons. It's not like these attitudes are exclusive to Games Workshop games. I've been berated on these boards for suggesting alternate models in Infinity.