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Jimsolo wrote: I'm not interested in it because you need so many damn models to play, way more than 40k.
I also think the idea of formations is a huge turnoff. Terrain is one of my most favorite parts of the game, and most units can't fit on/in any of the terrain bar the largest of hills in Fantasy. I don't think I've ever seen a Fantasy game where the terrain got used to any great effect, and I've never seen one in person where the terrain had been given ANY kind of aesthetically pleasing setup. Forest elves that march in formation strikes a sour note to me, and I want them to break up and filter through the woods like the guerilla fighters I think they should be.
Still, Fantasy has been on the rise in my area, rather than the reverse. If it keeps going like that, I'll have to cave and buy an army eventually. Probably ogres.
This.
Surprised nobody has pointed out a well documented, massive flaw in 8th - Cavalry. They got nerfed!
20 heavily armoured knights, or more, charging full tilt at a block of infantry from the flank or rear, will not break them, because of steadfast and the fact that the infantry outnumber the cavalry?
Very bizarre.
Yeah, steadfast should really have been cancelled by flank and rear charges, just like the rank bonuses.
To be honest though, historically cavalry wasn't actually that effective against massed infantry. The only times it succeeded was when the infantry in question lost their cool, or when they had support from infantry (hammer and anvil tactic).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/23 12:49:47
Aftermath. wrote: In my area Fantasy is dead. I haven't seen a game played in over a year. 8th edition killed it.
In my area, 8th edition completely revitalized WHFB. Prior to that, stores in North Metro Atlanta might have 2-3 tournaments (combined) in a year, and each tournament might have 6-8 people show up. Even three years out from the advent of 8th, just my preferred FLGS alone will have 4-6 tournaments per year, and we typically have 20-odd show up for each.
I think the reason for the game being relatively successful here is because the store owner really supported it. He loved the game, built 3-4 armies, and would play lots of games himself. Having the game out and being played encouraged more people to start playing themselves.
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Tannhauser42 wrote: It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.
I just wanted to point out that the bolded part hasn't really been true since the advent of 8th edition, supporting attacks, Horde formations, and Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry.
Yep. Saying that the soldiers in the back don't do anything is highly erroneous. They do a lot of important things, such as stopping the regiment from running away, and helping the guys in the front punch the other dudes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/23 14:03:13
heartserenade wrote: If you want to go into Fantasy but don't like the price, buy models from 3rd party sources. I think this would be a great opportunity to point these out, and the great thing about this is you can also use the same models on different systems like say, KoW. Do take note that more often than not they will vary considerably with GW equivalents in terms of proportion and style, so you have to mix and match a bit or buy a whole army from that 3rd party source, Which is not bad considering I find most of them better than GW's offerings.
Perry Miniatures have a War of the Roses, late medieval plastic line. The Perry brothers also work with GW so if you'll notice the style is same-ish, only with realistic proportions and armor and less skulls. These miniatures could be used to represent Brettonia or The Empire and are truly works of art since you get a lot in a box in terms of bits, units and customization (more than GW ones in fact!) for more than half the price. The cavalry box is really good and I haven't seen a product as good as this, and for this price.... damn.
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62
Fireforge Games sell both infantry and cavalry of the middle medieval category. Again they work well as Bretonnian troops and cavalry as well as Empire, although i would lean more on Bretonnia. I can totally see myself building an entire Bretonnian army with Fireforge templar knights, and the added bonus of not having ridiculous helmets is icing on the gravy (and I sometimes confuse my popular sayings). They will be also releasing a Mongol Horde infantry, perfect for barbarians and such.
http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore.html
Mantic Games, the makers of Kings of War, is of course on the list. Their undead range is super top notch, followed closely by the Orc range so if you want to make Vampire Counts or an Orc army, you should totally consider Mantic for the whole army or as parts of the whole army. With the undead you can get away with all big blocks (zombies, skeletons) with Mantic and the heroes and such GW. With the Orcs, the style is too far for my own level of comfort but if it works for you, then it's okay.
They also have a Dwarf line, and they're okay-ish. I've heard bad things about the elf line but I've also heard that they would work if they are painted more as fae/fairy elves rather than LotR elves. The Basilea line offers units for human armies and... I wouldn't recommend them. Sculpts are too ugly, and you're better off buying from the previos 3rd party sources I mentioned.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html
Cryonicleech wrote: With a tournament meta that is much less skewed than 40k, with a ruleset that, for the most part, is rather solid, I'd honestly say that there isn't too much wrong with Warhammer Fantasy, and would heartily recommend it (barring GW's insane pricing, of course)
Magic isn't nearly as big of a deal. The big spells in question are not only randomly determined, but often require respectively high casting values, and unless you roll two sixes (which granted, tends to be highly likely when you throw 5+ dice at one spell, but not guaranteed), your opponent has a chance to dispel it (or outright remove it, a la Dispel Scroll.
Steadfast has nerfed cavalry, but there are other ways to deal with it. If anything is hurting Fantasy right now, it's the pricing and the number of model required. Many battalions aren't starting armies, they're chunks of starting armies.
I'm wary of 9th ed. though. If GW40k's 9th ed. with allies and poorly applied meta-shifting rule changes, WHFB might have issues.
All that aside though, it's honestly fine as it is right now. Expensive is probably its biggest issue, but there are plenty of 3rd party models in existence.
Wh40k 6th ed. Wh40k is always about 2 editions behind fantasy.
CurrentlyUnknown wrote: I started playing Fantasy in 6th edition, basically 1999/2000. I went to a bunch of GTs, local events, and did my fair share of well. Made some good friends and had a great time, both competitively at larger events and locally. The game was fun, and eventually every army got a book. There were balance issues. Vampire Counts led by a necromancer, for example, were very strong. Royal Air Force Brets, Clan Skyre oriented Skaven, Daemonic Legion from Storm of Chaos, the Slayer army from the same, and Wood Elves were all at a different power level than most of the other books in the game. But you could build lists for most things where if you played well and had a bit of luck, you could win the uphill battle. List design was paramount, as a bad list in a bad army was basically doomed to failure. There were other problems. The way magic was structured (along with dispel scrolls), the only reasonable choices were to bring a ton of magic (lvl 4, 3x lvl2) or just a lvl1 scroll caddy. Skirmishers were too powerful, being highly maneuverable and with very different rules about how they ranked up during combat. Finally, cavalry units tended to be the most potent offensive choices, and melee infantry were generally inefficient if they cost more than a few points each. HW/Shield was the ubiquitous choice for armament. Fear was a super strong mechanic, as was terror, and there were a number of large beasties that could threaten large swathes of the battlefield while being reasonably safe from retaliation due to LoS.
Then 7th edition came. GW clearly had their eyes set on some of the above. Skirmishers were nerfed incredibly. Mages only got to use their own dice IIRC. But inconsistency of army books remained. Cavalry got stronger. Dragons, steam tanks, and hydras all became common sights. Good intentions, but I thing the end result was the exacerbation of the root issues. Only a few armies were actually competitive. Within those armies, only a small chunk was actually usable.
So out came 8th. A major overhaul. Magic was random. Point allocation shifted dramatically. Gone were the 2 core unit requirement. Now it was a percentage of points. But people still wanted to bring their lords! So no longer could you play 2000 or 2250...games now needed to be 2400, 2500, or even 3000 (a large game when I started...I played exactly 0 of these for about 7 years). Infantry were given numerous buffs. Books began becoming rapidly released. But the soul of the game is gone. I've played about 20 games, watched dozens more. The game devolves into a grand melee about midfield. Magic removes nearly whole units at a time. Given the massive units, all on the same size board as before, room to maneuver went down greatly. Almost no LoS rules, and terrain no longer hindered movement as much. Arrange blocks of 10x4+ 20mm or 25mm bases and push them forward. Throw bucketfuls of dice. Hope yours end up more 3+'s and 4+'s, and your opponent more the 1's. Get off that irresistable spell X that removes your opponents main 400pt unit from the board. What fun.
So, in short, the game went from a game that had its issues, but was very focused on movement and the application of force to a game that perhaps has fewer mechanical problems but is mostly just an exercise in dice rolling.
Yeah, I'm not too happy about the regiment erasing spells either. I get that it was to counter steadfast, but a much better counter in this case would have been to have steadfast be cancelled out by flanking a unit if it is already engaged in combat with another unit. Cavalry would then be very important for getting those anti-Steadfast flanks and there would have been a greater emphasis on positioning and movement. But nope, Purple vortex of death.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/27 18:36:17
The Shadow wrote: WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.
Well a more fair comparison then would be between WHFB and another Massive-battle game, like Kings of War
KoW Orc Army Set 49.99£ 32 Page Mini Kings of War Core Rulebook 3 Plastic Resin Trolls 1 Gore Rider Chariot 20 Plastic Orcs with Command 20 Plastic Greatax with Command 10 Plastic Resin Gore Riders
Total: 54 miniatures and a rulebook ( 40 Infantry, 10 Infantry, 1 chariot, 3 monstrous infantry)
More for less
How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/27 22:15:57
How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?
If you build it "as is" it's 580 points (without any magic items) which is totally playable, I usually play 1000-1500 point games. Quality-wise it's pretty nice, I prefer their resin-mix to GWs finecast. GW beats them in the bitz department though, Only the plastic Orcs and Greataxes has extra bits (weapons and snotlings mostly). As for converting I dont see why not, it's just plastic and resin.
How many points do you get in the GW set though? Granted, there is still a 20 pound difference between them, but as they say, the devil is in the details. Spare bits are always good. I tend to use them to build characters. Much cheaper than buying the blister from GW.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/27 22:47:24
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.
By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.
I can play tic-tac-toe for free.
It is true that some games are free. Price is not the only factor that a player considers when purchasing a game. Tic-Tac-Toe does not appeal to many wargamers. It lacks depth, does not have miniatures, has no background/story etc.
The games that I mentioned above all have miniatures, interesting gameplay, and background. They are also displayed on store shelves right next to Fantasy. The comparison for gamers dollars is a very realistic one.
Where you are, yes. I have not seen a set of infinity nor malifaux in any of the FLGS I've been in. I did see a set of AT-43 though.
Da Boss wrote: Depending on how you equipped the stuff in the WFB Orc battalion I reckon it would come to maybe 300-400 points at best. The models are a little nicer, but it's down to individual tastes in some ways too- some may like the slightly more understated Mantic Orcs, others may prefer the more cartoony but more detailed GW Orcs.
Hmm so it's either pay more for fewer, but higher detailed models with many spare components, or pay less for more but not as finely detailed models with no few components.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/28 00:36:57
azreal13 wrote: Anybody want to come in with me on developing a 10mm mass battle system and associated mini range, then Kickstarting it?
(This is tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it...)
Increase it to 28mm heroic, and maybe.
I don't like the 10mm scale, too tiny for my liking. Which is a pity, becuase the Dropzone Commander rules (which are in 10mm scale) are pretty solid.
I'm not a fan of the alternating turns system, but I do like how the FoC scales with the size of the game, and with how you have to move the objectives off of the field, instead of just sitting there.
Yeah, BFG would have been a great gateway to the Wh40k world.
Cancelling that was a financial blunder, imo. Especially when you factor in the demographic of people who like space combat.
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well.
Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well.
Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well.
I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer.
Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff.
But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
I theorize that some of the CEO's cocaine may have ended up in the mix.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 21:49:23
